Official Thread: AMT

[FrictionlessCoin]

Exactly.  That is why their story is completely believable.

Its entirely believable they are cramming bitfury boards in lian li cases, and its just as believable they intend to put Bitmine boards in their newer miners.
 
Whats not believable is that they will receive bitmine chips before bitmine themselves, nor that they will achieve vastly better performance per watt from bitmine chips than bitmine. Or for that matter, that they can legally avoid VAT in europe.  If you cant believe their delivery date claims, nor their hardware specs, or almost anything else they say, good luck ordering with them. Perhaps at least the Lian Li case may prove to be genuine.

Bitmine.ch has already said in their web page that AMT is the exclusive U.S.A. distributor.

Exporting product does not require paying VAT in europe.

Also, there is a price differential with the Bitmine.ch products,  that could be difference in cost for the cases and power supply and the absence of taxes.  Internet sales in US are tax free.

So if I'm buying Bitmine.ch stuff from the U.S.A., who do I expect to trust?!

[Puppet]

Bitmine.ch has already said in their web page that AMT is the exclusive U.S.A. distributor.

Exporting product does not require paying VAT in europe.

Here is what he said:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=304605.msg3895213#msg3895213
You can not legally sell stuff in the EU without charging VAT. Simple as that. Either they are breaking the law, or they are lying.

Also, there is a price differential with the Bitmine.ch products,  that could be difference in cost for the cases and power supply and the absence of taxes.  Internet sales in US are tax free.

I never mentioned prices.

So if I'm buying Bitmine.ch stuff from the U.S.A., who do I expect to trust?!

Cant help you there. I guess no one. If it makes you feel any better, if you live in Russia its not like you have great choices. Bitmine's exclusive distributor there is 50BTC. And the one in China doesnt seem all that much better at first glance. Doesnt bitmine themselves sell to overseas customers?

[FrictionlessCoin]

Bitmine.ch has already said in their web page that AMT is the exclusive U.S.A. distributor.

Exporting product does not require paying VAT in europe.

Here is what he said:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=304605.msg3895213#msg3895213
You can not legally sell stuff in the EU without charging VAT. Simple as that. Either they are breaking the law, or they are lying.

Also, there is a price differential with the Bitmine.ch products,  that could be difference in cost for the cases and power supply and the absence of taxes.  Internet sales in US are tax free.

I never mentioned prices.

So if I'm buying Bitmine.ch stuff from the U.S.A., who do I expect to trust?!

Cant help you there. I guess no one. If it makes you feel any better, if you live in Russia its not like you have great choices. Bitmine's exclusive distributor there is 50BTC. And the one in China doesnt seem all that much better at first glance. Doesnt bitmine themselves sell to overseas customers?

Why would I buy Bitmine.ch stuff from AMT if I am in Europe?   If you are in Europe, you buy it from Bitmin.ch.

If you buy it from AMT and you are in the USA then you don't pay VAT.  So what the hell are you talking about?

[Puppet]

FFS try to read before posting.  Did you read the link I posted where AMT claimed:

Customers in the EU will not have to pay VAT or Import taxes

As for your personal situation, you posted this hypothetical

So if I'm buying Bitmine.ch stuff from the U.S.A,  who do I expect to trust?!

I assumed that meant you where ordering from the USA. Obviously if you are in the EU I see no reason to buy bitmine gear from AMT.

[dreward]

VAT is interesting. You are correct in that someone has to pay the VAT on everything purchased in Europe. This usually occurs at customs. However VAT is a value added tax (hence VAT) which is subtly different than a sales tax in that as a business you get to deduct the VAT you pay on goods from the VAT you return to the government assuming that the goods are being used for a valid business purpose (and mining bitcoins is definitely a valid business purpose) so if you have to charge VAT on your services or anything else then the VAT will probably be a wash. Also if you sell your miner second hand in the EC you can recoup your VAT then.

