[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[watuba]

Not really, you're missing the denomination part.

User A wants to pay $103
User B wants to pay $254
User C wants to pay $51
User D wants to pay $53

-- All of them deposit their bills into the bucket:
$100,$1,$1,$1 == 103
$100,$100,$50,$1,$1,$1,$1 == 254
$50,$1 == 51
$50,$1,$1,$1 == 53

---- Now, count the bills of each kind
3x $100
3x $50
11x $1


Now the people randomly come collect what they're owed.

Who paid who?

Could you not just see that the destination address balance matches the total amount withdrawn from the beginning address(es)?

Does the change get DarkSent too? That would be pretty cool.

I see how it's much more difficult to track where the bills came from.  I'm still trying to understand how it's completely unsolvable though.  In your example, say now:
User E comes in and collects 1 $100 and 3 $1 = $103
User F comes in and collects 2 $100, 1 $50, and 4 $1 = $254
User G comes in and collects 1 $50 and $1 = $51
User H comes in and collects 1 $50 and 3 $1 = $53
and it's totally random how they collect.  Still, at the the end of the day, can't I deduce that user A paid user E, since their outgoing and incoming wallet balances were the same.

Sorry again, I'm super slow, but if you can explain it to me, you can explain it to a 6 year old

EDIT:  I just realized there isn't a way to determine who controls all these addresses, other than the owners of the wallets, as Tante pointed out.  So, the only real way to tell is based on timing as mentioned below?

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[overflowing]

Trying to mine darkcoin on windows, getting a little frustrating...

I have 5830 (AMD Radeon HD 5800 Series) on windows 7 64-bit.  I downloaded sgminer from the darkcoin.io website.  Updated AMD Catalyst driver from 13.1 to 13.12 (but I also tried with 13.1 first before updating.  Here is my bat file:

Code:

set GPU_MAX_ALLOC_PERCENT=100 
set GPU_USE_SYNC_OBJECTS=1
.\sgminer --kernel darkcoin -o stratum+tcp://stratum1.example.com -u username -p password

(note I'm not really using stratum1.example.com) I'm getting the following error:

Code:

[08:36:44] Started sgminer 4.0.0

[08:37:32] Error -11: Building Program (clBuildProgram)
[08:37:32] Error compiling program for search.

Frontend phase failed compilation.
Error: Creating kernel search failed!

[08:37:32] Failed to init GPU thread 0, disabling device 0
[08:37:32] Restarting the GPU from the menu will not fix this.
[08:37:32] Try restarting sgminer.
Press enter to continue:

If I press enter and wait, the screen goes blank for a little and then:

Code:

[08:38:20] Probing for an alive pool

a couple more messages and then I get a windows dialog box that says:

sgminer.exe has stopped working. Windows can check online for a solution to the problem.

I've seen posts about upgrading to a beta 14.1 driver but I'd rather not do that if possible.  I've seen a couple people have had this issue any progress on this?

[HammerHedd]

Not really, you're missing the denomination part.

User A wants to pay $103
User B wants to pay $254
User C wants to pay $51
User D wants to pay $53

-- All of them deposit their bills into the bucket:
$100,$1,$1,$1 == 103
$100,$100,$50,$1,$1,$1,$1 == 254
$50,$1 == 51
$50,$1,$1,$1 == 53

---- Now, count the bills of each kind
3x $100
3x $50
11x $1


Now the people randomly come collect what they're owed.

Who paid who?

Could you not just see that the destination address balance matches the total amount withdrawn from the beginning address(es)?

Does the change get DarkSent too? That would be pretty cool.

What if you staggered the transactions across multiple blocks in an organized, yet random way -

For example, given that we have a KGW which determines difficulty, it would be reasonable to assume that the difficulty will adjust X amount per block. What if that X amount (or some permutation of it) was used to determine how many blocks would carry each darksend transaction? It would be reconstructable, but not predictable, and would be based on the network itself, not any one node.

Then, keeping with the bucket analogy, you would have (as a simplified example) 3 groups of 3 people who throw money in the bucket at three different times. Then another 3 groups of 3 people take the money out at three different times.

Or would this become hellishly complex and create a vulnerability?

[humanitee]

The payments into the buckets are made by different addresses that only the sender's wallet recognize as being theirs.  Those are mixed up with other people sending via darkcoin, then the analogy eduffield put up makes much more sense!

Humor me for one moment, I feel like I am still missing something.

I want to send 2.1 DRK via DarkSend.
I have 7 DRK.

