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Author Topic: Why do people in USA fear socialism so much?  (Read 32357 times)
exonomica
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May 29, 2013, 04:50:40 AM
 #641

I'll say US with Obama administration is more socialistic then soviet economy.

Either you have never lived in Soviet Union, or you know absolutely nothing about what it's like in US. The two don't even compare.


I'll say, what western society think socialism is (= bolsheviks kommunism) result of banksters mass propaganda machine.


 
wiki:
Socialism is an economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy.

That is - USA have more social ownership (stock market of US citizens, direct government money distributoin during 2008- period, government regulation of finance organisations (aka bailout)) then soviets and more cooperative management then soviets (democracy, transparent management, market demand law that influence corporations).

Still one element have to be done - liquidation of parasitic financial stratum.
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May 29, 2013, 06:41:02 AM
 #642

Altruism (socialism) is not nearly as strong a motivator for productivity as greed (capitalism). The less capitalism in a society there is, the more equality there is, but there is less wealth for the socialists to redistribute.
And if a person wants to act altruistically in a capitalist framework, they certainly can. Witness how many wealthy industrialists turn philanthropist.

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January 13, 2015, 06:25:06 AM
 #643

Cultural upbringing gotten into DNA in the last 400 odd years. But does it matter if a certain nation hates socialism or capitalism (or another ism) for that matter.

A nation or sovereignty is the farthest the human ego can stretch. And we are all designed to be different. We only agree (or are forced) to be alike. Somehere deep down each of us is actually unique.

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January 13, 2015, 09:44:28 AM
 #644

I don't understand, maybe I'm just too young with whole cold-war mentality born just around collapse. Sure communism didn't work out very well.

But, I do prefer some socialism to pure capitalism. So I don't realy get this whole fear of it in USA, it can't be all bad or is it? Can someone explain it to me?
Do you know Fascism?
If you understand what is Fascism, then you will know socialism is another type of Fascism.
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January 13, 2015, 12:57:22 PM
 #645

People in the U.S. don't fear or hate socialism. In fact, they willingly use it all the time. The like it. They thrive on it. Consider a bar situation, or a church meeting, or the gang from work that goes out to the restaurant for lunch. Many popular television sitcoms are socialistic in nature. Sex in the City.

The thing that people hate and fear about socialism is the same thing that people in other countries hate and fear about it - slavery... involuntary servitude.

When government becomes socialistic...

-     There are a lot of people in government who leech off the working populace, with the idea that they are regulating the socialism.

-     A lot more people attempt to get into government just so that they can get rich off socialism, and the government becomes gigantic.

-     People who don't get into government get on welfare.

-     Fewer and fewer workers support more and more of the people. Government leaders like it like this because they are getting rich off the whole socialistic process.

-     When things get to the point of collapse, a few smarter people in the top of government take over to keep the socialism from collapsing. They use force, and the government goes to communism or dictatorship.

So, what is there to like about socialism in government, especially if you like freedom?

The U.S. government and the U.S. Dollar look like they just might be bulging to the point of a collapse. Here is one of the things that you can watch for to tell that the collapse or change (to communism or dictatorship) is near. Watch for the revaluation of the Iraqi Dinar. When the Dinar moves towards equalization with the Dollar in a dramatic way, it means that the U.S. government is making a final effort to prop the Dollar up.

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/audioPop.jsp?episodeId=680915&cmd=apop

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January 13, 2015, 01:08:00 PM
 #646

I like socializing.

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January 13, 2015, 06:24:50 PM
 #647


Do you know Fascism?
If you understand what is Fascism, then you will know socialism is another type of Fascism.


Couldn't be more wrong if you tried, but thanks for the laugh.  Not all fascist regimes are socialist and not all socialist countries are fascist.  Fascism is typified by extreme nationalist views and socially repressive governments.  Their economic views aren't necessarily related.

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January 13, 2015, 06:33:27 PM
 #648

People in the U.S. don't fear or hate socialism. In fact, they willingly use it all the time. The like it. They thrive on it. Consider a bar situation, or a church meeting, or the gang from work that goes out to the restaurant for lunch. Many popular television sitcoms are socialistic in nature. Sex in the City.

Really? Man i must be out of touch. I had no idea that it was normal for a group of work colleagues to go out to eat and threaten to murder the wealthiest among them unless he agrees to pay for their lunches as well. I really need to get out more.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited? Is there any process, procedure or ritual through which an immoral action can be legitimately transformed into a moral one with out changing the character of the action itself?
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January 13, 2015, 06:40:45 PM
 #649

There are some of the many reasons:

1) Economic freedom/free markets have created one of the most prosperous periods in human history, not just for the US, but for the world. The US however, benefited more than many other countries because it took the idea so far.

2) We want to be responsible for, and free to manage our finances how we please. As far as I am concerned, no matter how much you feel socialism is a good idea, I have the right to live my life as I see fit as long as I don't encroach on the rights of others.

3) Socialism results in people taking less risks because they are no longer entitled to the full reward, which reduces innovation and return on investments.

4) Socialism encourages people to work less, and places the burden of funding the government (which also must become much larger and more expensive to operate a socialism system) on fewer and fewer people. This is because the net reward for work falls as government benefits help people who are either not working or are working less than they should be and people who are working lose part of the reward through taxes.

5) Increased government regulation of businesses discourages investment and makes some potentially profitable businesses impossible to operate profitably. Unneeded employees must be hired just to deal with bureaucratic requirements.

6) The only way for socialism to work is if the government uses force on it's citizens. You cannot take money from people, close down businesses that don't align with government goals, and force people to comply with economic policies without the threat of violence. This is why economically repressed countries like China and North Korea also have low personal freedom. If the government granted citizens personal freedom, they would be more likely, if not guaranteed to demand and even fight for the rights to their own property.

