[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[r-ando]

I'm happy we are having these wonderful talks about the future of Darkcoin… and very happy we have finally started discussing possibilities of masternode pools and precious metal backing. Good evening.


https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-update-oct-1-2014.2561/page-7

Precious metal backing??? This defeats the entire purpose of crypto currency. Who do I have to trust to hold my metal in custody for me? This is the dumbest idea in this entire thread.

The entire point is the system already backed by proof of work. All this bitching about fixing things that aren't broken is nothing but a reaction to a low bitcoin and hence a low darkcoin price.

We don't need optimized mining software or unwanted, convoluted extraneous services. We need demand and adoption for its primary purpose, anonymity.

If I may… please stop living out of fear and replace that illusion with love. I'm anticipating a strong reaction on your part 

If there are masternode shares you basically mine with your coins, the system is already hybrid in essence, what we are discussing is changing the percentage of the hybrid state and also making master nodes more available and adding fundamental backing (multi tier), this might be too advanced for you right now but if you think about it you will realize that you are basically stating that you are afraid of change, life is constant change but don't worry you won't get left out…. Please don't speak against discussing possible changes, discussion is important and change is inevitable. If you believe in working on demand and adoption for anonymity services I suggest with all due respect that you work on that. I also think your opinion is valid and is important in any discussion as is everyone else's. This is my opinion.

[georgem]

The ideas I see amount to forming a private cartel for the dozen or so vocal members of the community, fundamentally changing the way a coin works to the detriment of the general user and betraying the philosophical principals of crypto in general.

And I see a bunch of people, who should be ashamed of themselves, agreeing with it.

I agree with you.
Proof of Work is not just waste of energy, it is also the Proof that transactions really happened.
I always assumed that Darkcoin was going to make the public ledger into an anonymous ledger (not readable by outsiders), but certainly not to make it totally disappear?!?. That would be disastrous.

If we only had masternodes, and no POW, I am not sure that the integrity of who owns which coins can be guaranteed AT ALL.
Masternodes are not here to look after the integrity of the ledger. They are basically mixers. They have nothing to do with guaranteeing the integrity of the ledger.

[IYFTech]

What's with all the moaning on this thread?  Anyone would think you're a bunch of greedy misery guts.......

Check it out:



4 of the last 5 blocks found on my node. Result 

Less moaning about fiat prices ffs, deal with it & mine........

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

I'm happy we are having these wonderful talks about the future of Darkcoin… and very happy we have finally started discussing possibilities of masternode pools and precious metal backing. Good evening.


https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-update-oct-1-2014.2561/page-7

Precious metal backing??? This defeats the entire purpose of crypto currency. Who do I have to trust to hold my metal in custody for me? This is the dumbest idea in this entire thread.

The entire point is the system already backed by proof of work. All this bitching about fixing things that aren't broken is nothing but a reaction to a low bitcoin and hence a low darkcoin price.

We don't need optimized mining software or unwanted, convoluted extraneous services. We need demand and adoption for its primary purpose, anonymity.

If I may… please stop living out of fear and replace that illusion with love. I'm anticipating a strong reaction on your part  

If there are masternode shares you basically mine with your coins, the system is already hybrid in essence, what we are discussing is changing the percentage of the hybrid state and also making master nodes more available and adding fundamental backing (multi tier), this might be too advanced for you right now but if you think about it you will realize that you are basically stating that you are afraid of change, life is constant change but don't worry you won't get left out…. Please don't speak against discussing possible changes, discussion is important and change is inevitable. If you believe in working on demand and adoption for anonymity services I suggest with all due respect that you work on that. I also think your opinion is valid and is important in any discussion as is everyone else's. This is my opinion.

Good post...for a Canadian!  

[thelonecrouton]

The ideas I see amount to forming a private cartel for the dozen or so vocal members of the community, fundamentally changing the way a coin works to the detriment of the general user and betraying the philosophical principals of crypto in general.

And I see a bunch of people, who should be ashamed of themselves, agreeing with it.

I agree with you.
Proof of Work is not just waste of energy, it is also the Proof that transactions really happened.
I always assumed that Darkcoin was going to make the public ledger into an anonymous ledger (not readable by outsiders), but certainly not to make it totally disappear?!?. That would be disastrous.

If we only had masternodes, and no POW, I am not sure that the integrity of who owns which coins can be guaranteed AT ALL.

As I keep saying, you don't need 100GH worth of GPU's to maintain a simple blockchain with a few transactions per minute, or even a few thousand.