1 DRK -> New address
6 DRK Change -> New address

1 DRK-> New address
5 DRK Change -> New address

.1 DRK -> New address
4.9 DRK Change -> New address

Now if I examine this on the blockchain I'd see all those transactions. Because all this sending happens at almost the same time, it could be shown that the addresses are most likely linked. Then I could trace the pool to find a final address that ends with 2.1 DRK.

However, if we encourage people to queue multiple transactions, this might help. Say I DarkSend .1 DRK to somebody, then I could make a bunch of dummy transactions that go into the same pool, paid out to myself, at only addresses I know. That could help obfuscate almost entirely, correct?

[TingCoin]

Yes! This is correct, Tante's is better use this on Wikipedia.

Tante, cool with you?

This is amazing! It is definitely the first step to anonymous transactions. However though, I'm sure someone could match destination wallets incomings with payers outgoings within a given time to link the transactions if they really wanted.

Maybe you could add (maybe even as an option to the user) +/-0.2 DRK (or smaller depending on worth of the coin) so if you send someone 55.5 DRK they could receive 55.7 or 55.3 (or anything inbetween). Just a suggestion for future improvement maybe. That would definitely make them harder to link.

[HammerHedd]

The payments into the buckets are made by different addresses that only the sender's wallet recognize as being theirs.  Those are mixed up with other people sending via darkcoin, then the analogy eduffield put up makes much more sense!

Humor me for one moment, I feel like I am still missing something.

I want to send 2.1 DRK via DarkSend.
I have 7 DRK.

1 DRK -> New address
6 DRK Change -> New address

1 DRK-> New address
5 DRK Change -> New address

.1 DRK -> New address
4.9 DRK -> New address

Now if I examine this on the blockchain I'd see all those transactions. Because all this sending happens at almost the same time, it could be shown that the addresses are most likely linked. Then I could trace the pool to find a final address that ends with 2.1 DRK.

However, if we encourage people to queue multiple transactions, this might help. Say I send .1 DRK to somebody, then I could make a bunch of dummy transactions that go into the same pool, paid out to myself, at only addresses I know. That could help obfuscate almost entirely, correct?

I believe that darksend does essentially what you are suggesting, breaking the transaction down into smaller, similiarly-sized pieces. Imagine your example breaking down more like this:

1 DRK -> New Address
1 DRK -> New Address (change)
2.5 DRK -> New Address (change)
2.5 DRK -> New Address (change)

1 DRK -> New Address
1 DRK -> New Address (change)
1 DRK -> New Address (change)
0.5 DRK -> New Address (change)
2.5 DRK -> New Address (change)

0.1 DRK -> New Address
0.1 DRK -> New Address (change)
0.1 DRK -> New Address (change)
0.1 DRK -> New Address (change)
0.1 DRK -> New Address (change)
0.5 DRK -> New Address (change)
1 DRK -> New Address (change)
1 DRK -> New Address (change)
1 DRK -> New Address (change)
1 DRK -> New Address (change)

Now consider that just one other person is doing something similar into the "bucket" and two other people are also getting similar amounts (plus change) from the same bucket. If each address in the list is different, who paid who what?

BTW, I hope this is right - it took me WAY too long to type this.

[coins101]

This is amazing! It is definitely the first step to anonymous transactions. However though, I'm sure someone could match destination wallets incomings with payers outgoings within a given time to link the transactions if they really wanted.

Maybe you could add (maybe even as an option to the user) +/-0.2 DRK (or smaller depending on worth of the coin) so if you send someone 55.5 DRK they could receive 55.7 or 55.3 (or anything inbetween). Just a suggestion for future improvement maybe. That would definitely make them harder to link.

Nice.

Random +/- 0.XXX

[HammerHedd]

This is amazing! It is definitely the first step to anonymous transactions. However though, I'm sure someone could match destination wallets incomings with payers outgoings within a given time to link the transactions if they really wanted.

Maybe you could add (maybe even as an option to the user) +/-0.2 DRK (or smaller depending on worth of the coin) so if you send someone 55.5 DRK they could receive 55.7 or 55.3 (or anything inbetween). Just a suggestion for future improvement maybe. That would definitely make them harder to link.

Nice.

Random +/- 0.XXX

Yeah, good idea... the transaction fee that stays "in the bucket" would make tracking transactions extra hard to figure out.

[cshlock]

Serious question here. Why is AuroraCoin $70.00 USD per coin? It offers nothing new and 50% of it is pre-mined. Is it just me who is confused here?

