Vertcoin - First Scrypt N | First Stealth Address - Privacy without mixer

[inqd]

still having real issues trying to sync the Vertcoin wallet
the suggestions on http://www.reddit.com/r/vertcoin/comments/1x0zda/how_to_get_your_wallet_to_sync/
didn't work.

Someone please help!

[ShadesOfMarble]

I really do like the idea of Vertcoin. Still, two things come to my mind:

1.) Claiming something is "ASIC proof". No algorithm is that. You can always develop an ASIC. GPUs are ASICs, after all. Take the design of a GPU, strip everything not needed for Vertcoin mining and that's your VTC-ASIC. Still, of course, that ASIC would be way more complex than any SHA/BTC ASIC and would require loads of fast memory, thus making it very expensive (compared to SHA and even scrypt/LTC ASICS). But this immediately leads to my second point.

2.) How bad are ASICs after all? With SHA, there is a low entry level for developing an ASIC. With VTC, this "entry barrier" would be much higher. Imagine VTC would be as popular as BTC is now. I'm going to guarantee you that at least one person/group would be into developing a VTC ASIC. But that's the problem: Only few entities would have the funds to do so, much fewer than with Bitcoin. After all, this will lead to more centralization, not less.

I don't like that "hobby mining" is gone in the Bitcoin world, I don't like how much current ASICs are overpriced.

But I still think the Bitcoin network is better off with all the ASICs than the VTC network would be.

No worries. The coin is software. ASICs are hardware. A simple algorithm tweak proposed by the VTC developers and agreed upon by the community will shake off an ASIC. Even a change to N-factor schedule would wreak havoc on ASIC makers' business plans. As long as Vertans say ASICs are not welcome here, we'll be able to preserve the 'hobby mining' angle for a good while.


Edit: BTW I don't like the asics at all, mostly because of the incredible disruption they caused. There are not many companies that can make asics this complex, and when they do have working units they extensivly 'test' them before they ship them out. That's what I think BFL and such did.
  

HinnomTX,

ShadesOfMarble does have a point though, IMO. Asics (and FPGAs) are sort of in between hardware and software. The GPU (the core itself) is basically an ASIC. With lots of functionality that's not required for mining.

So if you could strip the unneeded parts from a graphicscard's GPU you could create an mining-specific PCB with a higher efficiency and probably lower power requirements. And you could change the N-factor just as easily.

I think that would would require an incredible amount of engineering though, you'd be doing AMD's and Nvidia's work basically. To me that doesn't sound feasible.

Unless AMD and Nvidia themselves would start producing those miners. Then again, the downside of anything application specific is that they're completely useless if this whole *coin-world collapses.

I don't think that will happen, but for a company this is probably a big risk.

This is my whole point. If there is enough money in it, some entity will do it. But only companies with a very good funding will be able to do it.

Fast forward to 2017, everybody is using Vertcoin now because they thought it will free the cryptocurrency world from "those ASIC companies". But, boom! AMD just developed an ASIC miner, because their GPUs are really good at mining anyway, so they just removed everything not needed for mining, no video output etc, high power VRMs for insane clock speeds, loads of high-speed memory (because they are such a big company and buy tons of it they get it cheaper than anyone else), so they run 10-100x more efficient (both MH/s/J and USD/(Mh/s)) than the GPUs they sell. So now all the hashing power basically lays in the hand of one company. Because the design of the ASIC is very complex, no other company competes with AMD. What now?

With SHA, you could even go the "ultra cheap" route and do a hardcopy ASIC with existing (open source) HDL code. How many SHA ASICs do we have? A dozen? They all compete and are at least an oligopoly.

Anyway: The statement "No more ASICs" ist just not true. It should say "Currently no ASICs".

[dedicatedpoolcom]

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[Basnoff]

This is my whole point. If there is enough money in it, some entity will do it. But only companies with a very good funding will be able to do it.

Fast forward to 2017, everybody is using Vertcoin now because they thought it will free the cryptocurrency world from "those ASIC companies". But, boom! AMD just developed an ASIC miner, because their GPUs are really good at mining anyway, so they just removed everything not needed for mining, no video output etc, high power VRMs for insane clock speeds, loads of high-speed memory (because they are such a big company and buy tons of it they get it cheaper than anyone else), so they run 10-100x more efficient (both MH/s/J and USD/(Mh/s)) than the GPUs they sell. So now all the hashing power basically lays in the hand of one company. Because the design of the ASIC is very complex, no other company competes with AMD. What now?

