mtgox.com has blocked my account with 45 000 USD in it!

[kiba]

To summarize the evidence thus far:

1. 9000 BTC was somehow transferred to Baron. I believe that Baron said it was proof.

2. Baron entered and I verified a transaction on 01/07/11. All that proves is that Baron knows that particular transaction.

[1713579534]

1713579534

[1713579534]

1713579534

[1713579534]

1713579534

[kiba]

Can mtgox confirm that a LR transfer that took place on 01/07/11? If possible, can you tell us if it is deposited in Baron's account?

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Also, i don't like the "judge, jury and executioner" approach shown by mtgox.

In what way has mtgox acted as judge, jury or executioner?  He came over a heap of stolen money, and blocked the account while the investigation goes on.  Would there be any other sensible thing to do?  Any other legal options?  If mtgox do something illegal here, like releasing the account with stolen funds before the matter is completely resolved, we are all at risk of loosing everything we have on mtgox.

If he has strong , I repeat very strong proof that I am that "thief", so he must go to police and provide that proof to them, and only with police permission he can block money

You can read the proof in this thread.  It is damning evidence, and mtgox doesn't need more than that to block your account.  In most jurisdictions a bank or exchange has to block the account when stolen money get transferred to it.  VISA, MasterCard, PayPal and your bank would do the exact same thing without waiting for the police.  They are not allowed to let the thief run away with the stolen money.  You claim to have lawyers, but I doubt it.

Still, what MTGOX did is far from lawful/good/just. You see, on mtgox.com page, there are no terms of service, no anti-scam policy, nothing. When users register, they do not agree to anything ! So mtgox had no damn right to do anythyng, *INCLUDING* any freezing funds !
And not only that, mtgox is not even a fucking bank. So if Baron is really innocent, and sues mtgox, this will end very badly for mtgox (and possibly Bitcoin's reputation may suffer because of that a little).

Time to look for another exchange i guess ?

[FreeMoney]

Also, i don't like the "judge, jury and executioner" approach shown by mtgox.

In what way has mtgox acted as judge, jury or executioner?  He came over a heap of stolen money, and blocked the account while the investigation goes on.  Would there be any other sensible thing to do?  Any other legal options?  If mtgox do something illegal here, like releasing the account with stolen funds before the matter is completely resolved, we are all at risk of loosing everything we have on mtgox.

If he has strong , I repeat very strong proof that I am that "thief", so he must go to police and provide that proof to them, and only with police permission he can block money

You can read the proof in this thread.  It is damning evidence, and mtgox doesn't need more than that to block your account.  In most jurisdictions a bank or exchange has to block the account when stolen money get transferred to it.  VISA, MasterCard, PayPal and your bank would do the exact same thing without waiting for the police.  They are not allowed to let the thief run away with the stolen money.  You claim to have lawyers, but I doubt it.

Still, what MTGOX did is far from lawful/good/just. You see, on mtgox.com page, there are no terms of service, no anti-scam policy, nothing. When users register, they do not agree to anything ! So mtgox had no damn right to do anythyng, *INCLUDING* any freezing funds !
And not only that, mtgox is not even a fucking bank. So if Baron is really innocent, and sues mtgox, this will end very badly for mtgox (and possibly Bitcoin's reputation may suffer because of that a little).

Time to look for another exchange i guess ?

Are you telling me you wouldn't take back your own money if you hadn't previously stated that it was your policy to take back your own money?

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Also, this thread is really getting annoying.

mtgox & baron: Why don't you guys just discuss in the open so everybody can see it ?
Perhaps make new topic for it or something.

Also, i really don't like the fact that mtgox is not responding in this thread at all - it's getting more and more suspicious. First he didn't take seriously when people told him about the rounding bugs, now this. Not good, not good at all...

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Are you telling me you wouldn't take back your own money if you hadn't previously stated that it was your policy to take back your own money?

Funny thing is, that MTGOX didn't clearly state if that were his money or not.
He is keeping us in the dark, and i don't like that. I'm getting pissed off.

EDIT:
Mtgox really has the nasty habit of not caring/not responding to what people say on the forum, he seriously needs to change that.
He also doesn't care about some important details (rounding bugs, lack of terms of service and now this), which is making me nervous.

I'm starting to think that mtgox's site might be a long-term scam strategy or something. And unless he fucking shows up in this thread and starts talking just *ANYTHING*, i will become more and more suspicious.