[humanitee]

I believe that darksend does essentially what you are suggesting, breaking the transaction down into smaller, similiarly-sized pieces. Imagine your example breaking down more like this:

1 DRK -> New Address
1 DRK -> New Address (change)
2.5 DRK -> New Address (change)
2.5 DRK -> New Address (change)

1 DRK -> New Address
1 DRK -> New Address (change)
1 DRK -> New Address (change)
0.5 DRK -> New Address (change)
2.5 DRK -> New Address (change)

0.1 DRK -> New Address
0.1 DRK -> New Address (change)
0.1 DRK -> New Address (change)
0.1 DRK -> New Address (change)
0.1 DRK -> New Address (change)
0.5 DRK -> New Address (change)
1 DRK -> New Address (change)
1 DRK -> New Address (change)
1 DRK -> New Address (change)
1 DRK -> New Address (change)

Now consider that just one other person is doing something similar into the "bucket" and two other people are also getting similar amounts (plus change) from the same bucket. If each address in the list is different, who paid who what?

BTW, I hope this is right - it took me WAY too long to type this.

eduffield, can you describe the DarkSend implementation please?

[watuba]

Serious question here. Why is AuroraCoin $70.00 USD per coin? It offers nothing new and 50% of it is pre-mined. Is it just me who is confused here?

It's because there are only about 100,000 actually in circulation, so a very limited supply drives the price up, even though it's likely not going anywhere.  Drk has 3.6million in circulation, a lot of which has been redistributed by early miners, keeping the price down, for now.

[kingscrown]

Just posted about the coin on my blog with 1k mailing list of followers: http://fuk.io/mineable-cryptocurrencie-to-invest-in-right-now/

[stealth923]

Serious question here. Why is AuroraCoin $70.00 USD per coin? It offers nothing new and 50% of it is pre-mined. Is it just me who is confused here?

don't waste your time - its being pumped to hell by whales - there aren't that many coins released to market. 99% are premined. Market Cap and price is fake.

Once the dump happens for this - it will be of epic proportions and there will be a lot of people on the forums saying "HODL bullshit....the price will rise again tomorrow etc.."

anyways lets get back on track with more important things like DarkSend / DDos protection etc.

[anonymousxx1503]

Serious question here. Why is AuroraCoin $70.00 USD per coin? It offers nothing new and 50% of it is pre-mined. Is it just me who is confused here?

Basically, there will be 21 million coins, exactly like bitcoin. Except that 10.5 million of those are pre-mined by the dev to split between everyone on Iceland.



That leaves around 100 000 coins in circulation right now for trading. The idea behind it, if it doesn't end up being a scam, is in my opinion quite good even if it's just for an experiment in cryptocurrencies.

Now combine that with the fact that it was added to coinmarketcap.com around friday or thursday. I was there 5 minutes after it was added, at around 3$ a coin. Now imagine if only the coins in circulation were shown, that would have meant that market cap would have been 300 000$ , basically sitting at around #57 on the list, no one would have noticed . It wouldn't have attracted any attention. But since the premine is counted, that put it around 31.5 million $ of market cap and at 7th or 8th place when it started ! This attracted tons of attention and now after like 4 or 5 days on there it's already reached 70$ per coin because of pure and simple hype.

I'd love for this experiment to succeed for sure but chances are that it will go down in value a bit once it's released to the population of Iceland, who knows though!

[TanteStefana]

Trying to mine darkcoin on windows, getting a little frustrating...

I have 5830 (AMD Radeon HD 5800 Series) on windows 7 64-bit.  I downloaded sgminer from the darkcoin.io website.  Updated AMD Catalyst driver from 13.1 to 13.12 (but I also tried with 13.1 first before updating.  Here is my bat file:

Code:

set GPU_MAX_ALLOC_PERCENT=100 
set GPU_USE_SYNC_OBJECTS=1
.\sgminer --kernel darkcoin -o stratum+tcp://stratum1.example.com -u username -p password

(note I'm not really using stratum1.example.com) I'm getting the following error:

Code:

[08:36:44] Started sgminer 4.0.0

[08:37:32] Error -11: Building Program (clBuildProgram)
[08:37:32] Error compiling program for search.

Frontend phase failed compilation.
Error: Creating kernel search failed!

[08:37:32] Failed to init GPU thread 0, disabling device 0
[08:37:32] Restarting the GPU from the menu will not fix this.
[08:37:32] Try restarting sgminer.
Press enter to continue:

If I press enter and wait, the screen goes blank for a little and then:

Code:

[08:38:20] Probing for an alive pool

a couple more messages and then I get a windows dialog box that says:

sgminer.exe has stopped working. Windows can check online for a solution to the problem.

