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Author Topic: Why do people in USA fear socialism so much?  (Read 32313 times)
bb113
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December 07, 2011, 12:08:34 PM
 #221

Hasn't anyone in this thread dealt with the US federal government? It takes 20 people and 4 months to order a computer. The wall of bureaucracy can be nearly impenetrable. The system discourages innovation and initiative, while rewarding cronyism and finding loopholes. Our congress doesn't even pass budgets anymore because they are too busy declaring pizza to be a vegetable, etc (its seriously just a game for these for these people). Look at what happened with Social Security. Everyone likes the idea of helping out old, poor folk with their medical bills, but what ended up being created was a huge ponzi scheme. They are constantly, constantly, constantly passing laws that give corporations and law enforcement more power to track you and intrude on your personal space. There are a bunch of creepy old dudes out there who want to know everywhere you go, everyone you talk to, and everything you do. Our government appears to be systematically overthrowing governments in the middle east according to some obscure plan. It is spending hundreds of billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives to do so. That's all without even mentioning central banking, privileged position of having the worlds reserve currency, etc. From my perspective, the thing is out of control, and the people in a position to profit off all this have been doing just that.

Maybe "socialism" works fine in other countries, but not here (not that we aren't already 50% socialist). Not without a major change in Washington culture. Here we should be striving for less centralization, not more. I really do believe if we aren't careful it could end up the dystopian nanny state that forces everyone to be dependent upon it.
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December 07, 2011, 01:32:57 PM
 #222

Hasn't anyone in this thread dealt with the US federal government? It takes 20 people and 4 months to order a computer. The wall of bureaucracy can be nearly impenetrable. The system discourages innovation and initiative, while rewarding cronyism and finding loopholes. Our congress doesn't even pass budgets anymore because they are too busy declaring pizza to be a vegetable, etc (its seriously just a game for these for these people). Look at what happened with Social Security. Everyone likes the idea of helping out old, poor folk with their medical bills, but what ended up being created was a huge ponzi scheme. They are constantly, constantly, constantly passing laws that give corporations and law enforcement more power to track you and intrude on your personal space. There are a bunch of creepy old dudes out there who want to know everywhere you go, everyone you talk to, and everything you do. Our government appears to be systematically overthrowing governments in the middle east according to some obscure plan. It is spending hundreds of billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives to do so. That's all without even mentioning central banking, privileged position of having the worlds reserve currency, etc. From my perspective, the thing is out of control, and the people in a position to profit off all this have been doing just that.

Maybe "socialism" works fine in other countries, but not here (not that we aren't already 50% socialist). Not without a major change in Washington culture. Here we should be striving for less centralization, not more. I really do believe if we aren't careful it could end up the dystopian nanny state that forces everyone to be dependent upon it.

Again, not a problem with socialism but with governance. While I do empathize with you, I think you should put the blame where it belongs. Germany is pretty socialist, and they're efficient. Not saying that they couldn't be better, or that they wouldn't be equally efficient under capitalism.
And you're currently not a socialistic country by world standards, and you're in this mess right now. Perhaps it's the capitalistic way of thinking that created it?
Perhaps you need more socialism? Take more money from the wealthy and put it to work for the poor? Instead of taking money from everybody and give to the rich.

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December 07, 2011, 06:36:39 PM
 #223

Remove all the justifications and excuses, and what you are left with is taking what some have worked hard all their lives for, at the point of a gun, by force, and giving part of it to someone else, while a 3rd party siphons most of it off the top for their own use. All supposedly for the greater good of humanity.

Its saying your rights are irrelevent, because in reality, you have no rights.

Its me coming to your home and taking what you have earned at the point of a gun, through threat of force, because some 3rd party said its legal on a piece of paper someone else signed.

Its saying you have no rights... just benefits and privilages other people regulate with a force greater than your own.

Its saying you do not have the right to do anything you want so long as you cause no loss or hurt anyone.

