NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[ChuckOne]

It's the sum of 1/targets.

Yes - just checked with CfB it is the sum of 1 / "block target" for all blocks (although for the modelling purposes the sum of "block target" values would be fine as the use of fractions here is presumably just to deal with numerical limits).

argmax_i sum_j 1/x_ij != argmin_i sum_j x_ij

These different sums would lead to a different result of which is the best block.

[Mario123]

When is the new nxt video ready? I would like to put it on the start page of mynxt.org

[VanBreuk]

Off the record, if anyone here got burned in VisaCoin, there's news.

[chanc3r]

In all accounts in NXTio forged. Even with 1 NXT.



 

So does that win the prize as the account forging with least NXT?

[CIYAM]

argmax_i sum_j 1/x_ij != argmin_i sum_j x_ij

These different sums would lead to a different result of which is the best block.

Oh - okay (you can see then why I want a "math" guy to help us) - so I am happy to "stand corrected" in that case.

My forte is "logic" (which is a small branch of math) but I even struggle with some "general math" little own going into "pure math" (which I tried to pick up but unfortunately didn't do very well at all at).

I did get the "gist" of the "unprovabilty theorem" of Goedel from reading "Goedel, Escher, Bach" but that was written by a *genius* who worked out how to explain the basics of math theory to a computer programmer (I would highly recommend others to *read* that book - it might just "change your life").

[chanc3r]

Imagine a guy who is juggling while on ice skates, during an earthquake. Do you really want to mess with his balance to make him change his hat?

James

Depends what building was about to fall on him and whether a better hat would help

Seriously don't just concentrate on the nodes but the network as a whole (i.e. the environment the node is within)

Building a reward coin on top of the network is interesting but does not improve the network behaviour.
The behaviour of a node is not the behaviour of the network of nodes.
Penalization is a network behaviour not part of forging, but one node assuming based on a single action another node is bad.
Just a primitive response to one node observing another.

The two topics are separate in my view;

When does a node forge and how often does it succeed and what affects this?

What actions does a node take towards another node based on its observation of that node? - to my knowledge so far all I have seen is blacklisting and the forging penalty (are these the same thing?)

I would try to solve the two problems separately - Like the stuff posted on network behaviour yesterday.

Maybe there is a penalty or blacklist for a node but IS that purely based on forging activity? and this entire piece should be checked or it could in the future be a ddos exploitation vector as it breaks the network because nodes stop listening to nodes.

[CIYAM]

Maybe there is a penalty or blacklist for a node but IS that purely based on forging activity? and this entire piece should be checked or it could in the future be a ddos exploitation vector as it breaks the network because nodes stop listening to nodes.

This is why we *need* math rather than opinion - I've seen many suggestions put forward but not one of them has any "math" to back them up (so sorry to those who have put them forward but that is why I've not replied to most of them).

[SkillRoad]

In all accounts in NXTio forged. Even with 1 NXT.



 

So does that win the prize as the account forging with least NXT?

so it seems that

[chanc3r]

Updated mynxt.org

Suggestions and more are welcome. Is something missing on the resources page?

Nice 

[l8orre]

@AE devs: I seem to be having issues with the AE: When I call 'getAssets', I get these 6 assets, created today after CfB restarted the testnet:

 

However, looking at 'getState', I see 12 trades.

There r indeed 12 trades. Check ur response parser for getTrades.

Update - Here is a good riddle: Now I do see the 13Trades in total, just as in the getState - so problem solved.

Important thing to note for DEVs:
Below is a screen from my direct api access. The way this works is that it takes the api call prototype, puts them into the lineedits, and then takes the text from the lineedits to send them to the server.

When I do NOT supply anything for firstIndex and lastIndex, i.e. https://holms.cloudapp.net:6875/nxt?firstIndex=&requestType=getTrades&asset=16739598998421896224&lastIndex=

I get the correct list of all trades for that asset:




But when I supply both zeros as first+last index, I only get one trade:

https://holms.cloudapp.net:6875/nxt?firstIndex=0&requestType=getTrades&asset=16739598998421896224&lastIndex=0







So this explains it - NRS seems to look the index up differently with '' and with '0'

[ChuckOne]

what if we were to come to the forging issue from a different angle:

The problem as defined here is HOW to keep a small NXT holder (whose motivation is financial and not ideological) interested in maintaining the network?

Another problem (for some at least) was the holding size of larger stakeholders which means that the rich will get richer and the small guy will not make enough.

How do we tackle this? we need to find a solution that will consider both issues: give a chance to the low balance guy to make enough from forging and be motivated while also allowing a chance for a higher balance holder or pool to enjoy suitable returns. we also need enough machines... hence the pool idea.

We also need to remember that high balance individuals have a vesting interest that the network will prosper which means that their equity is worth more. so the motivation there is not only forging rights.

------------------------

The conceptual solution is to create a completely random, lottery like, naturally decentralized algorithm that will assign fees randomly per transaction to any 1NXT in the system without consideration to any holder's NXT balance

Naturally- if you have more NXT you will gravitate toward having better chances to win the transaction fee

However, if you are a low balance guy you KNOW that you can win more fees than your relative holding size.

This will both provide motivation to the low balance holders that at any given moment can win a larger fee than the relative size of their account, and they will stay on and open for that extra chance---  while also take care (statistically) of the higher balance people but from a decentralized perspective- i.e. the system wouldnt care who has more NXT because it will randomly divide fees between all NXT in the system, 1 fraction at a time and not in any particular order-- which will allow for someone to win more than his "natural" share at any given time

Maybe the system can also be programmed to automatically reduce/increase fees above/below  a given number of transactions per hour or 24 hours to naturally attract more forging if number of network points decline. However, When there are enough transactions in the system and the network is both lucrative and stable everyone will be happy.