VAT is not simple and I think AMT has taken a rather simplistic approach which will probably turn around and bite them, however I do not believe they having willingly lied about this I think they have been ill advised or viewed it like shipping items out of state here (now when you ship out of state in the USA the vendor does not have to collect sales tax for the state governments, however in theory everyone is supposed to pay sales tax voluntarily to their state government when they bring such items in state, this is almost never done)

[ISAWHIM]

FFS try to read before posting.  Did you read the link I posted where AMT claimed:

Customers in the EU will not have to pay VAT or Import taxes

Um, because they are shipping an EU-product to EU, possibly from EU... dumbass. Thus, no VAT, or "They are not charging VAT, because it is already included in the price." Not 100% sure, but if it was MFG in EU, and shipped to EU, I think that qualifies it for "non VAT goods". Doesn't take long to fly over there and assemble a few machines at a friends house/office. Also doesn't cost them that much, for them, if they value the boards at the prices they paid for them. (Just because YOU pay $6000 for the item, doesn't make the VAT they pay, on $6000. That is only if they don't pay it, then you get charged on that price, as that is the only price you have proof of, for value. It is not the same for a business. Who also does not pay "consumer-level shipping prices.")

Seems you are confusing "individual MSRP", with "volume purchases". THEY are not paying what YOU pay, when you buy just 1-8 miners. THEY have worked out a deal, buying THOUSANDS of boards, for less than MSRP. Do you think Best-Buy is getting alien-ware computers for $3,000 and selling for $3,000, because the website says $3,000. That is what the website charges a single customer, if they are dumb enough to pay for it from that website. The stores get the computers for about $1,500 and sell for $2,800 which is how stores often sell cheaper than the websites. Why, because they are buying in bulk, and because the price MSRP on the website makes the store price of $2,800 look like a bargain.

Miners are the same thing. BFL will gladly sell you ONE or TEN for $22,000. However, if you call them and say, "Hey, I want 2,000 miners.", they will not hesitate to sell them for $11,000 each, because it is only about $2,000 in physical equipment. Same with all ASIC chips. Now that they are in full production, I am sure the hardware costs are down to about 1/10th the asking price. So we, by demand, are paying 1000% more then it costs to produce them, from the MFG, as a small-order consumer. Welcome to the world of technology.

(Though I still suspect BFL of using your hardware, and delaying shipment, because they were simply mining with your hardware first. For the purpose of getting more BTC. Thus, using the customers for their own "stock" of miners, and subsequently, using them to purchase the used miners, once they were essentially worthless to mine with. Even the block-chain reinforced that theory. After shipping all the units, difficulty never climbed. But prior to shipment, it skyrocketed. How did that happen?!?!?! lol. Oh, they were just testing them for three months, to be sure it worked. lol.)

I-phone costs of production is about $45-$65, sells for $450-$650 each. Buy 10,000 of them, you get them for only $225-$325 each. buy 100,000 and you get them for $112.50-$162.50 each.

Puppet, you are seriously living up to the title of your name... you are a puppet. You have no interest in buying, so just go away. Go buy more 7970's dressed-up as new cards, paying the same price for the same power-hungry cards, and go back to mining alt-coins. You obviously got burned by buying an overpriced ASIC, and need someone to take it out on. Go take it out on the person responsible for your actions... You.

As for delays... those delays are on NEW ORDERS... AMT has had these orders in for months. Those delays are not for units previously purchased, those delays are for units/chips being purchased now. Because of the volume of OLD PURCHASES that had to be filled. (Of which, AMT is part of.) Thus, why everyone is pushing back dates, and prices.

P.S. That multi-million dollar cash-out that just happened over the last few hours... Guess what that was for... Purchasing more miners, in bulk. (Not at a consumer level.) Expect a big BTC value price hike soon. Along with a future massive Diff-hike by income-tax time, in the 2nd week of March. (See the trend?) BTC to $6000... What will you have, miners making BTC, or BTC that you cashed-out, because you thought this price-hike was over? We went from millions of dollars listed on 15 exchanges, to billions of dollars listed on 38 in a month. Next will be trillions of dollars on 120 exchanges. (Which includes all the legitimate and larger forex exchanges now adopting BTC.)

P.P.S. AMT, update your website... Friday the 27th is over... Also, fix the Weight and Dimensions info for the 1.2THs... one says 18LBs, the other details says 8LBs... Sizes are also off an inch or two, between the two pages. (Redundant info anyways, list the info on one tab or the other, not both.)

P.P.P.S. Hardware is no longer growing exponentially, only the volume of hardware being purchased is growing exponentially, which will also soon stop. THs watches and cell-phones are coming, but that will be the last line of advancement. I-Miner coming soon, to a store near you! Walmart discount, $300, 100THs units, sold by the millions, right next to MP3-players and Tablets and Video-Games. Made in China, a day late and a dollar short. Release date, Summer 2015. Pre-order now!