Its saying you have to do what more powerful people tell you to do, when they tell you to do it, only in the manner they allow you to do it in, while those people do whatever they want, whenever they want, in any way they wish to do it in, because they are more powerful.

Of course, you are told its all for the greater good (of the collective).

Its for your own good because you can not be trusted. Only they can be trusted.

right ?

Now, I am not the brightest crayon in the box, but this reminds me of something ... Yea, its called slavery... serfdom. Get out of line and Massa's overseer's cracks the whip, cuts off your foot, puts you in stocks, hangs you on a wall in chains, puts you in a cage, steals everything you have, rapes your women and daughters, executes you for hearesy, or just murders you in the name of the king, the pharoh, or ruler.

... all for the greater good of the collective ?

... or for the greater good of the real powers in the world behind it all ?

You know, conspiracy is illegal. Are the legislators crazy too since its obvious conspiracies dont exist ... right ?

Is it safe to say that extremely rich, ambitious, righteous, and self-serving people might have a plan and lists they are executing ?

If what they are doing is illegal, wouldnt it behoove them to lobby, bribe, indoctrinate, and manipulate for legislation changes making their illegal wants and desires, legal ?

Does legal equal lawful ?

Does illegal equal unlawful ?

Does the government derive their power and right to rule form the consent of the governed ?

If not, where do they get that power and right ?? By pure force ?

If so, do the people not hold the supreme authority, ability, and responsibility to remove it when its being abused ??

"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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December 07, 2011, 07:21:20 PM
 #224

Remove all the justifications and excuses, and what you are left with is taking what some have worked hard all their lives for, at the point of a gun, by force, and giving part of it to someone else, while a 3rd party siphons most of it off the top for their own use. All supposedly for the greater good of humanity.

Its saying your rights are irrelevent, because in reality, you have no rights.

Its me coming to your home and taking what you have earned at the point of a gun, through threat of force, because some 3rd party said its legal on a piece of paper someone else signed.

Its saying you have no rights... just benefits and privilages other people regulate with a force greater than your own.

Its saying you do not have the right to do anything you want so long as you cause no loss or hurt anyone.

Its saying you have to do what more powerful people tell you to do, when they tell you to do it, only in the manner they allow you to do it in, while those people do whatever they want, whenever they want, in any way they wish to do it in, because they are more powerful.

Of course, you are told its all for the greater good (of the collective).

Its for your own good because you can not be trusted. Only they can be trusted.

right ?

Now, I am not the brightest crayon in the box, but this reminds me of something ... Yea, its called slavery... serfdom. Get out of line and Massa's overseer's cracks the whip, cuts off your foot, puts you in stocks, hangs you on a wall in chains, puts you in a cage, steals everything you have, rapes your women and daughters, executes you for hearesy, or just murders you in the name of the king, the pharoh, or ruler.

... all for the greater good of the collective ?

... or for the greater good of the real powers in the world behind it all ?

You know, conspiracy is illegal. Are the legislators crazy too since its obvious conspiracies dont exist ... right ?

Is it safe to say that extremely rich, ambitious, righteous, and self-serving people might have a plan and lists they are executing ?

If what they are doing is illegal, wouldnt it behoove them to lobby, bribe, indoctrinate, and manipulate for legislation changes making their illegal wants and desires, legal ?

Does legal equal lawful ?

Does illegal equal unlawful ?

Does the government derive their power and right to rule form the consent of the governed ?

If not, where do they get that power and right ?? By pure force ?