Nobody is talking about doing away with the blockchain, we're debating (or at least I am ) whether the contribution of miners is really worth 4X more than the contribution of Masternodes to Darkcoin. I don't think it is.

[georgem]

The ideas I see amount to forming a private cartel for the dozen or so vocal members of the community, fundamentally changing the way a coin works to the detriment of the general user and betraying the philosophical principals of crypto in general.

And I see a bunch of people, who should be ashamed of themselves, agreeing with it.

I agree with you.
Proof of Work is not just waste of energy, it is also the Proof that transactions really happened.
I always assumed that Darkcoin was going to make the public ledger into an anonymous ledger (not readable by outsiders), but certainly not to make it totally disappear?!?. That would be disastrous.

If we only had masternodes, and no POW, I am not sure that the integrity of who owns which coins can be guaranteed AT ALL.

As I keep saying, you don't need 100GH worth of GPU's to maintain a simple blockchain with a few transactions per minute, or even a few thousand.

Nobody is talking about doing away with the blockchain, we're debating (or at least I am ) whether the contribution of miners is really worth 4X more than the contribution of Masternodes to Darkcoin. I don't think it is.

Darkcoins come into existence thru mining. And only thru mining. The miners share a few of their new found coins with the masternodes.
Mining is not only about maintaining the blockchain.
Even if there are no transactions for days, it doesn't matter. If there are NO transactions for days, then THAT'S the state of blockchain that has to be integrated and shared for everybody to accept.
The amount of transactions (low or high or whatever) has nothing to do with the validity of mining. It just is what is.  

We have Petahashes of POW miners mining for Bitcoin because more and more people want to go after fewer and fewer coins, while technology combined with free market competition creates innovation. (faster and faster machines, which in turn make the coins even more scarcer and scarcer... which is key for value creation in the first place.)

If we only had masternodes... we would basically take darkcoin out of the most insane innovation cycle we have seen in the last decades.
(If only servers had the innovation that miners have, lol   , but how are they going to have innovation without competition? Just masternode holders sitting on their piles of coins is not something that is very "competitive")

So, the key concepts to not forget are: competition creates innovation which in turn creates scarcity (value). Ergo mining.

[semajjames]

I don't think miners deserve 80% of the block reward, I don't think their contribution is worth 4X that of Masternodes. Not even close.

Fuck that !  I not sure you got any idea how much time, effort and hard cash DRK miners go through keeping up with and optimising mining software, buying and optimizing GPU's, buying power supplies, mobo's, extraction fans and RAM finding CPU's hardrives  paying power bill's just so we get to PAY these bills, PAY 20% to idle node owners and in the end get a few DRK to invest for possible  gain OR loss.

we do it couse we like mining and we like the coin but like being told by someone as your self in the community we don't deserve the coin we get to keep ,,

 Na mate you need to get real

well that's my bit there's plenty more but i don't want to fuck the thread up arguing with that crap any more.

Uh huh, mining is such hard work.  

I've mined DRK from 15 minutes after I heard about it, and I still mine it. By all means go mine something else, I'll keep mining DRK. What have you done with all that DRK you have been mining? Sold it for BTC/fiat probably. Otherwise you'd be running a Masternode, eh?

Justify your usefulness please, or go away.

Get lost i'v been mining Dark for about 6 months and what has not been cashed in to pay mining bills is still in my nice new DRK wallet you presumptuous   CAPITOL  ****

[r-ando]

The ideas I see amount to forming a private cartel for the dozen or so vocal members of the community, fundamentally changing the way a coin works to the detriment of the general user and betraying the philosophical principals of crypto in general.

And I see a bunch of people, who should be ashamed of themselves, agreeing with it.

I agree with you.
Proof of Work is not just waste of energy, it is also the Proof that transactions really happened.
I always assumed that Darkcoin was going to make the public ledger into an anonymous ledger (not readable by outsiders), but certainly not to make it totally disappear?!?. That would be disastrous.

If we only had masternodes, and no POW, I am not sure that the integrity of who owns which coins can be guaranteed AT ALL.

As I keep saying, you don't need 100GH worth of GPU's to maintain a simple blockchain with a few transactions per minute, or even a few thousand.

Nobody is talking about doing away with the blockchain, we're debating (or at least I am ) whether the contribution of miners is really worth 4X more than the contribution of Masternodes to Darkcoin. I don't think it is.

Darkcoins come into existence thru mining. And only thru mining. The miners share a few of their new found coins with the masternodes.
Mining is not only about maintaining the blockchain.
Even if there are no transactions for days, it doesn't matter. If there are NO transactions for days, then THAT'S the state of blockchain that has to be integrated and shared for everybody to accept.
The amount of transactions (low or high or whatever) has nothing to do with the validity of mining. It just is what is.  

