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Author Topic: Why do people in USA fear socialism so much?  (Read 32356 times)
Ekaros
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September 08, 2011, 05:38:44 PM
 #1

I don't understand, maybe I'm just too young with whole cold-war mentality born just around collapse. Sure communism didn't work out very well.

But, I do prefer some socialism to pure capitalism. So I don't realy get this whole fear of it in USA, it can't be all bad or is it? Can someone explain it to me?

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September 08, 2011, 05:42:21 PM
 #2

Socialism destroys any natural incentive that comes from human desire and puts it in the hands of elected bureaucrats that are incapable of true failure. They get paid no matter how well their mandates work and can only be fired every term or so. That's assuming they are held accountable. There's no competition to do that.

In conclusion, due to little true accountability and the inability to fail, socialist services are inherently inferior in terms of product output and the vast amount of inefficiency required to generate said product.
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September 08, 2011, 05:42:33 PM
 #3

I don't understand, maybe I'm just too young with whole cold-war mentality born just around collapse. Sure communism didn't work out very well.

But, I do prefer some socialism to pure capitalism. So I don't realy get this whole fear of it in USA, it can't be all bad or is it? Can someone explain it to me?

Two things: The Bible belt and the ingrained sense that there's still a frontier out there.
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September 08, 2011, 05:44:15 PM
 #4

Socialism destroys any natural incentive that comes from human desire and puts it in the hands of elected bureaucrats that are incapable of true failure. They get paid no matter how well their mandates work and can only be fired every term or so. That's assuming they are held accountable. There's no competition to do that.

In conclusion, due to little true accountability and the inability to fail, socialist services are inherently inferior in terms of product output and the vast amount of inefficiency required to generate said product.

That is a blanket statement against socialism which does nothing to address why Americans vs. some other nations have the feelings they do about socialism.
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September 08, 2011, 05:46:41 PM
 #5

Socialism destroys any natural incentive that comes from human desire and puts it in the hands of elected bureaucrats that are incapable of true failure. They get paid no matter how well their mandates work and can only be fired every term or so. That's assuming they are held accountable. There's no competition to do that.

In conclusion, due to little true accountability and the inability to fail, socialist services are inherently inferior in terms of product output and the vast amount of inefficiency required to generate said product.

That is a blanket statement against socialism which does nothing to address why Americans vs. some other nation has the feelings it does about socialism.
It's a very utilitarian statement that addresses the reasons as to why I am an American that doesn't like socialism. It's very relevant and many Americans share my same view.
Ekaros
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September 08, 2011, 05:47:27 PM
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Socialism destroys any natural incentive that comes from human desire and puts it in the hands of elected bureaucrats that are incapable of true failure. They get paid no matter how well their mandates work and can only be fired every term or so. That's assuming they are held accountable. There's no competition to do that.

In conclusion, due to little true accountability and the inability to fail, socialist services are inherently inferior in terms of product output and the vast amount of inefficiency required to generate said product.

That is a blanket statement against socialism which does nothing to address why Americans vs. some other nations have the feelings they do about socialism.

Other question is where does this all come from. The hate too?

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September 08, 2011, 05:50:16 PM
 #7

Socialism destroys any natural incentive that comes from human desire and puts it in the hands of elected bureaucrats that are incapable of true failure. They get paid no matter how well their mandates work and can only be fired every term or so. That's assuming they are held accountable. There's no competition to do that.

In conclusion, due to little true accountability and the inability to fail, socialist services are inherently inferior in terms of product output and the vast amount of inefficiency required to generate said product.

That is a blanket statement against socialism which does nothing to address why Americans vs. some other nations have the feelings they do about socialism.

Other question is where does this all come from. The hate too?
My hate comes from it not working and infringing on the right to myself and the fruits of my labor.
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September 08, 2011, 05:51:05 PM
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In conclusion, due to little true accountability and the inability to fail, socialist services are inherently inferior in terms of product output and the vast amount of inefficiency required to generate said product.

Product output? Be more specific. Do you mean GDP?
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September 08, 2011, 05:51:57 PM
 #9

In conclusion, due to little true accountability and the inability to fail, socialist services are inherently inferior in terms of product output and the vast amount of inefficiency required to generate said product.

