NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[jl777]

It is working now, why fix it?

Is it? Just because it hasn't been attacked yet doesn't mean it "won't" or "can't".

We have had no mathematical analysis (which we are hopefully soon going to have).

I suggest the decisions are made upon "math" rather than "gut feelings" or "loyalty" to BCNext (he did say "not to trust him").

It seems a bit premature to be putting in so much effort now before we even know what the third part of the plan is. I am assuming TF will be fully revealed at that point. My loyalty to BCNext is that so far, he has done all the things he said he would and he hasn't given me any reason to doubt that he wont continue to do so.

BCNext says the final TF will be immune to 90% attacks.

Until it comes out in April, that's good enough for me. Once it comes out, then we can start to analyze it to make sure it is 90% attack proof. All of the "its not fair" stuff is a bit tiring. ANY type of reward system can be built on top of NXT to achieve whatever feedback to the overall network that we want. It wont be super precise, but if we want more nodes, we can incentivize more nodes. If we want more accounts, we can incentivize more accounts. There is no need to do this by changing the NXT core, certainly not before we get fractions, escrow and other core features.

James

[rickyjames]

what if we were to come to the forging issue from a different angle:

The problem as defined here is HOW to keep a small NXT holder (whose motivation is financial and not ideological) interested in maintaining the network?

Another problem (for some at least) was the holding size of larger stakeholders which means that the rich will get richer and the small guy will not make enough.

How do we tackle this? we need to find a solution that will consider both issues: give a chance to the low balance guy to make enough from forging and be motivated while also allowing a chance for a higher balance holder or pool to enjoy suitable returns. we also need enough machines... hence the pool idea.

We also need to remember that high balance individuals have a vesting interest that the network will prosper which means that their equity is worth more. so the motivation there is not only forging rights.

------------------------

The conceptual solution is to create a completely random, lottery like, naturally decentralized algorithm that will assign fees randomly per transaction to any 1NXT in the system without consideration to any holder's NXT balance

Naturally- if you have more NXT you will gravitate toward having better chances to win the transaction fee

However, if you are a low balance guy you KNOW that you can win more fees than your relative holding size.

This will both provide motivation to the low balance holders that at any given moment can win a larger fee than the relative size of their account, and they will stay on and open for that extra chance---  while also take care (statistically) of the higher balance people but from a decentralized perspective- i.e. the system wouldnt care who has more NXT because it will randomly divide fees between all NXT in the system, 1 fraction at a time and not in any particular order-- which will allow for someone to win more than his "natural" share at any given time

Maybe the system can also be programmed to automatically reduce/increase fees above/below  a given number of transactions per hour or 24 hours to naturally attract more forging if number of network points decline. However, When there are enough transactions in the system and the network is both lucrative and stable everyone will be happy.

Dont know if this is at all possible and maybe this is nonsense........... but conceptually it seems to be solving issues for all stakeholders by catering to both needs  

Never forget that NXT (unlike BTC) is a ZERO SUM system.  There are no new coins every X minutes being created by mining.  This means that if you gimmick the system to put more NXT in one guy's pocket, it means there is less NXT going in somebody else's pocket.  This naturally leads to

BTCNext's First Law:  "For every increased incentive created in one part of the NXT system, there is an equal and opposite disincentive created elsewhere in the NXT system".

If you haven't identified the disincentive created by your ideas to improve somebody's lot, you haven't done your homework.  The current system assures that EVERYBODY GETS THE SAME RETURN ON THEIR INVESTMENT.  For a first cut at distributing forging rewards, this is a pretty good idea.  Every NXT holder has the opportunity, (if EVERYBODY were to forge simultaneously) to get the same ROI, the SAME interest rate on their "savings account".  Saying the "rich will get richer and the small guy will not make enough" is a TRUE STATEMENT, and also a snapshot of the Achilles heel of a Proof of Stake system (and many if not most national fiat currencies).  It is also true to say, "Both the rich guy and the small guy are getting the same savings account interest rate on their stockpiled, saved NXT".  So the current system has an element of equality in it as well as an element of perceived injustice.

NXT is an experimental attempt to create a stable economic system.  This is a completely different proposition than creating a fair social system.  Good luck trying to merge the two.

[CIYAM]

BCNext says the final TF will be immune to 90% attacks.

So far he has produced no mathematical proof and I've already shown that the very idea of being able to penalise the 90% stake holder (as a whole) is *impossible* (as the stake holder just divides up his stake into multiple accounts so only 1 account would get penalised for each block).

I am not going to propose any changes until I have some "math" to back them up (so I don't want people to "believe in me" any more than BCNext) and it will ultimately be up to the community to decide what path to take.

