[ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated]

[wasubii]

Off topic much?

[drawingthesun]

Do KnC mine in Sweden?

Sweden is also considering whether to tax bitcoin miners as businesses, stating only that his agency is considering its position on the matter.


http://www.coindesk.com/sweden-regulate-bitcoin-asset/

Doesn't matter, KNC pay tax on the profit they make from selling their product. As far as I am aware they do not have any large scale mining operation in place.

[minerpart]

Doesn't matter,

Well it would matter a lot if they had a farm and the Gov started to tax the coin they mined. But seems they don't.

[finlof]

Probably, Ken didn't do the calculations before buying this IP.

Perhaps it wouldn't make great sense these days to start a mining company with the sole intention of developing 55nm hardware given the time to market versus the ever increasing difficulty factor, but surely it makes sense in ActM's situation as we managed to secure a team who will develop the full custom 28nm chip and additionally provide a stop gap solution with the 55nm.  I think it is grossly unfair to speak like that Vigil and it reflects badly on you as an individual who can't seem to get over your anger.  What a cheap dig that was.

HOW THE FUCK IS THIS GROSSLY UNFAIR AND A CHEAP DIG???  KEN ADMITTED IT AFTER I POSTED A BRIEF RUNDOWN OF OTHER 55nm CHIPS?!?!?  SERIOUSLY WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?

Ken, how long have you known that the eAsic 28nm chip you promised everyone was never going to materialize?

If the CEO of ACtM says on an open forum that eASIC are working on our full custom 28nm ASIC we have shipped product then you can be sure that's a reality.

FIFY...

When money is tight people go for the budget option. We can be the Walmart of bitcoin mining why not. So long as we can produce at volume we can do very well from 55nm.

in order to get an idea of the kind of money to be made from chip sales (projected to be $40 mil this year), here's some research I did on the direct chip selling from ActM competitors (which currently have working chips and products they are selling and delivering).  Avalon has been selling their 55nm chips for quite some time now.  they currently sell for 15BTC for a reel of 2500 (http://avalon-asics.com/).  that's 0.006BTC/chip.  their chip is rated at "1.5-1.6 GH/s at 1.0V with 2.5W per GHs" (on the high side of 55nm chips).  that's currently $5/chip, so $3.33/Gh.  Bitmain also started selling their 55nm chip in December (same chip they use in their 180Gh/s Antminers) which is rated anywhere from 1.6Gh/s at 1.07W all the way to 3.2Gh/s at 5.2W (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=364236.0).  they were selling 10000 chips for 100BTC, which is 0.01BTC/chip, which is $8/chip or $2.50/Gh.  I'm sure the prices are going to come down soon (if they havent already), or possibly they will just be replacing it with their new 28nm chips soon.  if ActM had chips available to sell and deliver now the prices would have to be somewhere in the same range that Avalon is selling their slower chips - around $5/chip or 0.0058BTC/chip for bulk sales.  in order to sell $40 mil of these chips it would take 8 million chips @ $5/chip (remember that in just 3 days this chip is technically worth ~25% less due to difficulty change, and therefore could/should technically sell for less).

So my 1st question is what price can ActM mass sell these 1.9Gh chips and still be profitable?  of course that will be speculation now because we cannot be certain what the value of bitcoin will be when the chips are released, but we still need to know projections at current bitcoin prices with adjustments for difficulty changes for when the chips are expected to be available for sale.

2nd question, and probably more important, when will the datasheet/reference design be available for those would would buy the chips to make use of them?  will this be done in time to allow timely manufacturing of boards for these massive projected chip sales?

Good info, just getting ready to do this myself.

[zumzero]

Well just as well I PM'd Ken on your behalf.

You've PM'd him with all the questions that have been ignored/unanswered?

gee - must have been a long PM

No, I asked three questions related to the points you have raised in the last couple of hours.  I hope you don't mind me taking the liberty of adding my own twist of diplomacy as I know it can be incongruous to your methods.

[minerpart]

HOW THE F#@K IS THIS GROSSLY UNFAIR

First off calm down, do you really need to get so excited?
Secondly Ken has done all the calulations to see that commisioning the 55nm chip will make money. The question was about the price-point in the market that the chip would take. Ken was saying he has yet to price the chip for the retail and bulk-buy market. So he is talking about profit margins - not if there is any profit atall.

I know it is hard for a lot of you to keep up with what's going on but please try to stay calm if you don't understand something instead of jumping to conclusions and having a shouting match.

[kleeck]

HOW THE F#@K IS THIS GROSSLY UNFAIR

First off calm down, do you really need to get so excited?
Secondly Ken has done all the calulations to see that commisioning the 55nm chip will make money. The question was about the price-point in the market that the chip would take. Ken was saying he has yet to price the chip for the retail and bulk-buy market.