Product output? Be more specific. Do you mean GDP?
Product = The service and/or good delivered (aka value) to meet an individual desire.
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September 08, 2011, 05:52:32 PM
 #10

My hate comes from it not working and infringing on the right to myself and the fruits of my labor.

I'd be happy to discuss this with you. By fruits of your labor, what are the input components to allow you to engage in production?
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September 08, 2011, 05:52:38 PM
 #11

I don't understand, maybe I'm just too young with whole cold-war mentality born just around collapse. Sure communism didn't work out very well.

But, I do prefer some socialism to pure capitalism. So I don't realy get this whole fear of it in USA, it can't be all bad or is it? Can someone explain it to me?
It's not a fear - it's a reality.  If people get less benefit from working, they will be less likely to work.  Less work means a less productive country and more freeloaders.

Just look at google.  If I start typing in the words "If I quit", the words that follow for the top 3 of 5 auto-entries are along the lines of "will I get unemployment".  People are already trying to game the system by not working, but still collecting a paycheck through unemployment.

In an ideal world (in my mind), people would reap what they sow.  If they don't work, they don't get squat.  If they work hard, and work to ensure they have more than basic labor skills, then they will have plenty to provide for themselves and their family, without having to leech off other people.  If people had heart (which I know some do, myself included), then they would feel inclined to help those who are down on luck and deserve a helping hand, but it should be completely OPTIONAL and VOLUNTARY.  I shouldn't be forced to give my tax dollars to a drug addict who doesn't even have to take a drug test to collect unemployment.
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September 08, 2011, 05:54:53 PM
 #12

My hate comes from it not working and infringing on the right to myself and the fruits of my labor.

I'd be happy to discuss this with you. By fruits of your labor, what are the input components to allow you to engage in production?
Myself. You may believe otherwise. You may believe my parents and the society that raised me are responsible; however, in the end I owe them nothing. The value was inherent. The gave to me voluntary and symbiotically in return of the inherent value of me being raised as an adult human being. They agreed to the terms of the exchange. All the product I have was rightfully earned. I am not in debt and to put me in debt without my consent is a crime unto itself.

I am not a slave.
FirstAscent
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September 08, 2011, 05:57:23 PM
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I'd be happy to discuss this with you. By fruits of your labor, what are the input components to allow you to engage in production?
Myself. You may believe otherwise. You may believe my parents and the society that raised me are responsible; however, in the end I owed them nothing. The value was inherent. The gave to me voluntary and symbiotically in return of the inherent value of me being raised as an adult human being. All the product I have was rightfully earned. I am not in debt and to put me in debt without my consent is a crime unto itself.

I am no slave.

We can assume that the fruits of your labor are nothing more than the production of thought. But in the general case, everyone's fruits arising from their labor, which are not just thoughts, but tangible things, what are the input components? Where do they come from?
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September 08, 2011, 05:59:09 PM
 #14

I'd be happy to discuss this with you. By fruits of your labor, what are the input components to allow you to engage in production?
Myself. You may believe otherwise. You may believe my parents and the society that raised me are responsible; however, in the end I owed them nothing. The value was inherent. The gave to me voluntary and symbiotically in return of the inherent value of me being raised as an adult human being. All the product I have was rightfully earned. I am not in debt and to put me in debt without my consent is a crime unto itself.

I am no slave.

We can assume that the fruits of your labor are nothing more than the production of thought. But in the general case, everyone's fruits arising from their labor, which are not just thoughts, but tangible things, what are the input components? Where do they come from?

The contents of the value I produce are irrelevant. All that is relevant to what I produce is that it can be valued and exchanged for something I desire. If I dig a ditch that was not asked for and fill it up again, it by default is worth nothing. It is not entitled to value by any means. It can be granted value by an individual who has a desire to be met.

The "input components" are our virtues as individuals. They come from our skills that are valued by other individuals. They can be anything valuable enough to meet a desire.