With SHA, you could even go the "ultra cheap" route and do a hardcopy ASIC with existing (open source) HDL code. How many SHA ASICs do we have? A dozen? They all compete and are at least an oligopoly.

Anyway: The statement "No more ASICs" ist just not true. It should say "Currently no ASICs".

ShadesOfMarble,

Also read tsh's reaction to my post though, he brings up an interesting point regarding the powerconsumption/efficiency of Asics.

Edit: Wait, I'll paste it in:

ShadesOfMarble does have a point though, IMO. Asics (and FPGAs) are sort of in between hardware and software. The GPU (the core itself) is basically an ASIC. With lots of functionality that's not required for mining.

I think this misses the reason that mining specific ASIC are efficient. The GPU core is a parallel vector compute engine, in effect a specialised CPU. I'm not sure that there is a big overhead on a graphics card (above a few $$ driver chips) which could be saved. The power benefit of a SHA or SCRYPT ASIC comes from the fact that they are not programmable. The single function that they compute is hard-wired (hence it is impossible to re-target them effectively). The same reasoning is behind ASIC being more efficient than FPGA (although the mechanism is different). Silicon resource that is not used 100% every cycle is a cost - but is needed if you need to support configurable algorithms.
An algorithm which pushes the energy cost almost completely to pushing data through RAM will further reduce the benefit to be made by doing the compute side efficiently.

[mega]

I really do like the idea of Vertcoin. Still, two things come to my mind:

1.) Claiming something is "ASIC proof". No algorithm is that. You can always develop an ASIC. GPUs are ASICs, after all. Take the design of a GPU, strip everything not needed for Vertcoin mining and that's your VTC-ASIC. Still, of course, that ASIC would be way more complex than any SHA/BTC ASIC and would require loads of fast memory, thus making it very expensive (compared to SHA and even scrypt/LTC ASICS). But this immediately leads to my second point.

2.) How bad are ASICs after all? With SHA, there is a low entry level for developing an ASIC. With VTC, this "entry barrier" would be much higher. Imagine VTC would be as popular as BTC is now. I'm going to guarantee you that at least one person/group would be into developing a VTC ASIC. But that's the problem: Only few entities would have the funds to do so, much fewer than with Bitcoin. After all, this will lead to more centralization, not less.

I don't like that "hobby mining" is gone in the Bitcoin world, I don't like how much current ASICs are overpriced.

But I still think the Bitcoin network is better off with all the ASICs than the VTC network would be.

No worries. The coin is software. ASICs are hardware. A simple algorithm tweak proposed by the VTC developers and agreed upon by the community will shake off an ASIC. Even a change to N-factor schedule would wreak havoc on ASIC makers' business plans. As long as Vertans say ASICs are not welcome here, we'll be able to preserve the 'hobby mining' angle for a good while.


Edit: BTW I don't like the asics at all, mostly because of the incredible disruption they caused. There are not many companies that can make asics this complex, and when they do have working units they extensivly 'test' them before they ship them out. That's what I think BFL and such did.
  

HinnomTX,

ShadesOfMarble does have a point though, IMO. Asics (and FPGAs) are sort of in between hardware and software. The GPU (the core itself) is basically an ASIC. With lots of functionality that's not required for mining.

So if you could strip the unneeded parts from a graphicscard's GPU you could create an mining-specific PCB with a higher efficiency and probably lower power requirements. And you could change the N-factor just as easily.

I think that would would require an incredible amount of engineering though, you'd be doing AMD's and Nvidia's work basically. To me that doesn't sound feasible.

Unless AMD and Nvidia themselves would start producing those miners. Then again, the downside of anything application specific is that they're completely useless if this whole *coin-world collapses.

I don't think that will happen, but for a company this is probably a big risk.

This is my whole point. If there is enough money in it, some entity will do it. But only companies with a very good funding will be able to do it.

