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[cjmoles]

Other than the table starter promotion which affects at most two players per table at Betcoin Cash games, they offer the same rake back at all games.  There are no "different rake back programs".  (unless they introduced something very recently)

When you register for a WPN tournament (which are in USD), you get a pop up letting you know how many chips (mbtcs) you will be charged before confirming.

Most of the confusion would not exist if Betcoin were to keep a financial history for tournaments played and make it available to both players and support.  I suspect that even support doesn't have access to the WPN tournament history of any individual player.  This is why it's so difficult to prove they are under paying their rakeback, especially for players who have comp points coming to them for other reasons (non WPN mtts) - it took me months before I was 100% sure I was being underpaid. 

This is also why its so wrong of them to use this kind of logic on a player who believes they have been underpaid:

We have many players that play regularly now and if it wasn't accurate, you would hear from them all.
I AGREE...THIS IS BAD LOGIC.

I also agree that we should be provided a history of our game play, so that we can keep accurate records within the platform.

Well, my rake back at ACR and BCP is 17% and that's USD, but my rake back at Betcoin is still only 10% (it changes according to VIP level but it doesn't at ACR or BCP) and that's bitcoin.  

But, say for example, I played the $500 + $40 tourney at Betcoin, but when I bought in, bitcoin was worth $400.  Then, when the tournament ended 12 hours later, bitcoins value had dropped back down to $250.  Where would the value of my rake back be pegged?  While at the same time, if I bought in at ACR (not really possible) for the same amount, my rake back would still be pegged at the original buy-in value.  See where the confusion lies?  It really is more complicated....I was just trying come up with an example to illustrate some of the dynamics that have to be dealt with between the two markets.

Your rake back would be based on the price when you bought into the tournament.

I agree it's not a simple situation and mistakes are to be expected.  I understand and expect the mistakes.  Every site I've ever played at has had issues which I had to contact support and ask them to fix.

The problem is not the honest mistakes Betcoin makes, it's that they consistently handle them dishonestly.

Based on the price when you bought in of Bitcoin to USD or of USD to Bitcoin?  See that's where the problem lies....somebody is going to be losing something somewhere because of Bitcoin's volatility.

Hyperbole:  If the price of bitcoin dropped from $400 to $0.25 would you expect the WPN to pay you (17% rake back on a $40 fee) 27.2 BTC = $6.80 in rake back or would you expect to be paid back (17% rake back on a 0.10BTC fee) 0.017 BTC = $0.00425 in rake back?....See it goes both ways so somebody will lose somewhere with that reasoning....see the complications?

Sometimes there's not an answer that's both satisfying and simple to relay, especially when dealing with somebody who feels wronged.

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[Junko]

But it seems that you are implying that I am preventing this from happening.

Not sure how you inferred that, but I can assure you that I was not at all implying that you are preventing anything from happening. And for that matter, nor was I implying that Betcoin or anyone else was preventing anything from happening neither. The only thing I meant or implied by what you quoted me on was only exactly what I wrote. I can bullshit a lot here and in other parts of the forum as well as outside it. But when it comes to serious topics I try to choose my words carefully.

By making posts endorsing them or thanking them for their services tells Betcoin that you think what they're doing is OK.  It also tells other similar businesses (which you may use already or in the future) that behaving like they have is OK.

That's your viewpoint and opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. Who am I or anyone else  to tell you what you are supposed to think. I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you though. And I can only speak for myself, but when I make posts endorsing the merits and services Betcoin offers, I am literally doing just and only that - endorsing the merits and services of Betcoin and nothing more. And I stand by all the posts I've made doing so. Other people may have had different experiences with Betcoin then me obviously, but I can only go with my own personal ones.

How Betcoin takes that or how you or anyone else takes it including other businesses, I have no control over. I'm not going to include a disclaimer with every endorsement I make itemizing the things I am not endorsing. Yes, I get what you are saying, but I just don't see it that way from my standpoint. If hypothetically, I wanted to convey that I endorsed any kind of mishandling of issues that you've brought up, then I would just do so in plain terms.  Like I said, I can only speak for myself.

And no need to try to infer or figure out any mysterious meanings in any of my posts. Just take them literally as is. Trust me. 

[TwitchySeal]

Other than the table starter promotion which affects at most two players per table at Betcoin Cash games, they offer the same rake back at all games.  There are no "different rake back programs".  (unless they introduced something very recently)

When you register for a WPN tournament (which are in USD), you get a pop up letting you know how many chips (mbtcs) you will be charged before confirming.