[CIYAM]

NXT is an experimental attempt to create a stable economic system.  This is a completely different proposition than creating a fair social system.  Good luck trying to merge the two.

From my perspective the "fairness" or not is not even a consideration.

I am trying to "protect the network" and "the blockchain" only.

[freedomfighter]

what if we were to come to the forging issue from a different angle:

The problem as defined here is HOW to keep a small NXT holder (whose motivation is financial and not ideological) interested in maintaining the network?

Another problem (for some at least) was the holding size of larger stakeholders which means that the rich will get richer and the small guy will not make enough.

How do we tackle this? we need to find a solution that will consider both issues: give a chance to the low balance guy to make enough from forging and be motivated while also allowing a chance for a higher balance holder or pool to enjoy suitable returns. we also need enough machines... hence the pool idea.

We also need to remember that high balance individuals have a vesting interest that the network will prosper which means that their equity is worth more. so the motivation there is not only forging rights.

------------------------

The conceptual solution is to create a completely random, lottery like, naturally decentralized algorithm that will assign fees randomly per transaction to any 1NXT in the system without consideration to any holder's NXT balance

Naturally- if you have more NXT you will gravitate toward having better chances to win the transaction fee

However, if you are a low balance guy you KNOW that you can win more fees than your relative holding size.

This will both provide motivation to the low balance holders that at any given moment can win a larger fee than the relative size of their account, and they will stay on and open for that extra chance---  while also take care (statistically) of the higher balance people but from a decentralized perspective- i.e. the system wouldnt care who has more NXT because it will randomly divide fees between all NXT in the system, 1 fraction at a time and not in any particular order-- which will allow for someone to win more than his "natural" share at any given time

Maybe the system can also be programmed to automatically reduce/increase fees above/below  a given number of transactions per hour or 24 hours to naturally attract more forging if number of network points decline. However, When there are enough transactions in the system and the network is both lucrative and stable everyone will be happy.

Dont know if this is at all possible and maybe this is nonsense........... but conceptually it seems to be solving issues for all stakeholders by catering to both needs  

These are all very creative ideas, but there is no reason to change the NXT core for this. We can just create a rewards coin on top of NXT. Then whatever type of reward, lottery, etc. can be encapsulated in that coin. Messing with forging is VERY dangerous. Can anybody really guarantee than any change of the magnitude being discussed will actually be a stable network? It is working now, why fix it?
Add stuff on top, dont mess with fundamental forging process. I believe BCNext is the MOST capable person for making changes to forging algo. Until someone can convince me that they understand the ramifications of any changes to forging, I will not support changing forging. Especially just to make it more "fair", whatever that means.

Imagine a guy who is juggling while on ice skates, during an earthquake. Do you really want to mess with his balance to make him change his hat?

James

Dont know about the technical aspect of the core and I accept both what you say and what CIYAM said about the necessity of pooling.

the reward coin on a higher layer can also be a good solution along the same principle:

provide motivation/hope/exceitment to the low balance person to keep forging. who doesnt like the lottery and if you can win X every day, hour, minute that't unrelated to your holding level of Y it will provide the motivation to keep within the network.

this is all until such time that the network is busy, fast and large enough- which is i guess another reason to take it to the higher layer.  

and to Ricky: I dont have a problem with rich getting richer- isee it just like dividends from holding more shares. yet- this is an attempt to solve a real world motivational aspect that will likely be mute when the ecosystem grows

[rickyjames]

NXT is an experimental attempt to create a stable economic system.  This is a completely different proposition than creating a fair social system.  Good luck trying to merge the two.

From my perspective the "fairness" or not is not even a consideration.

I am trying to "protect the network" and "the blockchain" only.

I am right there with you.  That is the bedrock foundation of making NXT a stable financial system.

[jl777]

BCNext says the final TF will be immune to 90% attacks.

So far he has produced no mathematical proof and I've already shown that the very idea of being able to penalise the 90% stake holder (as a whole) is *impossible* (as the stake holder just divides up his stake into multiple accounts so only 1 account would get penalised for each block).

I am not going to propose any changes until I have some "math" to back them up (so I don't want people to "believe in me" any more than BCNext) and it will ultimately be up to the community to decide what path to take.

Too tired to debate you tonight, but I think you have shown that penalizing a 90% stakeholder is difficult. I have heard the "impossible" word too many times, when it turned out it actually wasnt impossible. Unless you have a mathematically sound proof, I would avoid impossible. Insanely difficult, OK, impossible I doubt it is impossible.

