NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[utopianfuture]

Working on the math behind the voting system.

What variables do you think should be included to determine voting power?

So far I have

(This isn't in any known language, just organized in a way that people should be able to understand)

Code:

variables that are added to vote weight

account size 
account age

Hypothetically let
lastblock ==1400 
account creation[0]== 1400
account creation[1]== 700
account creation[2]== 100 

accountSize[0]== 1,00,000
accountSize[1]== 500,000
accountSize[2]== 250,000

Let relativeAge = (lastBlock) / (accountCreation) '

therefore :	relativeAge[0]= 1
		relativeAge[1]= 2
		relativeAge[2]=14

Let fairWeight = (accountSize)^(1/3) 

therefore :	fairWeight[0]= 63
		fairWeight[1]= 51
		fairWeight[2]=41

votingPower = (relativeAge)*(fairWeight)

votingPower[0] = 63
votingPower[1] =  102
votingPower[2] = 574

I know you guys just want to make Voting not so "top-heavy". But that is no solution.

Let's look at this szenario:

This voting math is implemented and 2 people just bought 10.000.000 NXT each.
One of them is keeping all NXT in his one account.  Voting power:  100
The other on makes 100 accounts with 100.000 NXT each.  Voting Power: 4641

Basically he payed 100 NXT fees, to increase his voting power by 4741%
Does that really sound fair? I think not.

The other 10.000.000 could do the same so both has a fair chance. In game theory framework you arrive at a type of Prisoner's Dilemma game. The equilibrium is that both will try to divide the number of acct to the maximum and get an equal vote. If you add time and labor expense to the activity of acct division, then the equllibrium is that they both try to divide the number of acct to the maximum where the benefit of winning the vote = the time and labor expense.

Now since here we are talking about a community of >15000 accts instead of two person game. Let's see what happen when a big acc holder try to game the system and win the vote under acct based voting system. So the idea is that the big acct holder will try to make as many small accts as possible to have more votes. The more NXT the acc have, the more accs that the big stake holder can make. So in that situation we approach the system of the votes based on the number of NXT, or in other work we approach the system of voting based on stake.

It does not seem so bad for proponents of stake-based voting to me. And for acc- based voting proponents I can say the worst we could have is for the big stake holders to turn the voting into a stake-based one. But it would be costly for big stake holders to do that. Sound good to me.

Any flaws in this reasoning ? or should we focus on building the criterion of account eligibility instead ?

Please review my reasoning above. I am for account based voting, but we have to build account eligibility criterion. If we follow stake-based voting, we are not going to
survive the open source community. Rich-based voting is a dead sentence for community building and without community building you are not going to survive the open source community.

There are already NXT forks out there welcoming disfranchised NXT small acc owners. You can't prevent others copying NXT codes and make forks.

  

[jl777]

i strongly support this. best idea yet.

I support it also although I actually would like to see people have to *pay* to vote (as I don't this has really been tried before and could be an interesting experiment).

Think about it - you can "rig" an outcome by burning up your NXT but how many times can you afford to do that?

Perhaps also rather than just having the NXT being used for such a poll being fed back as fees (which an AM approach would do) why not have the accounts be used for something (but not for what they represent so they can't send themselves money to use).

America has perfected the pay per vote system

[newsilike]

https://www.facebook.com/Bitcoinsnews 30k likes
Just posted an article regarding Nxt.
The post is titled

Next Coin is the coin of the future

http://imgur.com/WrJ0cce
I asked "BitcoinChannel" about Nxt.
He'll be covering it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpMZ60t0PTI

The buzz is gonna be big.

[BitcoinForumator]

https://www.facebook.com/Bitcoinsnews 30k likes
Just posted an article regarding Nxt.
The post is titled

Next Coin is the coin of the future

http://imgur.com/WrJ0cce
I asked "BitcoinChannel" about Nxt.
He'll be covering it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpMZ60t0PTI

The buzz is gonna be big.

Awesome. I just hope he doesn't water it down, the way he did few other coins.

Meanwhile, the price keeps rising and rising on Bter.

[Come-from-Beyond]

nxt is using the innovative code (Pos)

This won't last long.

[brooklynbtc]

I think this  a perfect time to use weak artificial intelligence algorithms.

So long as the voting system won't ask one day for my clothes and motorcycle.

+tT2000

[Damelon]

+1 we just have to accept that wealthier individuals are going to have more voting power. dont try to fight it.