Most of the confusion would not exist if Betcoin were to keep a financial history for tournaments played and make it available to both players and support.  I suspect that even support doesn't have access to the WPN tournament history of any individual player.  This is why it's so difficult to prove they are under paying their rakeback, especially for players who have comp points coming to them for other reasons (non WPN mtts) - it took me months before I was 100% sure I was being underpaid. 

This is also why its so wrong of them to use this kind of logic on a player who believes they have been underpaid:

We have many players that play regularly now and if it wasn't accurate, you would hear from them all.
I AGREE...THIS IS BAD LOGIC.

I also agree that we should be provided a history of our game play, so that we can keep accurate records within the platform.

Well, my rake back at ACR and BCP is 17% and that's USD, but my rake back at Betcoin is still only 10% (it changes according to VIP level but it doesn't at ACR or BCP) and that's bitcoin.  

But, say for example, I played the $500 + $40 tourney at Betcoin, but when I bought in, bitcoin was worth $400.  Then, when the tournament ended 12 hours later, bitcoins value had dropped back down to $250.  Where would the value of my rake back be pegged?  While at the same time, if I bought in at ACR (not really possible) for the same amount, my rake back would still be pegged at the original buy-in value.  See where the confusion lies?  It really is more complicated....I was just trying come up with an example to illustrate some of the dynamics that have to be dealt with between the two markets.

Your rake back would be based on the price when you bought into the tournament.

I agree it's not a simple situation and mistakes are to be expected.  I understand and expect the mistakes.  Every site I've ever played at has had issues which I had to contact support and ask them to fix.

The problem is not the honest mistakes Betcoin makes, it's that they consistently handle them dishonestly.

Based on the price when you bought in of Bitcoin to USD or of USD to Bitcoin?  See that's where the problem lies....somebody is going to be losing something somewhere because of Bitcoin's volatility.

Hyperbole:  If the price of bitcoin dropped from $400 to $0.25 would you expect the WPN to pay you (17% rake back on a $40 fee) 27.2 BTC = $6.80 in rake back or would you expect to be paid back (17% rake back on a 0.10BTC fee) 0.017 BTC = $0.00425 in rake back?....See it goes both ways so somebody will lose somewhere with that reasoning....see the complications?

Sometimes there's not an answer that's both satisfying and simple to relay, especially when dealing with somebody who feels wronged.

If I play a $100+9 mtt, and it charges me 285mbtc+25mbtc , then I should be paid 17% of 25mbtc


Betcoin only uses 1 or 2 average prices per day, probably to keep things simple for themselvesf. 

The methods you're explaining are unnecessarily complicated imo, but if they wanted use up to the minute prices I'd be fine with that too.

Whatever method or system they choose to use, I'm cool with.  Just explain how it works and honor it.


I believe Betcoins system is a good one in theory, they just fail to execute it perfectly (it would be ridiculous to expect them to) There will always be bugs to deal with, there's simply no way around it.

The big problem is not that these problems exist or why they happen - it's how they deal with them after they happen.  Dishonestly. 



For the record: I think that the actual technical issue which they refuse to aknowledge even exists has something to do the system not reporting tournament fees the same for WPN tournament re-entries or late registrations.  Either that or certain tournaments are just not reported at all. 

[ftwbtc1]

First time in awhile, I have come here and found this thread on the second page!  The trolls aren't keeping up with their marketing efforts clearly. 

Are you guys running the BitcoinTalk 6 Max NL Showdown this weekend?   I didn't see that in the lobby and definitely like the setup of this tournament. 

[dooglus]

First time in awhile, I have come here and found this thread on the second page!  The trolls aren't keeping up with their marketing efforts clearly. 

This is the first time I've worried about betcoin being a scam.

One thing all scam site threads have in common is that negative criticism, no matter how valid, is rejected as "FUD" or "trolling".

Is that the best you can do? How about actually addressing the concerns people have raised rather than claiming that there is a "discussion" going on, while discounting the views of anyone who disagrees with you?

Meanwhile the dice continue to roll my way:



and I'm having no trouble at all withdrawing my winnings:



So if it is a scam, at least it is "paying" at the moment...

Please guys, if you're legit, step up your game and get on top of the customer support situation.

[TwitchySeal]

But it seems that you are implying that I am preventing this from happening.

Not sure how you inferred that, but I can assure you that I was not at all implying that you are preventing anything from happening. And for that matter, nor was I implying that Betcoin or anyone else was preventing anything from happening neither. The only thing I meant or implied by what you quoted me on was only exactly what I wrote. I can bullshit a lot here and in other parts of the forum as well as outside it. But when it comes to serious topics I try to choose my words carefully.