If so, do the people not hold the supreme authority, ability, and responsibility to remove it when its being abused ??
dude. you essencially have no rights, they are also written down on paper and signed by someone else.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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December 07, 2011, 07:50:48 PM
 #225

Hasn't anyone in this thread dealt with the US federal government? It takes 20 people and 4 months to order a computer. The wall of bureaucracy can be nearly impenetrable. The system discourages innovation and initiative, while rewarding cronyism and finding loopholes. Our congress doesn't even pass budgets anymore because they are too busy declaring pizza to be a vegetable, etc (its seriously just a game for these for these people). Look at what happened with Social Security. Everyone likes the idea of helping out old, poor folk with their medical bills, but what ended up being created was a huge ponzi scheme. They are constantly, constantly, constantly passing laws that give corporations and law enforcement more power to track you and intrude on your personal space. There are a bunch of creepy old dudes out there who want to know everywhere you go, everyone you talk to, and everything you do. Our government appears to be systematically overthrowing governments in the middle east according to some obscure plan. It is spending hundreds of billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives to do so. That's all without even mentioning central banking, privileged position of having the worlds reserve currency, etc. From my perspective, the thing is out of control, and the people in a position to profit off all this have been doing just that.

Maybe "socialism" works fine in other countries, but not here (not that we aren't already 50% socialist). Not without a major change in Washington culture. Here we should be striving for less centralization, not more. I really do believe if we aren't careful it could end up the dystopian nanny state that forces everyone to be dependent upon it.

Again, not a problem with socialism but with governance. While I do empathize with you, I think you should put the blame where it belongs. Germany is pretty socialist, and they're efficient. Not saying that they couldn't be better, or that they wouldn't be equally efficient under capitalism.
And you're currently not a socialistic country by world standards, and you're in this mess right now. Perhaps it's the capitalistic way of thinking that created it?
Perhaps you need more socialism? Take more money from the wealthy and put it to work for the poor? Instead of taking money from everybody and give to the rich.


I am saying (I believe) that, in the US, taking money from the wealthy and giving it to the poor results in more money in the hands of the wealthy in the long run, meanwhile stifling innovation and work ethic. Rather than the clever, cut throat businessmen with the power, you get the clever, cut throat smoothtalkers and liars with the power.

If you believe socialism to be superior in theory. Ok. I am basically saying that even if that is the case, you still should be worried about it being implemented in a perverse way in the US. Someone earlier in the thread was arguing that anarcho-capitalisists never seem to think pragmatically enough about how things will actually work out. I am saying the same thing here with regards to dealing with the US government's current culture of insane amounts of bureaucracy, corporatism and corruption.

Just passing a few laws never seems to work out in the way intended. So what kind of transition to this newer, less corrupt, more efficient government do you envision?
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December 07, 2011, 08:04:55 PM
 #226

dude. you essencially have no rights, they are also written down on paper and signed by someone else.

Incorrect. We have birth rights, Creator-endowed rights. God-given rights, however you wish to label them and they are not written down, although the important ones have been codified and ratified "officially" and affirmed "on paper".

We are born unto the land and have no constraints upon us so long as we hurt no one else. We can otherwise do whatever we want. Nothing connects us with any "authority" other than people who force their will upon us at the point of a gun or though threat of force.

Our problem is that we obey them through our blind obedience ... the real foundation of misplaced power ... the cumulative force of a cowardly and compliant citizenry.

Laws, orders, and commands are inconsequential if completely ignored, or if we all stand up and say NO - I SHALL NOT OBEY.

Separated from the citizens that have been trained to obey them, even the most oppressive and tyrannical government officials are no more dangerous than a petty thief, so they are not the ones I fear...

I fear the indoctrinated, manipulated, and conditioned masses who would assault, sieze, imprison, or murder me in a heartbeat if the right "order" is given from those they believe hold authority over them. I fear the herded sheeple who believe that "written law" is to be followed at all costs and "authority" figures are to be obeyed blindly and at all costs ... even at the expense of self-evident rights, liberty, and morals and values.

Throughout history, citizens of the world have been indoctrinated, conditioned, and manipulated into following others instead of leading themselves and their families, and standing up for themselves and their families and communities when needed.

Throughout history, no oppressive and tyrannical leader would have succeeded without compliance of and by the citizens, and by citizens I mean every person in their control structure ... you, me, our families, and neighbors, cops, district attorneys, attorney generals, judges, and even the legislature ... all being pressured to comply and obey.

The problem is not the ones who think they have authority over us. The problem is us obeying them when we are only governed only through CONSENT of the governed.