I've seen posts about upgrading to a beta 14.1 driver but I'd rather not do that if possible.  I've seen a couple people have had this issue any progress on this?

All is well so far, but you don't say if you downloaded the ADL_SDK?  Download that from AMD and put the contents (or replace same named file) in your sgminer folder and you *should* be good to go!

[AlexGR]

Not really, you're missing the denomination part.

User A wants to pay $103
User B wants to pay $254
User C wants to pay $51
User D wants to pay $53

-- All of them deposit their bills into the bucket:
$100,$1,$1,$1 == 103
$100,$100,$50,$1,$1,$1,$1 == 254
$50,$1 == 51
$50,$1,$1,$1 == 53

---- Now, count the bills of each kind
3x $100
3x $50
11x $1


Now the people randomly come collect what they're owed.

Who paid who?

Could you not just see that the destination address balance matches the total amount withdrawn from the beginning address(es)?

Does the change get DarkSent too? That would be pretty cool.

What if you staggered the transactions across multiple blocks in an organized, yet random way -

For example, given that we have a KGW which determines difficulty, it would be reasonable to assume that the difficulty will adjust X amount per block. What if that X amount (or some permutation of it) was used to determine how many blocks would carry each darksend transaction? It would be reconstructable, but not predictable, and would be based on the network itself, not any one node.

Then, keeping with the bucket analogy, you would have (as a simplified example) 3 groups of 3 people who throw money in the bucket at three different times. Then another 3 groups of 3 people take the money out at three different times.

Or would this become hellishly complex and create a vulnerability?

Without being a cryptography expert, I would guesstimate that if you know

- the exact formula that determines how many blocks carry darksend transactions (and you know it because the code is open source)
- the difficulty at the time point when the send was initiated

...then you can calculate how it'd go. However if you also put a randomizer in there of some sort, to spice up the mix, it could be more robust (?).

As for transactions, I think time tracking of which wallet has what is of importance. Perhaps DarkSend could be used with a sliding bar from 1 to 10 that adjusts the level of privacy/untraceability. As the sliding bar goes higher, the user essentially opts for "deeper" transactions that are "laundered" more times, or that are executed over a larger time frame - perhaps waiting for moments that similar transactions are queued on the network. At setting 10, maybe the fees are higher, but if the person involved wants to pay them for a better "laundering" service, why not.

[coins101]

Serious question here. Why is AuroraCoin $70.00 USD per coin? It offers nothing new and 50% of it is pre-mined. Is it just me who is confused here?

Basically, there will be 21 million coins, exactly like bitcoin. Except that 10.5 million of those are pre-mined by the dev to split between everyone on Iceland.



That leaves around 100 000 coins in circulation right now for trading. The idea behind it, if it doesn't end up being a scam, is in my opinion quite good even if it's just for an experiment in cryptocurrencies.

Now combine that with the fact that it was added to coinmarketcap.com around friday or thursday. I was there 5 minutes after it was added, at around 3$ a coin. Now imagine if only the coins in circulation were shown, that would have meant that market cap would have been 300 000$ , basically sitting at around #57 on the list, no one would have noticed . It wouldn't have attracted any attention. But since the premine is counted, that put it around 31.5 million $ of market cap and at 7th or 8th place when it started ! This attracted tons of attention and now after like 4 or 5 days on there it's already reached 70$ per coin because of pure and simple hype.

I'd love for this experiment to succeed for sure but chances are that it will go down in value a bit once it's released to the population of Iceland, who knows though!

Get some when you want to go to Iceland on holiday. Otherwise, don't get sucked in by the bright lights. Get some DRK shades instead.

[ManOnTheMoon]

May I inquire what the peak of DRK was so far? Any interim predictions for the next few months?

Thank you very much, such a great coin. Innovative, ambitious, awesome dev 

[Brilliantrocket]

May I inquire what the peak of DRK was so far? Any interim predictions for the next few months?

Thank you very much, such a great coin. Innovative, ambitious, awesome dev 

I think it hit .004 when C-CEX got hacked.

[AlexGR]

May I inquire what the peak of DRK was so far? Any interim predictions for the next few months?

https://c-cex.com/index.html?p=drk-btc

Check just prior to the spike of 23rd february. (Spike was caused because of a 300 BTC hack on that exchange that were used to buy DRK and then send them on Poloniex for dumping and laundering the hacked BTCs)