By making posts endorsing them or thanking them for their services tells Betcoin that you think what they're doing is OK.  It also tells other similar businesses (which you may use already or in the future) that behaving like they have is OK.

That's your viewpoint and opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. Who am I or anyone else  to tell you what you are supposed to think. I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you though. And I can only speak for myself, but when I make posts endorsing the merits and services Betcoin offers, I am literally doing just and only that - endorsing the merits and services of Betcoin and nothing more. And I stand by all the posts I've made doing so. Other people may have had different experiences with Betcoin then me obviously, but I can only go with my own personal ones.

How Betcoin takes that or how you or anyone else takes it including other businesses, I have no control over. I'm not going to include a disclaimer with every endorsement I make itemizing the things I am not endorsing. Yes, I get what you are saying, but I just don't see it that way from my standpoint. If hypothetically, I wanted to convey that I endorsed any kind of mishandling of issues that you've brought up, then I would just do so in plain terms.  Like I said, I can only speak for myself.

And no need to try to infer or figure out any mysterious meanings in any of my posts. Just take them literally as is. Trust me. 

I respect everything you're saying and hope you continue to follow where things go from here and share your honest opinions.  I suspect this may be only the beginning.

First time in awhile, I have come here and found this thread on the second page!  The trolls aren't keeping up with their marketing efforts clearly. 

This is the first time I've worried about betcoin being a scam.

One thing all scam site threads have in common is that negative criticism, no matter how valid, is rejected as "FUD" or "trolling".

Is that the best you can do? How about actually addressing the concerns people have raised rather than claiming that there is a "discussion" going on, while discounting the views of anyone who disagrees with you?

Meanwhile the dice continue to roll my way:



and I'm having no trouble at all withdrawing my winnings:



So if it is a scam, at least it is "paying" at the moment...

Please guys, if you're legit, step up your game and get on top of the customer support situation.

Theyve had a lot of success by discrediting and ignoring critics in the past.  It's worked with me a couple times as well as well as plenty of others (including some who did deserve to be discredited and ignored).  So it makes sense they think it will work again, I wonder how long before they realize it's not going to work this time. 

[Betcoin.AG]

A scam?  One thing we always see is the word scam being used very freely here at Bitcointalk.  We can't control if some bitcointalk members think other bitcointalk members are trolling or not.  You are addressing a player on our website and Betcoin at the same time with these comments and the player certainly doesn't speak for Betcoin. 

Dooglus, we have close to 1,000 players daily on Betcoin, over 100 tickets and 50-100 live chat customer support tickets daily.  Our parent company and owners overlap with BetCris and the WPN and have been in business over 16 years.  Customer service can always be improved and will continue to be improved, but we are surprised by your use of the word scam. 

With that said, we are reviewing your particular ticket in detail still and as stated would have the resolution in full by Monday at the latest.  On another note, the traffic and player volume has increased to its highest point over the last 2 weeks, which we are very happy to report. 

[Betcoin.AG]

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[TwitchySeal]

We can't control if some bitcointalk members think other bitcointalk members are trolling or not. 

Do you think my posts in this thread are just trolling you?

Why have you ignored me and the issues I bring up?

Why not present a valid defense?

Why did you ban me?

[pukis]

Sunday December 6 Main Event, it would be nice to win a ticket through satellite, one time plz 

[plo8monster]

With everything going on I had to come share my experience at Betcoin.

Betcoin is my place to play because from day one they have kept their word with me...

I respect Betcoin's integrity. I am in a unique position to see just how sincere and deep it runs.

Because we share the same passion: to create a safe and pleasant environment for you bitcoin players to call home.

Because the Betcoin Staff and Dev team, know how to make a cake from scratch, I look at Betcoin.ag as one stop shopping...I look back to where Betcoin came from, to where Betcoin is now, and to where it is going with Betcoin.ag as a Haven. It even gets to feeling like a home game with the camaraderie and the feuds between players.

I love the VIP, i just hit emerald II and it gets pretty juicy now....It beats any out there that i know of... and is less complicated by far...

Most of all i just love the Betcoin.ag community .... and the Betcoin.ag forum,(that allows us to know each other)
that allows players to help other players.... and i always get a warm fuzzy feeling when i see that happening... I truly look forward to seeing all the Betcoin.ag members daily....

~~plo8

[DarkDays]

With everything going on I had to come share my experience at Betcoin.

Betcoin is my place to play because from day one they have kept their word with me...