[Puppet]

Um, because they are shipping an EU-product to EU, possibly from EU... dumbass. Thus, no VAT

Sorry, couldnt read further than that. Please get a clue.

[andjo327]

Um, because they are shipping an EU-product to EU, possibly from EU... dumbass. Thus, no VAT

Sorry, couldnt read further than that. Please get a clue.

Haha this is funny. Could not resist posting in a thread I don't really belong. I live in the EU and I can confirm we do have VAT here in the EU. Companies not collecting VAT from customers (customers not being a corporation) is committing tax evasion and they do have to state the VAT on the invoice and not just include it in the price. This whole AMT thing quite funny and I am looking forward to see what is going to happen. Will they ship or will they run or will they maybe be charged with tax evasion.

edit - And I could add, if this is not an EU-product shipped from EU but instead a product shipped from the US, VAT will be collected at customs. If you manage not to pay VAT, you are commiting tax evasion, there is no way around this. This specific statement from AMT is fraudulent.

[swiftshoot]

Well, on the 23rd, I got an email that they would try to ship my unit by the 24th and give me my tracking number.... It is the 28th now and I am still waiting for my tracking number so I don't think they even shipped my unit.  I have bought the 128gh/s unit cause I wanted the unit faster.  For the 2 months others will be waiting, I will amass about 9 BTC worth combined with 313 GHS (miner and Cloud Mining) at @ 7k USD at current prices.

If I include my 7950s and 7970, I would then have close to 9k USD from 375GHS power.

By then they may have a larger unit for sale.

However, their track record to date on delivering on time is a flop. 
Since I ordered the 128ghs unit, it should have already shipped to me.  I have nothing to date.

waiting impatiently as I already got burned by BFL so it is not nice that I should be waiting for a product they have in stock.

[ISAWHIM]

And VAT is handled by the SHIPPING, which is stated at the time of the purchase. Thus, invoiced. Thus, as they stated, "taken care of".

But if they are shipping from EU, where the chips are made, and possibly some of the miners... Then they DO NOT have to pay VAT, since that is EU to EU shipping. Again, "taken care of".

They didn't say they are not paying VAT, they said YOU are not going to be required to pay VAT. It is an option for businesses to chose to pay it, by including it in the price, or let the customer pay it. Obviously, they said they have it taken care of. If they don't, then what does it matter, you pay the VAT. YOU are ordering it from another country and being penalized/taxed for it. It is YOUR job to pay YOUR taxes. VAT is YOUR tax for buying something from a non-EU location. To them, it is simply a deductible refund.

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/index_en.htm

paid to the revenue authorities by the seller of the goods, who is the "taxable person", but it is actually paid by the buyer to the seller as part of the price. It is thus an indirect tax.

Indirect tax on YOU. (You are the one paying, as with any other tax. Even if they are the ones paying on your behalf. Again, that is only if they don't ship you your miner from EU itself.)

Also...

What is a taxable person?
For VAT purposes, a taxable person is any individual, partnership, company or whatever which supplies taxable goods and services in the course of business.
However, if the annual turnover of this person is less than a certain limit (the threshold), which differs according to the Member State, the person does not have to charge VAT on their sales.

There is also mention of "Things made in EU, being exported, then re-entering EU", which makes those certain items a zero-deduction, or lower VAT rate. (Eg, producing something in EU, sending it to another country for assembly, and returning it, for zero-VAT, or VAT-exempt.) At any rate, if they say it is covered, then it is covered.

[ISAWHIM]

Well, on the 23rd, I got an email that they would try to ship my unit by the 24th and give me my tracking number.... It is the 28th now and I am still waiting for my tracking number so I don't think they even shipped my unit.

Shipping on the days before Christmas is a nightmare. I am sure they are "trying", or have already shipped, but just not updated your shipping information yet. Don't hesitate to give them a call, and be sure to leave your order-number and a contact number. (Hit them right back in a reply from that e-mail they sent you.)

Delivery is not a flop, because of a few days... Miners have already gone out, and are arriving in peoples hands. A flop is when no-one gets a miner, and everyone waits for months later. Like you stated, with BFL. That was just a horrible disaster. Even worse was the units from BFL that got delivered, and are all failing and no-where near specs, and not getting refunds or returns. (Though, some have reported they did get replacements, a month later, after returning, at their own additional shipping costs.)