Its time we remove that consent for a total system reset.

We are the only change we need.

We are the only ones that can make it happen.


"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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December 07, 2011, 08:11:10 PM
 #227

dude. you essencially have no rights, they are also written down on paper and signed by someone else.

Incorrect. We have birth rights, Creator-endowed rights. God-given rights, [...]
you lost me there, and im LAMFAO

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December 07, 2011, 08:15:19 PM
 #228

dude. you essencially have no rights, they are also written down on paper and signed by someone else.

Incorrect. We have birth rights, Creator-endowed rights. God-given rights, [...]
you lost me there, and im LAMFAO


however you wish to label them

if there is something you do not comprehend about that comment, please post your question and I would he happy to answer it.

"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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December 07, 2011, 08:19:00 PM
 #229

dude. you essencially have no rights, they are also written down on paper and signed by someone else.

Incorrect. We have birth rights, Creator-endowed rights. God-given rights, [...]
you lost me there, and im LAMFAO
So our rights and value only come from the state? They cannot be endowed by the individual herself nor what she holds as her master?

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December 07, 2011, 08:20:58 PM
 #230

we have no rights, only force. and people with the bigger guns(metaphor, could be resources, or other stuff) have more force, they can take you life if they want too. but they often don't, because the lots of afraid-of-getting-killed-people with alot of small guns would come after them, and kill them.

anything else is just mutual agreements enforced by thread of force. Social constructions, my friend.
if the majority of the force(why im i thinking starwars now?) decides socialism, then socialism it is.
and you can do shit about that, with your sense of rights that you don't have(because The Force decides so).

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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December 07, 2011, 08:23:59 PM
 #231

I don't understand, maybe I'm just too young with whole cold-war mentality born just around collapse. Sure communism didn't work out very well.

But, I do prefer some socialism to pure capitalism. So I don't realy get this whole fear of it in USA, it can't be all bad or is it? Can someone explain it to me?

Isn't fear... Is that none of this tries have provided a decent human life for everybody on the planet.

Socialism, fascism, communism, capitalism are part of a social evolution... They come and go... None of this works nicely for mankind.

We need a new and better approach, a new culture.

I prefer something called a Resource-Based Economy.

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December 07, 2011, 08:32:12 PM
 #232

we have no rights, only force. and people with the bigger guns(metaphor, could be resources, or other stuff) have more force, they can take you life if they want too. but they often don't, because the lots of afraid-of-getting-killed-people with alot of small guns would come after them, and kill them.

anything else is just mutual agreements enforced by thread of force. Social constructions, my friend.
if the majority of the force(why im i thinking starwars now?) decides socialism, then socialism it is.
and you can do shit about that, with your sense of rights that you don't have(because The Force decides so).

The only rights you have are the ones you can protect, through as much force as necessary to stop any infringement thats ocurring. This is where communities come in. We all need to come together as fellow humans. 7 billion citizens against a few thousand who wish to control us. No contest. No weaponry is powerful enough to stop the level of force 7 billion people possess. Its ok to be scared and fearful. Its part of the human condition. Cowardice is a different story. If you stand up for nothing, you will fall for anything. Its time to stand up. We have the power. We have our rights. We have the force. You are to scared and conditioned to realize it. If I had to die today to make this world better for my kids, I would do it in a heartbeat. Would I be scared?? Absolutely. Would I be a coward and say, "screw it- let my kids deal with it". Never, not on your life.


"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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December 07, 2011, 08:38:22 PM
 #233

we have no rights, only force. and people with the bigger guns(metaphor, could be resources, or other stuff) have more force, they can take you life if they want too. but they often don't, because the lots of afraid-of-getting-killed-people with alot of small guns would come after them, and kill them.

anything else is just mutual agreements enforced by thread of force. Social constructions, my friend.
if the majority of the force(why im i thinking starwars now?) decides socialism, then socialism it is.
and you can do shit about that, with your sense of rights that you don't have(because The Force decides so).