I respect Betcoin's integrity. I am in a unique position to see just how sincere and deep it runs.

Because we share the same passion: to create a safe and pleasant environment for you bitcoin players to call home.

Because the Betcoin Staff and Dev team, know how to make a cake from scratch, I look at Betcoin.ag as one stop shopping...I look back to where Betcoin came from, to where Betcoin is now, and to where it is going with Betcoin.ag as a Haven. It even gets to feeling like a home game with the camaraderie and the feuds between players.

I love the VIP, i just hit emerald II and it gets pretty juicy now....It beats any out there that i know of... and is less complicated by far...

Most of all i just love the Betcoin.ag community .... and the Betcoin.ag forum,(that allows us to know each other)
that allows players to help other players.... and i always get a warm fuzzy feeling when i see that happening... I truly look forward to seeing all the Betcoin.ag members daily....

~~plo8

Don't you work for Betcoin?

[Betcoin.AG]

Sunday December 6 Main Event, it would be nice to win a ticket through satellite, one time plz 

pukis, yes it would be nice!  We have many satellites and to the main event.  Get qualified and good luck.  Wouldn't it be great to take home 560 bitcoin!

[dooglus]

A scam?  One thing we always see is the word scam being used very freely here at Bitcointalk.  We can't control if some bitcointalk members think other bitcointalk members are trolling or not.  You are addressing a player on our website and Betcoin at the same time with these comments and the player certainly doesn't speak for Betcoin. 

I'm not saying it's a scam. Perhaps part of the problem is the language barrier. What comes across as crappy customer support may simple be the result of support agents not understanding the language well enough. It's hard to tell the difference between being issues being willfully ignored and honestly misunderstood.

Dooglus, we have close to 1,000 players daily on Betcoin, over 100 tickets and 50-100 live chat customer support tickets daily.

That seems to suggest that around 20% of your users have trouble every day. That in itself is a worrying sign. What are they all having so much trouble with? It seems to me that you have too many players on a site that isn't really ready for prime-time yet. Fix the bugs first, and then focus on attracting players. Doing it in the opposite order is just making more work for yourselves.

Our parent company and owners overlap with BetCris and the WPN and have been in business over 16 years.  Customer service can always be improved and will continue to be improved, but we are surprised by your use of the word scam. 

I'm not familiar with either BetCris or WPN, and so haven't ever experienced their customer support. How does it compare to yours?

Forget the word "scam". All I said was that the only place I've seen negative feedback repeatedly ignored or labelled as "FUD" is for services which ended up being scams. Legit services tend respond to negative feedback in a more professional manner.

With that said, we are reviewing your particular ticket in detail still and as stated would have the resolution in full by Monday at the latest.  On another note, the traffic and player volume has increased to its highest point over the last 2 weeks, which we are very happy to report. 

Where was "Monday at the latest" stated? I've not seen it anywhere. Is it possible that you are replying to me via some channel I'm unaware of? That could explain a lot.

[Betcoin.AG]

First time in awhile, I have come here and found this thread on the second page!  The trolls aren't keeping up with their marketing efforts clearly. 

Are you guys running the BitcoinTalk 6 Max NL Showdown this weekend?   I didn't see that in the lobby and definitely like the setup of this tournament. 

ftwbtc1, thank you for your interest in this tournament.  It can be found in the lobby.  Quite a bit of activity here in the forum!

[Betcoin.AG]

With everything going on I had to come share my experience at Betcoin.

Betcoin is my place to play because from day one they have kept their word with me...

I respect Betcoin's integrity. I am in a unique position to see just how sincere and deep it runs.

Because we share the same passion: to create a safe and pleasant environment for you bitcoin players to call home.

Because the Betcoin Staff and Dev team, know how to make a cake from scratch, I look at Betcoin.ag as one stop shopping...I look back to where Betcoin came from, to where Betcoin is now, and to where it is going with Betcoin.ag as a Haven. It even gets to feeling like a home game with the camaraderie and the feuds between players.

I love the VIP, i just hit emerald II and it gets pretty juicy now....It beats any out there that i know of... and is less complicated by far...

Most of all i just love the Betcoin.ag community .... and the Betcoin.ag forum,(that allows us to know each other)
that allows players to help other players.... and i always get a warm fuzzy feeling when i see that happening... I truly look forward to seeing all the Betcoin.ag members daily....

~~plo8

plo8monster, thank you for sharing your experience.  We will continue to work very hard to provide an exceptional place for everyone to enjoy.  We thank you for being a part of our great and growing community. 