We have Petahashes of POW miners mining for Bitcoin because more and more people want to go after fewer and fewer coins, while technology combined with free market competition creates innovation.
If we only had masternodes... we would basically take darkcoin out of the most insane innovation cycle we have seen in the last decades.

I agree, thats why I think mining should stay but I also agree with Evan's idea of reducing its relative share with time, as he explained the relative reduction will decrease over time so mining wouldn't actually disappear, it would simply be reduced (evolution of mining?) eventually it will probably become more of responsibility (thinking along the lines of corporate social responsibility…)  

quote from darkcoin talk:
''if one day all coins are in masternodes, well then people can trade shares of masternodes…. like people trade company shares today. And then all of a sudden each coin is fundamentally backed. Additionally, if the companies that run the masternodes backed themselves up with precious metals then you have a double backing of valuation. After all, the reason people started using paper money was because of the inconvenience of carrying precious metals around… That would fundamentally solve the issue for good imo
If mining stays in the equation it would make sense for these decentralised masternode pool companies to also do mining.''

''After all, the tendency to centralisation of mining by corporate interests has been demonstrated by bitcoin, eventually the same thing will probably happen with DRK when better and better asics (with the constant and rising investment costs associated) are developed. This way the problem of centralization of mining could also be countered, slowly reducing its importance with time. Basically, the company hosting the masternodes would generate revenue which would allow it to keep mining, kind of like a functional corporate social responsibility demonstration? hahaha, now that would be something to see, companies being responsible, but it would make sense and create a sustainable shareholders-stakeholder relationship synergy… if i'm thinking this through properly''

[georgem]

quote from darkcoin talk:
''if one day all coins are in masternodes, well then people can trade shares of masternodes…. "

Can you post the link to the thread please?

[r-ando]

quote from darkcoin talk:
''if one day all coins are in masternodes, well then people can trade shares of masternodes…. "

Can you post the link to the thread please?

Of course, here it is:

https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-update-oct-1-2014.2561/

[Ignition75]

The more master-nodes we have in existence the better it will be for miners, prices will be higher...

The more miners we have in existence the better it will be for master-nodes, difficulty will be up and in general, prices go up with difficulty...

Right now, miners are pulling the short straw because of power bills, it's a lot more expensive to run mining rigs than it is to run master-nodes...

I personally think increasing the master-node reward will be a good thing for miners...

[georgem]

The more master-nodes we have in existence the better it will be for miners, prices will be higher...

The more miners we have in existence the better it will be for master-nodes, difficulty will be up and in general, prices go up with difficulty...

Right now, miners are pulling the short straw because of power bills, it's a lot more expensive to run mining rigs than it is to run master-nodes...

I personally think increasing the master-node reward will be a good thing for miners...

More and more I think that both master-node reward and number of coins needed to run a masternode should be something that is not set by an authority (evan) but something that is inherently calculated by the protocol itself, based on many different parameters like difficulty, total amount of coins, etc...

Maybe those two things (master-node reward and number of coins needed to run a masternode) need to fluctuate over time?

[semajjames]

My proposal is that we have Masternodes running p2pool nodes and miners mine on the Masternode network and nowhere else. Solves the 51% threat, eliminates the need for 'enforcing' MN service fees, and ensures decentralisation. 50/50 split between MNs and miners, with miners who leave a balance on the MNP2pool earning a pro-rata cut of the MN reward as well, and meaning that as long as the total MNP2pool node balance is >1000DRK, the MN op can take out some or all of his initial 1000DRK and set up further MNs...  

Sounds like a very centralised banking machine much like HSB paying shit low interest rates.

[beitris.dwlul]

 always loved DRK idea

[daddeo]

I agree. Mining is a huge benefit. I hope my idea a few pages back isn't what is fueling this discussion. Without mining, most of us wouldn't be vested in crypto. My proposal was simply an idea to merge the importance of mining via p2pool and creating another valuable service which the masternodes could handle. I believe most of us can agree that mining via p2pool is beneficial and if that service can be incorporated into the masternode service, and both are incentivized fairly, then it's a win win scenario. Just trying to think outside the box a little. We're all in this together so let's not berate and belittle each other. We're on the same team.

[georgem]

That's actually a pretty good idea but there would come a day when MN's start dropping like flys, inversely affecting the system as a whole.