The only rights you have are the ones you can protect, through as much force as necessary to stop any infringement thats ocurring. This is where communities come in. We all need to come together as fellow humans. 7 billion citizens against a few thousand who wish to control us. No contest. No weaponry is powerful enough to stop the level of force 7 billion people possess. Its ok to be scared and fearful. Its part of the human condition. Cowardice is a different story. If you stand up for nothing, you will fall for anything. Its time to stand up. We have the power. We have our rights. We have the force. You are to scared and consitioned to realize it. If I had to die today to make this world better for my kids, I would do it in a heartbeat. Would I be scared?? Absolutely. Would I be a coward and says, "screw it- let my kids deal with it". Never, not on your life.
have you ever speculated about if you was a part of the "few thousand"? i think that we agree on many points, but you have an inability to see how socialism would work. Socialism DOES NOT requiter a central authority. People often don't want freedom, but security.

if you think that socialism needs a central point of power. you are no better then all the people who thinks money MUST BE printed by the state/FED/banks/some-sort-of-authority.

(but im all for the freedom)

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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December 07, 2011, 08:53:17 PM
 #234

we have no rights, only force. and people with the bigger guns(metaphor, could be resources, or other stuff) have more force, they can take you life if they want too. but they often don't, because the lots of afraid-of-getting-killed-people with alot of small guns would come after them, and kill them.

anything else is just mutual agreements enforced by thread of force. Social constructions, my friend.
if the majority of the force(why im i thinking starwars now?) decides socialism, then socialism it is.
and you can do shit about that, with your sense of rights that you don't have(because The Force decides so).

The only rights you have are the ones you can protect, through as much force as necessary to stop any infringement thats ocurring. This is where communities come in. We all need to come together as fellow humans. 7 billion citizens against a few thousand who wish to control us. No contest. No weaponry is powerful enough to stop the level of force 7 billion people possess. Its ok to be scared and fearful. Its part of the human condition. Cowardice is a different story. If you stand up for nothing, you will fall for anything. Its time to stand up. We have the power. We have our rights. We have the force. You are to scared and consitioned to realize it. If I had to die today to make this world better for my kids, I would do it in a heartbeat. Would I be scared?? Absolutely. Would I be a coward and says, "screw it- let my kids deal with it". Never, not on your life.
have you ever speculated about if you was a part of the "few thousand"? i think that we agree on many points, but you have an inability to see how socialism would work. Socialism DOES NOT requiter a central authority. People often don't want freedom, but security.

if you think that socialism needs a central point of power. you are no better then all the people who thinks money MUST BE printed by the state/FED/banks/some-sort-of-authority.

(but im all for the freedom)

I would never be a part of any system of control over other people, other than my children, and only until such time as they decided to strike out on their own or had the intellect and experience to make rational and reasonable decisions for themselves.

I am not sure you know what socialism truly is...

If you mean classic socialism, how do you think the means of production, distribution, and exchange can be owned or regulated without some central authority ??

Even if you take it to the Marxist extreme of a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism, how do you think it can be done without a central authority ??

and if you take it to its most current version of an RBE-type existance where everyone throws their shit in a huge pile and shares, how will you get them to throw their shit into that pile without direct force ?? And who will be doing it if not a government or UN-like central authority making mandates and enforcing them ??

Do you realize that under classic common law where there were no government and statutes, communities worked together in harmony and agreement, while retaining ALL of their birth rights, producing, distributing, and exchanging as they saw fit anmd as needed ??

It was how the world survived before government and politics. Their politics was surviving by working together.

They also took care of criminals with an eye for an eye, and unsuprisingly there was little crime with such penalties.


"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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December 07, 2011, 08:58:50 PM
 #235

According to Kokjo's vague definition, most of us are socialists. How lovely.