[FreeMoney]

We are left having to assume that baron is in fact person B. baron’s account on mtgox holds less than the sum of theft by person B.

I'm pretty sure he means that he is retaking funds stolen from himself and from people who's funds he was holding. I guess it could be a tad more clear.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

We are left having to assume that baron is in fact person B. baron’s account on mtgox holds less than the sum of theft by person B.

I'm pretty sure he means that he is retaking funds stolen from himself and from people who's funds he was holding. I guess it could be a tad more clear.

Exactly what i mean, it could be much less shady.

[kiba]

mtgox & baron: Why don't you guys just discuss in the open so everybody can see it ?
Perhaps make new topic for it or something.

With the scant evidence we have, we have very little that is proven.

Baron claimed to have deposited LRUSD on 01/07/11. So far he provide some evidence by knowing a transaction. But I have no idea if it shown up on mtgox's account database.

We also know that 9000 bitcoin were transfered to Baron. Baron admitted that.

However, we lack knowledge of who his accuser is, what evidence that mtgox have, and so on.

Also remember that the theft took place on mtgox's site. So we only have the exchanger's words for the most part. Anything he post will need to be taken with a grain of salt. Based on past history though, mtgox is not a liar.

Baron's words are mostly just that, words. We are able to know a few things, but not prove much of anything. It doesn't help that he forget important key details. It doesn't help that he's supposedly a mute, which is not proven.

[kiba]

Here is my impression of the accusation by the two parties:

MtGox: Baron stolen 9000 BTC plus some [unspecified] LRUSD.

Baron: MtGox frozen 45000 LRUSD in Baron's account.

Will the two parties confirm if the accusation is accurate? Can MtGox clarify how many LRUSD is stolen?

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Baron's words are mostly just that, words. We are able to know a few things, but not prove much of anything. It doesn't help that he forget important key details. It doesn't help that he's supposedly a mute, which is not proven.

Oh don't worry about that, i don't trust Baron at all.
I just don't like mtgox's attitude. He could be much more helpful on the forums and he could give a duck about what people say here, but he is not / does not.

BTW, Baron's writing style is very similiar to a typical nigerian scammer, but of course that can come from insufficient english skill. Still, very suspicious.

[dmiceman]

Don't know if this related or not, but there is no any movement in USD/BTC rate on mtgox for last several hours and a volume is extremely low.

[sanjay]

I believe Baron because he used a red font and I really like red.

[wb3]

Let me dust off the law books.

First off in order for there to be any transaction there must be consideration (work, money, service, etc...) between both parties.

Looking at https://mtgox.com/merch/about there does seem to be consideration.

Now, the transaction must be of a legal nature.

It appears to be the case.

Lets look at evidence of the transaction:

Receipt, proof of deposit, etc....  From either party.  Hmm... No proof can be supplied as to aver the transaction took place for this International Court of Arbitration.

Considering the Amounts involved here: Hearsay would not be admissible. But if it was I would have to look at the credibility of both parties. Since that can not yet be achieved, Hearsay would not be allow even in the Small Claims division.


I must dismiss this case "without" prejudice. It can be brought again at a later time with more evidence.

Some advice to both parties.

First. Who in there right mind keeps $45,000 dollars in this type of account. Keep it in your ewallet and take it out a piece at a time to avoid this type of thing.

Second. It is believed that a business or entity that holds a CASH value especially in USD for unknown people, said business could be liable under several different statues. Do Not Hold the money, conduct the transaction and take a fee and keep records (what ever records that can actually be kept), otherwise the FISA Secret Police will show up.

Third. This would be a business, the IRS or whatever authority will want its share. People will expect you to conduct it honestly or there will be consequences. What is worse is that if these transactions are actually of an illegal nature (money laundering) and you stole the money. You lost your anonymity when you conducted the transaction to USD. They will find you. I think 45,000 USD would warrant a broken leg.

Fourth. If the grieving party is scamming the business, there is no way a business is going to hand over 45,000 USD without proof. You might get a free cheeseburger, if you ask nicely.

