Vertcoin - First Scrypt N | First Stealth Address - Privacy without mixer

[turtoro]

Vote for VTC here:

http://www.allcrypt.com/beta/voting.php

Guys,
Dont forget to vote there

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[lagur]

If VTC is not really a full asic resistant then that would still make the coin be at least a year better than any other scrypt coins out there.

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[goin2mars]

Thanks tacotime for starting this. I would love to see more opinions.

If we got an ASIC designed for N-factor x and the N-factor changes to y. Would the N-factor x ASIC still be efficent on N-facot y?

Yes.  Adjusting N-factor will not help very much so long as the ASIC already has N-factor set up to be dynamic, which should not be expensive to implement.  Making it larger is ideal, but the problem is that GPUs themselves use the same trick ASICs do to calculate hashes for larger N-factors in parallel, so it's not really a huge help.

It's part of the reason I'm dropping scrypt from the next MC2 whitepaper, most likely.

Thank you for the direct response before. We have pretty much reached my level of understanding in this matter until I educate myself better.

Anyways, after looking at the code wouldn't having those extra variables be easier to implement in an FPGA?

Also, is the mixing function designed to accept a specific amount of data using one N value, or would is just take twice as long as previous Nfactor + 1?

I'm saying this because increasing the size of y by one will double the amount of memory used, and then send it off to be mixed.

In the very least, I could see the mixing speed decrease by half with every increase in N value i guess.

[djcrypto]

About P2Pool mining, I tried it and I kept getting harsh amount of rejects. Is that common or am I doing something wrong? I tried all the closest nodes with lowest latency.

[rapsac]

Thanks tacotime for starting this. I would love to see more opinions.

If we got an ASIC designed for N-factor x and the N-factor changes to y. Would the N-factor x ASIC still be efficent on N-facot y?

Yes.  Adjusting N-factor will not help very much so long as the ASIC already has N-factor set up to be dynamic, which should not be expensive to implement.  Making it larger is ideal, but the problem is that GPUs themselves use the same trick ASICs do to calculate hashes for larger N-factors in parallel, so it's not really a huge help.

It's part of the reason I'm dropping scrypt from the next MC2 whitepaper, most likely.

Asics are designed to be as low cost as possible and thus will not be designed* for a changing N factor. Also your previous post where you said that even current asics can run adaptive N but at lower speed is not true. The asics would need to be redesigned for this and without extra ram the performance would suck bigtime.
Even with more ram they would not be very effective; the gpu's use 1000 or more threads to reach the speed advantage they get now (scrypt: 6kH asic vs 800kH/s gpu), and all those threads use the same ram. To design a ram controller+hardware scheduler+cache for an asic is not economically possible (let alone you will be allowed to do so as every technique is patented). This means even possible future asics will be incredibly slow compared to gpu's as they cannot use the ram as effectively and will have to have seperate ram for every core.
<edit>Also ram is relativly slow, be it in an asic or on a vga card. An asic will suffer much more from this bottleneck as they will run the salsa at the same speed as gpus, and thus loosing their 'speed advantage' over a substantial part of the algo. 
And also: VTC is THE ASIC RESISTANT COIN, as is advertised. Changes have been made to the coin requiring a fork, why do you think this will not happen again as soon as asics for adaptive-n are announced?

*: with the current adaptive-n you would design for a specific N value; N changes so slowly that an asic could be used for a year or so, more than long enough to get your money back+profit. What is the life span of bitcoin asics at the moment, 6 months?

[Basnoff]

As far as I know FPGAs are a lot more power hungry, a lot slower, and have a lower density.

[tacotime]

Thank you for the direct response before. We have pretty much reached my level of understanding in this matter until I educate myself better.

Anyways, after looking at the code wouldn't having those extra variables be easier to implement in an FPGA?

I think you can easily do so with FPGA; see https://github.com/kramble/FPGA-Litecoin-Miner

The author already implements the LOOKUP_GAP=2 version of the core algo and states it's faster among multiple cores

This doesn't mean it will be fast or energy efficient on the FPGA, though

Also, is the mixing function designed to accept a specific amount of data using one N value, or would is just take twice as long as previous Nfactor + 1?

I'm saying this because increasing the size of y by one will double the amount of memory used, and then send it off to be mixed.

In the very least, I could see the mixing speed decrease by half with every increase in N value i guess.

I'm not sure I totally understand your question, but I think y in this implementation is logarithmic for N (y=log(N)).  Hence y+1 = ~doubling of mixing

[nasone32]

It's part of the reason I'm dropping scrypt from the next MC2 whitepaper, most likely.

so are you here to advertise your own coin?

[tacotime]

It's part of the reason I'm dropping scrypt from the next MC2 whitepaper, most likely.

so are you here to advertise your own coin?

No, especially when all of that is just theoretical at this point...

[nasone32]

ok. however i got your point.

the real thing is:

this coin will be asic resistant, just because it is stated in the title.
i mean, no real asic developer would risk that amount of money to strike against a coin that has clearly declared war against them.
they have a long development and cannot imagine what countermeasures would be taken from the developers in case.

just the idea of a fork to change algorithm is enough to make that investment too risky.

[mjsrs]

ok. however i got your point.

the real thing is:

this coin will be asic resistant, just because it is stated in the title.
i mean, no real asic developer would risk that amount of money to strike against a coin that has clearly declared war against them.
they have a long development and cannot imagine what countermeasures would be taken from the developers in case.

just the idea of a fork to change algorithm is enough to make that investment too risky.

touché!

[tacotime]

ok. however i got your point.

the real thing is:

this coin will be asic resistant, just because it is stated in the title.
i mean, no real asic developer would risk that amount of money to strike against a coin that has clearly declared war against them.
they have a long development and cannot imagine what countermeasures would be taken from the developers in case.

just the idea of a fork to change algorithm is enough to make that investment too risky.

Well, yes, you can always just keep changing the hash function itself every 3 months or something so long as your community agrees with it.

[drepteck]

So people are coming to the realization that this coin, while slightly innovative, still isn't ASIC proof as is being promoted. This probably explains the massive drop in price.

[jballs]

Whoever has the vertcoin twitter feed. Please teeet something along the lines of.

"What is the best way to hedge against falling #bitcoin? Buy vertcoin. Limited supply, new and still priced low. Fastest percentage gainer in altcoin history."

This will work if we can get critical mass. World needs a bitcoin hedge. Enough bitcoin holders to stabilize vtc and give them somewhere to run. VTC is holding up incredibly well given the mood. If can get the optics turned so Vertcoin is seen as a flighy to quality we have the perfect coin. No other fits the bill.  


#betterthanbitcoin.

[landslide]

i see it's already there in cryptsy. good coin.

[Starlightbreaker]

will this coin go to cryptsy soon?

...really?

[nonny12]

So people are coming to the realization that this coin, while slightly innovative, still isn't ASIC proof as is being promoted. This probably explains the massive drop in price.

That's not the reason at all. A retracement after the HUGE gain this coin has had is expected. Almost all crypto is down today, as well.

[landslide]

will this coin go to cryptsy soon?

...really?

just saw it in OP it's in the middle of the list, missed it at first glance.

[jballs]

i see it's already there in cryptsy. good coin.

Coinedup has dramatically improved the last couple days and I highly recommend moving your money to there or poloniex. This nonsense about deposits and withdrawal being "under maintenance" is probably some sort of price manipulation.  Dont know but that site blows and you have a lot of alternatives.  Bter.com also.