No we don't. Why do we have to accept it??  It can just as easily be implemented without costs, please explain why does a vote has to be paid by the voters. (honest question, not trolling)

The only reason that makes sense to me is that we are actively trying to make people NOT vote

Yes thats exactly right. Not everyone should vote about everything. Someone who doesnt understand anything about the protocol should not be voting on issues relating to changes to the protocol. By making voting free people vote because they have no reason not to and you get ignorant voters voting on issues they know nothing about. by adding a cost people will only vote on something they actually care about which will tend to be things that they actually KNOW something about.

But then, if not everyone is supposed to vote, why have the vote, and the poll, and the community outreach in the first place?
If not everyone should vote, we don't need a voting mechanism at all.

You say:
By making voting free people vote because they have no reason not to.

But voting is about engaging in a community[/b, taking part in the process. What you say is completely opposite by the idea of voting.

Voting on issues that you basically don't care about, just for shits and giggles is extremely destructive though.
All voting systems have certain thresholds built in to keep them manageable.

If I make a vote about say, marketing (this is one of the things I know about) and 200 uninformed people vote based on knowledge that is incorrect or incomplete (and who also have no intention to inform themselves), then voting will die.

Putting up a moderate threshold, which will make people think before voting, will actually make the voting system work.

It should not be so restrictive that you can't vote, but it should be restrictive enough to discourage useless voting.

[gs02xzz]

Besides, from a logical point of view a person who owns a lot of NXT deserves to have "more of a say" in any voting mechanism.

Can you logically elaborate on that ?? It sounds completely irrational and feudal to me. so 10th Century..

Why does a whale have more saying than a tuna? Are they not swimming in the same waters?

An old saying says that your heart goes where your treasure goes. The more stake you have the more you care.

We can set two voting schemes for each vote and each motion has to pass both to get validated:
1) 50%+ of stake majority for approval
2) 60%+ of account majority for veto    

[okaynow]

but the fact that i have a big wallet does not guarrantee that i have an understanding of the subject we are voting on.

[Come-from-Beyond]

I think this  a perfect time to use weak artificial intelligence algorithms.

So long as the voting system won't ask one day for my clothes and motorcycle.

...not sure about nexern's distributed nxt agents

[jl777]

Well, if it's only going to take that long then I probably shouldn't bother; http://nxtra.org/voting/add.php (unfinished...)

Hey, that's looking good!

--

Can we read somewhere about this built-in voting system? If it's good then there is indeed no point in building a site.

My guess is that we could combine a site like wesleyh's on top of the built in API for voting. doesn't that make the most sense? I don't want to slow down client development with adding VS until after initial release. No sense in reinventing the wheel, so a website front end to VS API is what I recommend

James

[mr_random]

Besides, from a logical point of view a person who owns a lot of NXT deserves to have "more of a say" in any voting mechanism.

Can you logically elaborate on that ?? It sounds completely irrational and feudal to me. so 10th Century..

Why does a whale have more saying than a tuna? Are they not swimming in the same waters?

Yes my explanation is in the part of my sentence you cut off:

Besides, from a logical point of view a person who owns a lot of NXT deserves to have "more of a say" in any voting mechanism since the outcome will affect his holding more than someone who owns 100NXT.

[TwinWinNerD]

Do you guys also think that a company that has 100.000 Stakeholders, but 50 of them make up 51%, has no good decision finding system?
The big stakeholders WILL care IF they vote. They have the most to lose.

[okaynow]

Besides, from a logical point of view a person who owns a lot of NXT deserves to have "more of a say" in any voting mechanism.

Can you logically elaborate on that ?? It sounds completely irrational and feudal to me. so 10th Century..

Why does a whale have more saying than a tuna? Are they not swimming in the same waters?

Yes my explanation is in the part of my sentence you cut off:

Besides, from a logical point of view a person who owns a lot of NXT deserves to have "more of a say" in any voting mechanism since the outcome will affect his holding more than someone who owns 100NXT.

That is not an explanation, that is your point of view.

please explain why does a bigger wallet has to have more saying than  a small wallet.

[TwinWinNerD]

Besides, from a logical point of view a person who owns a lot of NXT deserves to have "more of a say" in any voting mechanism.

Can you logically elaborate on that ?? It sounds completely irrational and feudal to me. so 10th Century..

Why does a whale have more saying than a tuna? Are they not swimming in the same waters?

Yes my explanation is in the part of my sentence you cut off:

Besides, from a logical point of view a person who owns a lot of NXT deserves to have "more of a say" in any voting mechanism since the outcome will affect his holding more than someone who owns 100NXT.