I know it is hard for a lot of you to keep up with what's going on but please try to stay calm if you don't understand something instead of jumping to conclusions and having a shouting match.

Haven't you heard? This is how you get the privilege of the title, "Realist" around here:

1. Take a quote (feel free to disregard context!)
2. Make an assumption on said quote (ensure that whatever liberties you take with the assumption fit your mood and/or agenda)
3. RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEE!
4. Pretend your assumptions are now facts but don't you dare feel the need to prove this! <-- VERY IMPORTANT STEP!
5. Label all counter-arguments as "cheer leading".
6. Pretend that your method of deduction is logical. <-- Optional step. Feel free to skip.
7. Rage some more. Harder this time. I SAID HARDER!
8. More bitching about cheer leading, disregard arguments that you whole argument is based on an assumption that is probably wrong. It doesn't matter. You're MAD!
9. Enter circular reasoning.
10. Enjoy being the realist around here! God knows we need you!

[zumzero]

HOW THE FUCK IS THIS GROSSLY UNFAIR AND A CHEAP DIG???  KEN ADMITTED IT AFTER I POSTED A BRIEF RUNDOWN OF OTHER 55nm CHIPS?!?!?  SERIOUSLY WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?

Bloody 'el, calm your jets!

I have re-read the last couple of pages and agree I was mistaken to assume that Vigil was having a go.  He was saying what he believed to be factual and if I'd not missed the crucial coma in his sentence perhaps I wouldn't have jumped to the wrong conclusion.  My judgement was clouded by Vigil's recent turn from pro-ActM to calling it a scam and having cheap digs at such things like the volume on CT after Vigils theory that we were already mining was shown to be wrong.

I apologise sincerely for making this rash judgement, for the unfortunate language I used and for upsetting anyone who I may have offended.

Your turn..

[bitciondad]

wow biggest bitcoin scam ever lol  unlucky

[wasubii]

Well just as well I PM'd Ken on your behalf.

You've PM'd him with all the questions that have been ignored/unanswered?

gee - must have been a long PM

No, I asked three questions related to the points you have raised in the last couple of hours.  I hope you don't mind me taking the liberty of adding my own twist of diplomacy as I know it can be incongruous to your methods.

Actually you're right - I guess i need to reassess my patience levels again. Hope you get some decent answers - mind posting the exact questions here while we wait for the big K-dawg to answer? I'd like to see the wording

[JoTheKhan]

HOW THE F#@K IS THIS GROSSLY UNFAIR

First off calm down, do you really need to get so excited?
Secondly Ken has done all the calulations to see that commisioning the 55nm chip will make money. The question was about the price-point in the market that the chip would take. Ken was saying he has yet to price the chip for the retail and bulk-buy market.

I know it is hard for a lot of you to keep up with what's going on but please try to stay calm if you don't understand something instead of jumping to conclusions and having a shouting match.

Haven't you heard? This is how you get the privilege of the title, "Realist" around here:

1. Take a quote (feel free to disregard context!)
2. Make an assumption on said quote (ensure that whatever liberties you take with the assumption fit your mood and/or agenda)
3. RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEE!
4. Pretend your assumptions are now facts but don't you dare feel the need to prove this! <-- VERY IMPORTANT STEP!
5. Label all counter-arguments as "cheer leading".
6. Pretend that your method of deduction is logical. <-- Optional step. Feel free to skip.
7. Rage some more. Harder this time. I SAID HARDER!
8. More bitching about cheer leading, disregard arguments that you whole argument is based on an assumption that is probably wrong. It doesn't matter. You're MAD!
9. Enter circular reasoning.
10. Enjoy being the realist around here! God knows we need you!

Step 7 is definitely optional too because I think I am a realist. I don't remember raging.

[zumzero]

Well just as well I PM'd Ken on your behalf.

You've PM'd him with all the questions that have been ignored/unanswered?

gee - must have been a long PM

No, I asked three questions related to the points you have raised in the last couple of hours.  I hope you don't mind me taking the liberty of adding my own twist of diplomacy as I know it can be incongruous to your methods.

Actually you're right - I guess i need to reassess my patience levels again. Hope you get some decent answers - mind posting the exact questions here while we wait for the big K-dawg to answer? I'd like to see the wording

My pleasure.  Although I think if Vince is happy to continue with organising the weekly Q&A he should be our point of contact.

Hi Ken,

Following some recent activity on the thread I thought I'd take it upon myself to put a couple of things to you.  If you have the time and are happy to respond then I would be looking to post your reply on the thread.  If you are unable to do so I respect that and will wait for the weekly update.