FirstAscent
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September 08, 2011, 06:03:30 PM
 #15

The contents of the value I produce are irrelevant. All that is relevant to what I produce is that it can be valued and exchanged for something I desire. If I dig a ditch that was not asked for and fill it up again, it by default is worth nothing. It is not entitled to value by any means.

They come from our virtues as individuals. They come from skills that are valued by other individuals.

You're dodging the question. You've stated that an important metric to you is production. And unhindered efficient production. And in another thread (The Next One Hundred Years), you've mentioned societal desires. My contention is that unhindered efficient production to satisfy societal desires does not appear (based on past history) to mean efficient use of Earth's finite resources, but rather efficient exploitation of Earth's finite resources.
Anonymous
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September 08, 2011, 06:08:15 PM
 #16

The contents of the value I produce are irrelevant. All that is relevant to what I produce is that it can be valued and exchanged for something I desire. If I dig a ditch that was not asked for and fill it up again, it by default is worth nothing. It is not entitled to value by any means.

They come from our virtues as individuals. They come from skills that are valued by other individuals.

You're dodging the question. You've stated that an important metric to you is production. And unhindered efficient production. And in another thread (The Next One Hundred Years), you've mentioned societal desires. My contention is that unhindered efficient production to satisfy societal desires does not appear (based on past history) to mean efficient use of Earth's finite resources, but rather efficient exploitation of Earth's finite resources.
Thank you for telling me what you want answered. However, before I can give you a sufficient answer, I must explore your perception further.

What happens when a resource becomes scarce enough to the point to where it sufficiently won't meet demand?

Also, thank you for being so well-mannered. : )

Lord F(r)og
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September 08, 2011, 06:10:58 PM
 #17

Capitalism destroys any natural incentive that comes from human desire and puts it in the hands of multinational concerns that are incapable of true failure. Their managers get profit no matter how well their business work and can only be fired every few million$ or so. That's assuming they are held accountable. There's no competition to do that.

In conclusion, due to little true accountability and the inability to fail, capitalist services are inherently inferior in terms of product output and the vast amount of inefficiency required to generate said product.
Anonymous
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September 08, 2011, 06:16:20 PM
 #18

Capitalism destroys any natural incentive that comes from human desire and puts it in the hands of multinational concerns that are incapable of true failure. Their managers get profit no matter how well their business work and can only be fired every few million$ or so. That's assuming they are held accountable. There's no competition to do that.

In conclusion, due to little true accountability and the inability to fail, capitalist services are inherently inferior in terms of product output and the vast amount of inefficiency required to generate said product.

Multinational concerns are only empowered through coercive trade agreements and law. Nice try. Managers can only remain profitable if they are producing goods that sell. Of course, GOVERNMENTS can always bail out failing corporations. That eliminates accountability for sure.
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September 08, 2011, 06:22:19 PM
 #19

What happens when a resource becomes scarce enough to the point to where it sufficiently won't meet demand?

From an economic point of view, the price rises, thus reducing consumption. But the harvesting of said resource destroys countless other resources which are not figured and valued into an economic model and their value may not yet be known. This is happening all around us all the time, and it's a lack of knowledge of the long term effects which wreaks havoc on our future.

Consider this post which I made in another thread which ultimately deals with water quality due to the biodiversity of microorganisms: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40394.msg509546#msg509546

Please take a moment to read it.
Anonymous
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September 08, 2011, 06:27:20 PM
 #20

What happens when a resource becomes scarce enough to the point to where it sufficiently won't meet demand?

From an economic point of view, the price rises, thus reducing consumption. But the harvesting of said resource destroys countless other resources which are not figured and valued into an economic model and their value may not yet be known. This is happening all around us all the time, and it's a lack of knowledge of the long term effects which wreaks havoc on our future.

Consider this post which I made in another thread which ultimately deals with water quality due to the biodiversity of microorganisms: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40394.msg509546#msg509546

Please take a moment to read it.
There are opportunities always missed and gain. Three species on this planet have died every die since its early inception. There will always be destruction while there being discovery. I don't find myself concerned in the least. I consider it another tragedy of the commons.

If there is tremendous value to gain by altering our ways then so it will happen. Otherwise, there is little issue in my perception.
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