That is not an explanation, that is your point of view.

please explain why does a bigger wallet has to have more saying than  a small wallet.

because it does NOT make sence to make it otherwise. There will always be an incentive to just split your holdings to the optimal size to increase your voting power then....

[utopianfuture]

+1 we just have to accept that wealthier individuals are going to have more voting power. dont try to fight it.

No we don't. Why do we have to accept it??  It can just as easily be implemented without costs, please explain why does a vote has to be paid by the voters. (honest question, not trolling)

The only reason that makes sense to me is that we are actively trying to make people NOT vote

Yes thats exactly right. Not everyone should vote about everything. Someone who doesnt understand anything about the protocol should not be voting on issues relating to changes to the protocol. By making voting free people vote because they have no reason not to and you get ignorant voters voting on issues they know nothing about. by adding a cost people will only vote on something they actually care about which will tend to be things that they actually KNOW something about.

But then, if not everyone is supposed to vote, why have the vote, and the poll, and the community outreach in the first place?
If not everyone should vote, we don't need a voting mechanism at all.

If you're going to cherry pick who should and should not vote then its not decentralized or democratic or even useful to have the mechanism. You may as well do personal interviews on a case by case basis, lol. Those with the most stake should have the most weight in there votes as they have the most to lose. Plain and simple. Any attempts to craft a system where the stake is not the basis for voting weight will just be "abused" and have the same outcome and in fact I view this as less fair anyways. If you want to make technical changes to the network that a large holder may not understand then it is your job to educate them along with stakeholders of any size so they can make an informed decision.

Well just let me be direct here. If you guys want to keep the rich-based voting and makes NXT rich guys club. I am going to make a fork as soon as I can.  It is open source

community after all. I already have a thread  going here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=422129.0 and I have several million NXT in funding. Someone is going to do it

anyway so I will do it first when my millions of  NXT still have  some values.  

[utopianfuture]

Besides, from a logical point of view a person who owns a lot of NXT deserves to have "more of a say" in any voting mechanism.

Can you logically elaborate on that ?? It sounds completely irrational and feudal to me. so 10th Century..

Why does a whale have more saying than a tuna? Are they not swimming in the same waters?

Yes my explanation is in the part of my sentence you cut off:

Besides, from a logical point of view a person who owns a lot of NXT deserves to have "more of a say" in any voting mechanism since the outcome will affect his holding more than someone who owns 100NXT.

That is not an explanation, that is your point of view.

please explain why does a bigger wallet has to have more saying than  a small wallet.

because it does NOT make sence to make it otherwise. There will always be an incentive to just split your holdings to the optimal size to increase your voting power then....

I already explained here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg4627039#msg4627039

[mr_random]

Besides, from a logical point of view a person who owns a lot of NXT deserves to have "more of a say" in any voting mechanism.

Can you logically elaborate on that ?? It sounds completely irrational and feudal to me. so 10th Century..

Why does a whale have more saying than a tuna? Are they not swimming in the same waters?

Yes my explanation is in the part of my sentence you cut off:

Besides, from a logical point of view a person who owns a lot of NXT deserves to have "more of a say" in any voting mechanism since the outcome will affect his holding more than someone who owns 100NXT.

That is not an explanation, that is your point of view.

please explain why does a bigger wallet has to have more saying than  a small wallet.

No it's your point of view that it's not explanation. It's a fact that a person who owns more NXT gets affected more by any decision regarding NXT. If the decision has a positive outcome the person with more NXT will gain more from the decision. If the decision has a negative outcome on NXT value, the person with more NXT loses more. I suggest debating with actual logic to make your argument rather than dismissing things without discussion.

[okaynow]

So there should be votes, but not all are meant to vote.
The ones that are meant to vote, are not the ones with the knowledge on the subject being voted, but the ones with the big wallet.
That is a sound plan to some..

i am coming to the conclusion that a lot of people are reading "stakeholder" and think of "shareholder"...

This is not a corporation.
Why don't we try to find solutions as a community and not as a Board of Trustees?

[utopianfuture]

So there should be votes, but not all are meant to vote.
The ones that are meant to vote, are not the ones with the knowledge on the subject being voted, but the ones with the big wallet.
That is a sound plan to some..

i am coming to the conclusion that a lot of people are reading "stakeholder" and think of "shareholder"...

This is not a corporation.
Why don't we try to find solutions as a community and not as a Board of Trustees?

These people are so short-sighted. It is open source software for GOD's sake. You are not holding APPLE stocks. If you guys make NXT a rich guy club, then you are killing NXT

the chance to be a real social movement.

Unless you can protect the software indefinitely. Think about it.