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December 07, 2011, 09:06:57 PM
 #236

According to Kokjo's vague definition, most of us are socialists. How lovely.

the sad state of affairs is that he is partially right.

we just dont know that we are socialists.

its a central authority taking all your rights and wealth from you and giving you privilages and benefits you need to apply for, that they can restrict and regulate at their whim, while skimming the majority of the wealth and property anbd distributing amongst themselves for their administrative "work". Our current socialist government only steals from us and creates paperwork and jobs with bloated salaries and benefits. It benefits our oppressors... not us.

"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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December 07, 2011, 09:07:31 PM
 #237

Quote
You obviously have no idea what socialism truly is.
you too Tongue

Quote
If you mean classic socialism, how do you think the means of production, distribution, and exchange can be owned or regulated without some central authority ??
it does not need to be "owned or regulated".

Quote
Even if you take it to the Marxist extreme of a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism, how do you think it can be done without a central authority ??
simple, people decides to do so.

Quote
and if you take it to its most current version of an RBE-type existance where everyone throws their shit in a huge pile and shares, how will you get them to throw their shit into that pile without direct force ?? And who will be doing it if not a government or UN-like central authority making mandates and enforcing them ??
either anyone realizes that its a good idea to throw their shit into the pile. or would getting forced by people how thinks so(who does not have a central authority)

Quote
Do you realize that under classic common law where there were no government and statutes, communities worked together in harmony and agreement, while retaining ALL of their birth rights, producing, distributing, and exchanging as they saw fit anmd as needed ??
i have absolutly no idea about what "classic common law" is, so i can not argue this point. BUT you are still talking about rights, which i already have clarified for you that they are no more then an illusion.
 
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It was how the world survived before government and politics. Their politics was surviving by working together.

They also took care of criminals with an eye for an eye, and unsuprisingly there was little crime with such penalties.
have you considered that these people could be to some use for the society? and do you even have any proof of your claim of "little crimewith such penalties"?


your arguments seems flawed...

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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December 07, 2011, 09:07:39 PM
 #238

we have no rights, only force. and people with the bigger guns(metaphor, could be resources, or other stuff) have more force, they can take you life if they want too. but they often don't, because the lots of afraid-of-getting-killed-people with alot of small guns would come after them, and kill them.

anything else is just mutual agreements enforced by thread of force. Social constructions, my friend.
if the majority of the force(why im i thinking starwars now?) decides socialism, then socialism it is.
and you can do shit about that, with your sense of rights that you don't have(because The Force decides so).

The only rights you have are the ones you can protect, through as much force as necessary to stop any infringement thats ocurring. This is where communities come in. We all need to come together as fellow humans. 7 billion citizens against a few thousand who wish to control us. No contest. No weaponry is powerful enough to stop the level of force 7 billion people possess. Its ok to be scared and fearful. Its part of the human condition. Cowardice is a different story. If you stand up for nothing, you will fall for anything. Its time to stand up. We have the power. We have our rights. We have the force. You are to scared and consitioned to realize it. If I had to die today to make this world better for my kids, I would do it in a heartbeat. Would I be scared?? Absolutely. Would I be a coward and says, "screw it- let my kids deal with it". Never, not on your life.
have you ever speculated about if you was a part of the "few thousand"? i think that we agree on many points, but you have an inability to see how socialism would work. Socialism DOES NOT requiter a central authority. People often don't want freedom, but security.

if you think that socialism needs a central point of power. you are no better then all the people who thinks money MUST BE printed by the state/FED/banks/some-sort-of-authority.

(but im all for the freedom)

kokjo, please explain how an economy which deprives people of the incentive to work or innovate can possibly succeed.  

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December 07, 2011, 09:08:40 PM
 #239

According to Kokjo's vague definition, most of us are socialists. How lovely.

What definition? I didn't even see one.

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December 07, 2011, 09:10:46 PM
 #240

According to Kokjo's vague definition, most of us are socialists. How lovely.

What definition? I didn't even see one.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=42298.msg643320#msg643320

@HarveyAlpha (https://twitter.com/#!/HarveyAlpha) | It would be foolish to assert that there is no power above mine. Only the attitude that I take toward it will be quite another than that of the religious age: I shall be the enemy of every higher power.
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