[DarkDays]

With everything going on I had to come share my experience at Betcoin.

Betcoin is my place to play because from day one they have kept their word with me...

I respect Betcoin's integrity. I am in a unique position to see just how sincere and deep it runs.

Because we share the same passion: to create a safe and pleasant environment for you bitcoin players to call home.

Because the Betcoin Staff and Dev team, know how to make a cake from scratch, I look at Betcoin.ag as one stop shopping...I look back to where Betcoin came from, to where Betcoin is now, and to where it is going with Betcoin.ag as a Haven. It even gets to feeling like a home game with the camaraderie and the feuds between players.

I love the VIP, i just hit emerald II and it gets pretty juicy now....It beats any out there that i know of... and is less complicated by far...

Most of all i just love the Betcoin.ag community .... and the Betcoin.ag forum,(that allows us to know each other)
that allows players to help other players.... and i always get a warm fuzzy feeling when i see that happening... I truly look forward to seeing all the Betcoin.ag members daily....

~~plo8

plo8monster, thank you for sharing your experience.  We will continue to work very hard to provide an exceptional place for everyone to enjoy.  We thank you for being a part of our great and growing community. 

Doesn't he work for your company?  Why have neither of you said that?

[TwitchySeal]

With everything going on I had to come share my experience at Betcoin.

Betcoin is my place to play because from day one they have kept their word with me...

I respect Betcoin's integrity. I am in a unique position to see just how sincere and deep it runs.

Because we share the same passion: to create a safe and pleasant environment for you bitcoin players to call home.

Because the Betcoin Staff and Dev team, know how to make a cake from scratch, I look at Betcoin.ag as one stop shopping...I look back to where Betcoin came from, to where Betcoin is now, and to where it is going with Betcoin.ag as a Haven. It even gets to feeling like a home game with the camaraderie and the feuds between players.

I love the VIP, i just hit emerald II and it gets pretty juicy now....It beats any out there that i know of... and is less complicated by far...

Most of all i just love the Betcoin.ag community .... and the Betcoin.ag forum,(that allows us to know each other)
that allows players to help other players.... and i always get a warm fuzzy feeling when i see that happening... I truly look forward to seeing all the Betcoin.ag members daily....

~~plo8

Plo8,

I believe that you are passionate about creating a safe and pleasant environment to play online poker for Bitcoin.

I doubt you will believe this, but I have the same passion.

I think Betcoin did you the favor of making you an official "site pro" and you feel like it's your responsibility to stay loyal to them no matter what.  But you're ignoring your responsibility as a poker player and it's doing more damage than good.

Please, just listen to me, go back and read all my posts in this thread objectively and respond.  Some of them are long and complicated, but it's your job.

I believe you have done little more than looked at each of my posts and written me off as just another player that loves to bitch.  Perhaps you are afraid of what you may learn, I don't know .

I challenge you to explain why any of my issues are not valid and don't deserve a valid response. 

Also, your son (another "moderator" on Betcoin) offered to speak with me over the phone to discuss the issues.  We exchanged texts and he eventually blew me off.  I'm not going to pester him by texting over and over, but let him know I'm still willing to speak with him, or you, or anyone to discuss this.  I'm doing everything I can to prove that I am not full of shit and I'm not going to stop without exhausting every option. 

[Betcoin.AG]

We will keep you updated!

Coming to BETCOIN POKER, ACR and the WPN!!!!

We’re bringing HUGE tournament poker action back with the Online Super Series V!  With bigger prize pools and even more added tournaments from November 27th to December 6th, this series is one you won’t want to miss! This 10 days of jam packed excitement leads up to the currently 3,000 BTC ($1,000,000) Guaranteed prize pool Main Event on December 6th at 5pm EST!

The OSS V offers something for every type of poker player.  The series will hold diverse game types including Texas Holdem, Pot-Limit Omaha and PLO8 games with re-buy and re-entry structures along with an assortment of buyins.

With 76 tournaments and over currently 7,800 BTC ($2.6 million) in prize pools the OSS V is bound to have a number of events to fit your needs!!  We wish everyone the best of luck!

We are getting a lot of questions PM on at Betcoin.ag regarding the full schedule so we wanted to share the full schedule here:

All payouts are in the bitcoin value of course at Betcoin Poker. 

[dooglus]

Where was "Monday at the latest" stated? I've not seen it anywhere. Is it possible that you are replying to me via some channel I'm unaware of? That could explain a lot.

When replying to this question, please use this thread and not the channel of which I am unaware.

Thanks.