You got an e-mail, at least... those of us waiting, stuck in "processing", don't even have anything to confirm the order was "accepted". (Poor wording, as I assume they intended the word "processing" to actually be "processed". Though, it does not have the same meaning. I paid, I hope it is done processing! lol.)

[WinterParker]

Yeah i ordered a 128 GH Unit as well like 2 months ago and no word about it........That tracking number would be lovely -

[andjo327]

And VAT is handled by the SHIPPING, which is stated at the time of the purchase. Thus, invoiced. Thus, as they stated, "taken care of".

But if they are shipping from EU, where the chips are made, and possibly some of the miners... Then they DO NOT have to pay VAT, since that is EU to EU shipping. Again, "taken care of".

I have no idea about other AMT claims but why are you trying to support the claim that you don't need to pay VAT in EU? You are just spreading lies.

VAT is YOUR tax for buying something from a non-EU location

This is just not what VAT is. EU VAT is a value added tax on goods and services within the European Union (EU). Just google it.

It is an option for businesses to chose to pay it, by including it in the price, or let the customer pay it.

This is also a lie.

Why are you saying these things? I you have no clue just use google and spend 5 minutes on it instead of posting here.

[Puppet]

Why are you saying these things?

Because AMT offers a 5% discount to people lying in their favor. Im not kidding:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=304605.msg3893935#msg3893935

[RickJamesBTC]

Why are you saying these things?

Because AMT offers a 5% discount to people lying in their favor. Im not kidding:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=304605.msg3893935#msg3893935

ROFL These guys just do everything right!

[Puppet]

Well, on the 23rd, I got an email that they would try to ship my unit by the 24th and give me my tracking number.... It is the 28th now and I am still waiting for my tracking number so I don't think they even shipped my unit.

I guess you werent shilling hard enough, so you didnt qualify for their "1 TO 2 WEEKS OFF THE EXPECTED SHIPPING TIME FRAME" shill bonus.

[amer]

Well, on the 23rd, I got an email that they would try to ship my unit by the 24th and give me my tracking number.... It is the 28th now and I am still waiting for my tracking number so I don't think they even shipped my unit.

I guess you werent shilling hard enough, so you didnt qualify for their "1 TO 2 WEEKS OFF THE EXPECTED SHIPPING TIME FRAME" shill bonus.

In AMT's defense, they said 1-2 weeks off expected, not actual.

[Zaghomat]

ISAWHIM, you have no idea how VAT work so stop spreading bullshit. I'm gonna make it simple for you: you always pay VAT in EU, the only exception is a VAT registered business selling to another VAT registered business in another EU country.

[ISAWHIM]

I do know how VAT works.

Again, you morons are just morons. I pulled the links and quotes right from the EU-VAT legal pages. (Zaghomo, you just contradicted yourself, and said the exact same thing I just did.)

Obviously, you guys still have nothing else better to do, than create fictitious situations that don't exists, and pretend they do. So I will let you continue to play in your fantasy world.

Don't order. It's just that simple. The longer you wait to order something from anyone, the less you will have anyways. Your ignorance will only ensure you have nothing, or only debt, so I am glad that you don't think they are legit. Less competition for me, for mining.

AMT wins either way. I win either way. You just lose... Again...

[ISAWHIM]

This is also a lie.

Why are you saying these things? I you have no clue just use google and spend 5 minutes on it instead of posting here.

Dumb-ass, My QUOTE is right from the legal pages of the EU-VAT pages, found from google, made by the EU-GOVT. So you are calling the EU-GOVT a liar, not me.

Follow the links above the quotes. That is sort of standard quotation, to show sources. I can't help it if your own country screws you, limiting you with crappy taxes and telling you what you can spend your money on. Because my country does similar things to me.

I buy things, I sell things, I pay MY taxes, I charge you MORE when your country tells me I have to pay YOUR taxes for you. That is just how the world works. Not every place online has only ONE shipping location. Like they said, the location they are at, is just an OFFICE, not a factory. You personally have no clue where the units are coming from, what country, or who is assembling them. They do.

If you noticed, they simply stopped answering these stupid questions. They answered them once, and now it is just up to you make a decision and order something, or ignore it. If you ordered, you just have to wait the time they stated, and all will be good. If it isn't good, then you do what other normal people do, contact them. (Forums are not a business point of contact. They are a public-forum for chatting about something.)