For example, we can track the path the funds have taken into the smaller accounts and combine them into a single 90% attacker. I guess the attacker would have to use NXTcash to avoid being correlated. Another way to group a cooperating group of minority accounts is to identify characteristics of the attack and penalize any node with similar enough characteristics. Not exactly a kind thing to do, but the assumption is that we are at red alert network being attacked mode, so if there are some false positives who cant forge for a bit, I think that is acceptable.

James

[bitcoinpaul]

I suggest the decisions are made upon "math" rather than "gut feelings" or "loyalty" to BCNext (he did say "not to trust him").

From my perspective the "fairness" or not is not even a consideration.

I am trying to "protect the network" and "the blockchain" only.

+1

[igmaca]

NXT is an experimental attempt to create a stable economic system.  This is a completely different proposition than creating a fair social system.  Good luck trying to merge the two.

From my perspective the "fairness" or not is not even a consideration.

I am trying to "protect the network" and "the blockchain" only.

It is undisputed that altruistic award is a universal principle of nature

All the systems that follow this principle persist over time

[marcus03]

could it be that new nxt 0.8.1e dont work with NXTsolaris client ?

Yes , you have to wait for an update.

And I have to wait for 0.8.2.e to be able to release an update. :-)

[pinarello]

could it be that new nxt 0.8.1e dont work with NXTsolaris client ?

Yes , you have to wait for an update.

And I have to wait for 0.8.2.e to be able to release an update. :-)

thank you for sharing.

[DrearyUrbanite]

NXT is an experimental attempt to create a stable economic system.  This is a completely different proposition than creating a fair social system.  Good luck trying to merge the two.

From my perspective the "fairness" or not is not even a consideration.

I am trying to "protect the network" and "the blockchain" only.

I am right there with you.  That is the bedrock foundation of making NXT a stable financial system.

Agreed, I bought some NXT. I run a node to protect it, period.

[landomata]

ANNOUNCEMENT

Link to the full Prospectus/Business Plan (25 pages)
https://mega.co.nz/#!KdITnBIB!PW_sWdyNi7IGWC_VYSSO9Ki8ja6RC2YTpW20VrEshh4


Early Nxtty Messenger Demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj0CRqoNsYc


Also pls feel free to comment on the plan on both Nextcoin & nxtcrypto forums:
https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,3313.msg31709.html#msg31709  &
https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=635&p=2968#p2968


We will be communicating more details to the community regarding the exact IPO date.  If anyone wishes to take part in private placement please do send me a pm.



Best regards,
Landomata
Secretary
Nxt Mobile Applications Company

[pinarello]

With some buying power we could easily be third place on coinmarket, that would ring some bells.

[Mario123]

Updated mynxt.org

Suggestions and more are welcome. Is something missing on the resources page?

[wesleyh]

Updated mynxt.org

Suggestions and more are welcome. Is something missing on the resources page?

Really nice site, perhaps my faucet at http://nxtra.org - but not necessarily.

[Mario123]

Updated mynxt.org

Suggestions and more are welcome. Is something missing on the resources page?

Really nice site, perhaps my faucet at http://nxtra.org - but not necessarily.

It is on the front page. But maybe I should list all links in resources.

[redsn0w]

Updated mynxt.org

Suggestions and more are welcome. Is something missing on the resources page?

 Can you add the italian forum ?  http://nextcoin.it

Thanks .

[wesleyh]

Updated mynxt.org

Suggestions and more are welcome. Is something missing on the resources page?

Really nice site, perhaps my faucet at http://nxtra.org - but not necessarily.

It is on the front page. But maybe I should list all links in resources.

Oops, yeah i missed that :-) thx

[utopianfuture]

ANNOUNCEMENT

Link to the full Prospectus/Business Plan (25 pages)
https://mega.co.nz/#!KdITnBIB!PW_sWdyNi7IGWC_VYSSO9Ki8ja6RC2YTpW20VrEshh4


Early Nxtty Messenger Demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj0CRqoNsYc


Also pls feel free to comment on the plan on both Nextcoin & nxtcrypto forums:
https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,3313.msg31709.html#msg31709  &
https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=635&p=2968#p2968


We will be communicating more details to the community regarding the exact IPO date.  If anyone wishes to take part in private placement please do send me a pm.



Best regards,
Landomata
Secretary
Nxt Mobile Applications Company

A lot of good works have been put in this. I am not sure how the company will compete in this incredibly competitive market segment but I will wholeheartedly support you and the effort. To me the process is not just about profit making efficiency but it is also a completely new way of stat-up governance. It could be a harbinger of a new society in the future which I would deem more desirable than the current system.