If you look at the DGW - in MN protocol.... as you describe
// DIFF goes down - rewards goes up - number of coin to make a MN goes down
// DIFF goes up - rewards goes down - number of coin to make a MN goes up

The would require MN owners to maintain a reserve of DRK
also - the current 1000DRK to OWN a MN, as Evan has already said - cannot be changed....

So what you ask, cannot be done......


..... Well that was fun - lol - NEXT !!!!

Just use mathematics then. If there is an inverse effect at some point, create a higher degree formula that counteracts the effect.  
If someone can do that, it's the DGW creator himself.

Also, how is "MN owners maintinaing a reserve of DRK" a bad thing?
I'd love to make the MN owners sweat a little from time to time, they are far too comfortable where they are now... they are even starting expressing some very DECADENT ideas, LMAO!!!

[thelonecrouton]

Darkcoins come into existence thru mining. And only thru mining.

Evan Duffield and team, and the whole Masternode concept had nothing to do with it? Just miners?

The miners share a few of their new found coins with the masternodes.
Mining is not only about maintaining the blockchain.
Even if there are no transactions for days, it doesn't matter. If there are NO transactions for days, then THAT'S the state of blockchain that has to be integrated and shared for everybody to accept.

A single old Celeron can do all that.

The amount of transactions (low or high or whatever) has nothing to do with the validity of mining. It just is what is.  

What does that even mean?

We have Petahashes of POW miners mining for Bitcoin because more and more people want to go after fewer and fewer coins, while technology combined with free market competition creates innovation. (faster and faster machines, which in turn make the coins even more scarcer and scarcer... which is key for value creation in the first place.)

Fulfilling a market need is the key to value, not throwing money at GPU manufacturers.

If we only had masternodes... we would basically take darkcoin out of the most insane innovation cycle we have seen in the last decades.
(If only servers had the innovation that miners have, lol   , but how are they going to have innovation without competition? Just masternode holders sitting on their piles of coins is not something that is very "competitive")

So, the key concepts to not forget are: competition creates innovation which in turn creates scarcity (value). Ergo mining.

I'm not actually proposing doing away with miners, but please explain to me what great innovations have come about through chasing pointless hashpower? The Darkcoin developers provide innovation, a bunch of people running up electricity bills in the hope of a quick buck do not.

[kadrek]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=795749

The first clone?

[thelonecrouton]

I don't think miners deserve 80% of the block reward, I don't think their contribution is worth 4X that of Masternodes. Not even close.

Fuck that !  I not sure you got any idea how much time, effort and hard cash DRK miners go through keeping up with and optimising mining software, buying and optimizing GPU's, buying power supplies, mobo's, extraction fans and RAM finding CPU's hardrives  paying power bill's just so we get to PAY these bills, PAY 20% to idle node owners and in the end get a few DRK to invest for possible  gain OR loss.

we do it couse we like mining and we like the coin but like being told by someone as your self in the community we don't deserve the coin we get to keep ,,

 Na mate you need to get real

well that's my bit there's plenty more but i don't want to fuck the thread up arguing with that crap any more.

Uh huh, mining is such hard work.  

I've mined DRK from 15 minutes after I heard about it, and I still mine it. By all means go mine something else, I'll keep mining DRK. What have you done with all that DRK you have been mining? Sold it for BTC/fiat probably. Otherwise you'd be running a Masternode, eh?

Justify your usefulness please, or go away.

Get lost i'v been mining Dark for about 6 months and what has not been cashed in to pay mining bills is still in my nice new DRK wallet you presumptuous   CAPITOL  ****

Are you going to try and convince me that miners deserve 4X the block reward of Masternodes or just call me asterisks?

[georgem]

Darkcoins come into existence thru mining. And only thru mining.

Evan Duffield and team, and the whole Masternode concept had nothing to do with it? Just miners?

Everybody you mentioned here had to mine to get to some darkcoins, don't you agree? What do you even say here? Did they just push a button?

The miners share a few of their new found coins with the masternodes.
Mining is not only about maintaining the blockchain.
Even if there are no transactions for days, it doesn't matter. If there are NO transactions for days, then THAT'S the state of blockchain that has to be integrated and shared for everybody to accept.

A single old Celeron can do all that.

You are dellusional.

The amount of transactions (low or high or whatever) has nothing to do with the validity of mining. It just is what is.  

What does that even mean?

Even if we have no transactions for a while, the integrity of the blockchain would still need to be maintained.
You made it sound like it matters how many transactions go thru when in fact the amount of transactions is completely irrelevant to the integrity of the blockchain.
As I said, if there were for some reason NO transactions for a period of time, then this state of blockchain would still need to be checked and shared by everybody in the network.