Dont know if this is at all possible and maybe this is nonsense........... but conceptually it seems to be solving issues for all stakeholders by catering to both needs  

Never forget that NXT (unlike BTC) is a ZERO SUM system.  There are no new coins every X minutes being created by mining.  This means that if you gimmick the system to put more NXT in one guy's pocket, it means there is less NXT going in somebody else's pocket.  This naturally leads to

BTCNext's First Law:  "For every increased incentive created in one part of the NXT system, there is an equal and opposite disincentive created elsewhere in the NXT system".

If you haven't identified the disincentive created by your ideas to improve somebody's lot, you haven't done your homework.  The current system assures that EVERYBODY GETS THE SAME RETURN ON THEIR INVESTMENT.  For a first cut at distributing forging rewards, this is a pretty good idea.  Every NXT holder has the opportunity, (if EVERYBODY were to forge simultaneously) to get the same ROI, the SAME interest rate on their "savings account".  Saying the "rich will get richer and the small guy will not make enough" is a TRUE STATEMENT, and also a snapshot of the Achilles heel of a Proof of Stake system (and many if not most national fiat currencies).  It is also true to say, "Both the rich guy and the small guy are getting the same savings account interest rate on their stockpiled, saved NXT".  So the current system has an element of equality in it as well as an element of perceived injustice.

NXT is an experimental attempt to create a stable economic system.  This is a completely different proposition than creating a fair social system.  Good luck trying to merge the two.

+1

NXT should be PoS.

[ChuckOne]

Maybe there is a penalty or blacklist for a node but IS that purely based on forging activity? and this entire piece should be checked or it could in the future be a ddos exploitation vector as it breaks the network because nodes stop listening to nodes.

This is why we *need* math rather than opinion - I've seen many suggestions put forward but not one of them has any "math" to back them up (so sorry to those who have put them forward but that is why I've not replied to most of them).

I'll look into it.

[Ladeco2014]

Hello!

Some testNXT for 18099455365806700711 please, thanks!

[abctc]

Some testNXT for 18099455365806700711 please, thanks!

- some testNXT sent.

[Choboy]

Am I forging right? I bought a BTC worth of NXT a few days ago, so I have around 11.5k. All I have to do is leave on my NXT client (NRS 0.7.6) and forging will happen by itself? The past few pages have been talking about how to change up forging to be more profitable... but my question is, how do I check on the progress of my forging?

Thanks! And happy NXTing!

If you leave your client on for 24 hours (1440 minutes) then you are forging.  Your client is broadcasting its availability to forge the next block, and there is a lottery system going on once a minute behind the scenes that your 11.5K NXT is participating in to win you the right to forge the next block.  Wait long enough, you will win that lottery at some particular minute, and you will forge a block.  As for monitoring your "progress" - I am not sure if you can really do that.

The two arrows represents "transactions in and out of your account".  The globe / peers is just an item of general interest - your client is not communicating with all the computers on the NXT network, only this subset.  The puzzle piece is data about the most recently forged blocks.  

Great thanks for the help! Still more questions!

1) How can I tip you through this forum?
2) Do I have to leave the wallet unlocked for a strict, straight 24 hours? I use a laptop that I bring to work, then bring to home. So I lose internet connection during transit. If I do need to leave the website on 24/7, raspberry pi is best for minimal cost/best efficiency?

[bitcoinpaul]

If I do need to leave the website on 24/7, raspberry pi is best right for minimal cost/best efficiency?

Yes.

[Damelon]

Am I forging right? I bought a BTC worth of NXT a few days ago, so I have around 11.5k. All I have to do is leave on my NXT client (NRS 0.7.6) and forging will happen by itself? The past few pages have been talking about how to change up forging to be more profitable... but my question is, how do I check on the progress of my forging?

Thanks! And happy NXTing!

If you leave your client on for 24 hours (1440 minutes) then you are forging.  Your client is broadcasting its availability to forge the next block, and there is a lottery system going on once a minute behind the scenes that your 11.5K NXT is participating in to win you the right to forge the next block.  Wait long enough, you will win that lottery at some particular minute, and you will forge a block.  As for monitoring your "progress" - I am not sure if you can really do that.

The two arrows represents "transactions in and out of your account".  The globe / peers is just an item of general interest - your client is not communicating with all the computers on the NXT network, only this subset.  The puzzle piece is data about the most recently forged blocks. 

Great thanks for the help! Still more questions!

1) How can I tip you through this forum?
2) Do I have to leave the wallet unlocked for a strict, straight 24 hours? I use a laptop that I bring to work, then bring to home. So I lose internet connection during transit. If I do need to leave the website on 24/7, raspberry pi is best right for minimal cost/best efficiency?

To be *able* to forge, the balance in your accounts needs to be confirmed 1440 times.
This equates to 24-36 hours.
After that, everytime you open your account, you will be forging with that amount that has 1440 confirmations.
No need to leave your account open to *get* it confirmed. That happens anyway.

[rriky92]

I need suggestion for iNxt (iPhone app) what di you want to see next?

[redsn0w]

Hello!

Some testNXT for 18099455365806700711 please, thanks!

Sent 5K TestNxt.

[bitcoinpaul]

I need suggestion for iNxt (iPhone app) what di you want to see next?

A good UI