Fast forward to 2017, everybody is using Vertcoin now because they thought it will free the cryptocurrency world from "those ASIC companies". But, boom! AMD just developed an ASIC miner, because their GPUs are really good at mining anyway, so they just removed everything not needed for mining, no video output etc, high power VRMs for insane clock speeds, loads of high-speed memory (because they are such a big company and buy tons of it they get it cheaper than anyone else), so they run 10-100x more efficient (both MH/s/J and USD/(Mh/s)) than the GPUs they sell. So now all the hashing power basically lays in the hand of one company. Because the design of the ASIC is very complex, no other company competes with AMD. What now?

With SHA, you could even go the "ultra cheap" route and do a hardcopy ASIC with existing (open source) HDL code. How many SHA ASICs do we have? A dozen? They all compete and are at least an oligopoly.

Anyway: The statement "No more ASICs" ist just not true. It should say "Currently no ASICs".

The thing is, if the community doesn't want ASICS, they will never mine successfully for long.

[Dukester797]

MaxCoin broke the internet.  Prepare for another rise of VTC

[uswapme]

holy shie. look at the litecoin.

[peligro]

Big buy orders on cryptsy.

[Dukester797]

holy shie. look at the litecoin.

what about it?  it's been in about $20-$20.50 all day

[Basnoff]

Wow... So how many messed up launches are we going to see?

[luthan]

Join us today

FIX your on demand payout fee.  0.3 VTC for a transaction?  are you fuckin retarded?

[azurex]

I created an account @ vertco.in earlier today, but I did not recieve the confirmation e-mail.

Does anyone know if this e-mail can be resent? I have already mined a bit and the confirmation is needed for enable payouts.

I have tried to conact the moderators, still no response.

Bump, anyone?

[tsh]

... so they just removed everything not needed for mining, no video output etc, high power VRMs for insane clock speeds, loads of high-speed memory (because they are such a big company and buy tons of it they get it cheaper than anyone else), so they run 10-100x more efficient (both MH/s/J and USD/(Mh/s)) than the GPUs they sell.

Unlikely. 1.05x more efficient, I'd believe. I don't know how you come up with 10x-100x...

GPUs are already built mainly for GPU-compute. People use them in supercomputers today. Yes, in theory someone like AMD could spin a GPU with some dedicated generic crypto accelerators, but you always have 2 ways to go. Flexibility to accommodate different workloads, or flat out performance on a pre-determined workload.

[mfpowernl]

Fuk the maxcoin because of that stupid coin i can not reach this website!Tonight the vertcoin will rise again because the people will see what a scam coin the maxcoin is!

[BBristow79]

Someone really wants to keep VTC low on Cryptsy. Every time it's rising giant sell orders appear and back down it goes.

If I had the btc I would eat that sell order just to stop them from doing it

There needs to be more volume so this crap stops, or at least will be more difficult.

[Dukester797]

Someone really wants to keep VTC low on Cryptsy. Every time it's rising giant sell orders appear and back down it goes.

If I had the btc I would eat that sell order just to stop them from doing it

There needs to be more volume so this crap stops, or at least will be more difficult.

It's people with an interest in MaxCon

[Basnoff]

Someone really wants to keep VTC low on Cryptsy. Every time it's rising giant sell orders appear and back down it goes.

If I had the btc I would eat that sell order just to stop them from doing it

There needs to be more volume so this crap stops, or at least will be more difficult.

Indeed! Wish I could cough up the BTCs to mess his game up.

[mfpowernl]

Someone really wants to keep VTC low on Cryptsy. Every time it's rising giant sell orders appear and back down it goes.

If I had the btc I would eat that sell order just to stop them from doing it

There needs to be more volume so this crap stops, or at least will be more difficult.

If just someone invest 10btc in the vtc he can put the hole market to the next level! And he also have a big win then :-)

[FreePls]

After i try to send coins i get this error messagge:

Critical error occured. Vertcoin will shut down. EXCEPTION: St13 runtime_error TopUpKeyPool(): writing generator key failed

Then, client shuts down and every time i try to do the transaction it happens again

Any help?

ps:  windows wallet

no one any idea? 

...

[WutriCoin]

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To connect to this P2Pool node simply point your miner at:

URL: stratum+tcp://cryptopool.cloudapp.net:9171
Username: Your vertcoin address
Password: Anything

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cgminer.exe --scrypt -o stratum+tcp://cryptopool.cloudapp.net:9171 -u VbNPoxNeiNg6Bj9RwjjS4GazDbKLgUqNDP -p X

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