Without committing to a specific date are you able to estimate how
long until the 55nm chips are ready?

Are you able to provide any details which support the decision to pursue the development of the 55nm chips understanding that it is popular belief that this technology is approaching the end of its useful lifespan in Bitcoin mining.

Will the boards and controllers for the 55nm chips be the same as the 28nm chips?

Cheers,

zumzero

[kleeck]

HOW THE F#@K IS THIS GROSSLY UNFAIR

First off calm down, do you really need to get so excited?
Secondly Ken has done all the calulations to see that commisioning the 55nm chip will make money. The question was about the price-point in the market that the chip would take. Ken was saying he has yet to price the chip for the retail and bulk-buy market.

I know it is hard for a lot of you to keep up with what's going on but please try to stay calm if you don't understand something instead of jumping to conclusions and having a shouting match.

Haven't you heard? This is how you get the privilege of the title, "Realist" around here:

1. Take a quote (feel free to disregard context!)
2. Make an assumption on said quote (ensure that whatever liberties you take with the assumption fit your mood and/or agenda)
3. RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEE!
4. Pretend your assumptions are now facts but don't you dare feel the need to prove this! <-- VERY IMPORTANT STEP!
5. Label all counter-arguments as "cheer leading".
6. Pretend that your method of deduction is logical. <-- Optional step. Feel free to skip.
7. Rage some more. Harder this time. I SAID HARDER!
8. More bitching about cheer leading, disregard arguments that you whole argument is based on an assumption that is probably wrong. It doesn't matter. You're MAD!
9. Enter circular reasoning.
10. Enjoy being the realist around here! God knows we need you!

Step 7 is definitely optional too because I think I am a realist. I don't remember raging.

None of these steps apply to a true realist. That's the joke! 

[JoTheKhan]

Oh, whoosh.

Anyways guys!

We are selling Ukyo shares on Crypto-Trade to recover our losses on Bitfunder.

We will start moving Investors shares to Crypto-Trade within the next 7 days.

The 7th Day is on Tuesday (I guess Thursday? is 7 Days after the 22nd) I believe.

[kleeck]

Oh, whoosh.

Anyways guys!

We are selling Ukyo shares on Crypto-Trade to recover our losses on Bitfunder.

We will start moving Investors shares to Crypto-Trade within the next 7 days.

The 7th Day is on Tuesday (I guess Thursday? is 7 Days after the 22nd) I believe.

the 29th will be exactly 7 days from the 22nd. My guess is it will start in earnest tomorrow.

[keepinithamsta]

At this specific point in time, I don't know why anyone would be expecting anything more than another delay.

[wasubii]

@ Vince and Zumzero

For the weekly Q&A

1) What is the estimated $ per GH costs for the full deployment of the 55nm chips. This includes (but not limited to) chip cost, board cost, controller cost, set up costs, coding costs, rent, power, staffing, security etc.

2) What were the fixed costs for the 55nm chip. This includes (but not limited to) IP costs from the two new engineers (monetary or otherwise), NRE costs for the tapeout, fixed design costs for boards (if not amortised into the per unit deployment cost in Q1).

3) What are the limits (if any) to the space/power available in our chosen data centre.

Those are my top three questions. I don't want to add any more in case these three are not answered. I hope they are not brushed aside.

[Flashman]

For just the 55nm chips, I'm spitballing numbers that look something like, $500 a wafer, 200 chips a wafer, 2gh a chip, 10c a chip for balling and packaging. So about a buck thirty a gigahash in chips, say a buck 50 with NRE amortized over a crap load. Probably $2 a Gh our cost by the time they are on boards...

If the numbers come close to that ballpark, it's making sense.

[minerpart]

2) What were the fixed costs for the 55nm chip. This includes (but not limited to) IP costs from the two new engineers (monetary or otherwise), NRE costs for the tapeout, fixed design costs for boards (if not amortised into the per unit deployment cost in Q1).

Well the chip is not yet in production so the costs are not yet known.
We have taped-out. We don't know when that was done and we don't know how close we are to the 'Silicon Process'. So the cost of getting the chip working on a board is yet to be discovered.



http://www.umc.com/english/design/e.asp

[minerpart]

"UMC first taped-out customer 55nm SDDI products in late 2012. Achieving 15 million accumulated shipments and mature production yields in just one year is a significant milestone and highlights our engineering and manufacturing strength as a worldwide foundry specialty technology leader. With our 300mm Fab 12A in Tainan, Taiwan and Singapore's 300mm Fab 12i both providing ample capacity support and established economies of scale, we look forward to bringing additional 55nm products to volume production as many new products are scheduled for the design-in stage in early 2014."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/umc-surpasses-15-million-shipments-100000385.html