BTW: Please pay all court costs and filing fees to: 1BRsTuYvGB5ALSTuk7GXb8R5kkW5j9ic3C

[sturle]

VISA, mastercard is bank institution, paypal also acts like bank( I don't use paypal, so I can't say about that strong), so there are two different things. They have special law power issued by government,

I do not believe you have even spoken to a lawyer about this.  Their "special power" is called "law", and it applies to everyone.  No special powers involved.

when you agree to use their services, you sign on agreement (that they can block you money, if they see any problems and etc.),

It doesn't need to be in an agreement when it is regulated by law.  Aiding in the trade of stolen money or other goods in my country will get you three years in prison.  The bank mangers don't want to spend their life in prison, so any stolen money are immediately locked.

To sturle : it's strange for me your strong opinion about all this, without knowing everything.

I obviously know more than you pretend to remember.

[sturle]

My liberty reserve history:
01/07/2011 02:12    52722343       U8227430 (xMtGox)    - $28,616.00    $0.00    $0.61    Hide Merchant Reference: 1336    Memo: MtGox.com Funding
01/07/2011 02:12    52722317       U8227430 (xMtGox)    - $30,000.00    $0.00    $28,616.61    Hide Merchant Reference: 1336    Memo: MtGox.com Funding
01/07/2011 01:51    52721818       U8227430 (xMtGox)    - $16,000.00    $0.00    $58,616.61    Hide Merchant Reference: 1336    Memo: MtGox.com Funding

P R O O F
There is not trace of you buying ~3000 BTC x 3 from some random guy.
You are lying to us!

[sturle]

Still, what MTGOX did is far from lawful/good/just. You see, on mtgox.com page, there are no terms of service, no anti-scam policy, nothing. When users register, they do not agree to anything ! So mtgox had no damn right to do anythyng, *INCLUDING* any freezing funds !

Too bad, because in my country mtgox would have to go to prison for up to three years if he didn't lock the funds.  Aiding trade of stolen goods is illegal in most places.  In my country the law will not normally be included in the terms of service either.  It is obvious.

Time to look for another exchange i guess ?

Good luck with that.  If the exchange declines to follow the law in the country where it is located, your money and coins may disappear very quickly when the owner goes to jail.

[MoonShadow]

Still, what MTGOX did is far from lawful/good/just. You see, on mtgox.com page, there are no terms of service, no anti-scam policy, nothing. When users register, they do not agree to anything ! So mtgox had no damn right to do anythyng, *INCLUDING* any freezing funds !

Too bad, because in my country mtgox would have to go to prison for up to three years if he didn't lock the funds.  Aiding trade of stolen goods is illegal in most places.  In my country the law will not normally be included in the terms of service either.  It is obvious.

Time to look for another exchange i guess ?

Good luck with that.  If the exchange declines to follow the law in the country where it is located, your money and coins may disappear very quickly when the owner goes to jail.

Honestly, MtGox isn't in your country, and must abide by the laws within the country that it's owner resides; which I believe is the US.  Regardless, he would still be liable in the US for civil actions if he was aware of theft or fraud and did nothing.

[sturle]

We are left having to assume that baron is in fact person B. baron’s account on mtgox holds less than the sum of theft by person B.

I'm pretty sure he means that he is retaking funds stolen from himself and from people who's funds he was holding. I guess it could be a tad more clear.

AFAIK mtgox hasn't taken anything.  He has locked an account and is waiting for the owner to identify himself.

[wb3]

Caveat emptor


This system is so anti-scammer. It is an Untrusted Trust network. The only way to use a Outproxy service or vendor would mean to give up anonymity. All real and honest businesses would require some form of ID, at least a real email address to send receipts. If you use a throw away account then you throw away your receipts.

I just can't believe the amounts being used in USD at this point. I expected $10 or maybe a $100 for the real brave, but if the quote is correct, transaction in the amount over $10,000 USD.

The only way that is occurring at this point is it is being used as a point to point wire transfer but why ever put the real figure into a weird account in real money.

 (A) pays (B); (B) sends a ratio amount to (C) ; (C) pays (D).  

Which I guess is cool but there will the "Big Boys" out there will be trying to stop it. Like Western Union and their Pinkerton crowd.

I'm not that concern about "terrorist's" using it. They would have figured out a much less suspicious system than sending encrypted fake money. Like posting to a comment, saying something like : yea, I got that one.  then (C) sees the comment from (B) and pays (D).  Plenty of "plausible deniability" and much hard to track over encrypted packets. All the "experts" would know the best encryption is no identifiable encryption. Catcher and the Rye stuff.