That being said, over the past century America has become more and more socialist. It has happened slowly because a large part of the population does fear socialism, but to paraphrase a famous quote, the American people, by and large are strongly in favor of socialist ideas as long as the word socialist is not used. That is why the American welfare state has seen so much growth, and sure enough, our economy has seen more and more problems as this welfare state has continued to usurp the free market.
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January 13, 2015, 06:57:13 PM
 #650

People in the U.S. don't fear or hate socialism. In fact, they willingly use it all the time. The like it. They thrive on it. Consider a bar situation, or a church meeting, or the gang from work that goes out to the restaurant for lunch. Many popular television sitcoms are socialistic in nature. Sex in the City.

Really? Man i must be out of touch. I had no idea that it was normal for a group of work colleagues to go out to eat and threaten to murder the wealthiest among them unless he agrees to pay for their lunches as well. I really need to get out more.

Exactly. There is a huge difference between voluntary economic cooperation in a small setting, and forced participation in a huge, unwieldy system which deprives individual members of their economic rights.
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January 13, 2015, 07:55:04 PM
 #651

People in the U.S. don't fear or hate socialism. In fact, they willingly use it all the time. The like it. They thrive on it. Consider a bar situation, or a church meeting, or the gang from work that goes out to the restaurant for lunch. Many popular television sitcoms are socialistic in nature. Sex in the City.

Really? Man i must be out of touch. I had no idea that it was normal for a group of work colleagues to go out to eat and threaten to murder the wealthiest among them unless he agrees to pay for their lunches as well. I really need to get out more.

And you still don't have that idea, right? But if you do, you really ARE out of touch.

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January 13, 2015, 11:16:53 PM
 #652

would you like to work hard in life and get some or all of it taken away because someone else doesn't work as hard as you.
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January 14, 2015, 01:45:18 AM
 #653

People in the U.S. don't fear or hate socialism. In fact, they willingly use it all the time. The like it. They thrive on it. Consider a bar situation, or a church meeting, or the gang from work that goes out to the restaurant for lunch. Many popular television sitcoms are socialistic in nature. Sex in the City.

Really? Man i must be out of touch. I had no idea that it was normal for a group of work colleagues to go out to eat and threaten to murder the wealthiest among them unless he agrees to pay for their lunches as well. I really need to get out more.

Most people don't like the idea of the wealthiest among them being the one dictating what, where and when they eat either. Can you really have a democratic society with widespread inequality?

would you like to work hard in life and get some or all of it taken away because someone else doesn't work as hard as you.

Working hard doesn't ensure you'll have enough to live. Sometimes life sucks and you need help.

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January 14, 2015, 02:47:40 AM
 #654

People in the U.S. don't fear or hate socialism. In fact, they willingly use it all the time. The like it. They thrive on it. Consider a bar situation, or a church meeting, or the gang from work that goes out to the restaurant for lunch. Many popular television sitcoms are socialistic in nature. Sex in the City.

Really? Man i must be out of touch. I had no idea that it was normal for a group of work colleagues to go out to eat and threaten to murder the wealthiest among them unless he agrees to pay for their lunches as well. I really need to get out more.

Most people don't like the idea of the wealthiest among them being the one dictating what, where and when they eat either. Can you really have a democratic society with widespread inequality?

Well ok so my example described socialism and you seem to be describing mercantilism. Yes i think its true that most people would not support either your example or mercantilism. It should be noted that you definitely did not describe capitalism. Under capitalism every person is free to eat any where every they like assuming they can afford it, and if they all eat at the same restaurant than its because each and every individual personally chose to eat at the restaurant at the same time that the others made the same choice.

People in the U.S. don't fear or hate socialism. In fact, they willingly use it all the time. The like it. They thrive on it. Consider a bar situation, or a church meeting, or the gang from work that goes out to the restaurant for lunch. Many popular television sitcoms are socialistic in nature. Sex in the City.

Really? Man i must be out of touch. I had no idea that it was normal for a group of work colleagues to go out to eat and threaten to murder the wealthiest among them unless he agrees to pay for their lunches as well. I really need to get out more.

would you like to work hard in life and get some or all of it taken away because someone else doesn't work as hard as you.

Working hard doesn't ensure you'll have enough to live. Sometimes life sucks and you need help.

Yea of course. If you want to help someone than do it. I don't think there is a libertarian anywhere who would suggest that anyone should be violently prohibited from helping someone who needs help. We just dont think that alice should be allowed to threaten violence against bob because charly is down on his luck. If alice wants to do something to help charly than she can give away some of her own property, and if bob wants to do something to help than he can give away some of his own property, but alice has no right to force bob to give away his property to charly.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited? Is there any process, procedure or ritual through which an immoral action can be legitimately transformed into a moral one with out changing the character of the action itself?
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January 14, 2015, 04:13:05 AM
 #655

I don't understand, maybe I'm just too young with whole cold-war mentality born just around collapse. Sure communism didn't work out very well.

But, I do prefer some socialism to pure capitalism. So I don't realy get this whole fear of it in USA, it can't be all bad or is it? Can someone explain it to me?

I totally agree.  But you can't help the stupidity of mob mentality.  It's the same stupidity that elects presidents for how they say what they are saying instead of what they actually say.  Gore was "boring".  That's a really stupid reason to ignore brilliant ideas.

As for as socio-economic models go, there's nothing wrong with Socialism.  In fact, models of socialism exist all over in the US.  Just consider all the publicly owned utility services like electricity.

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January 14, 2015, 06:28:13 AM
 #656

Just consider all the publicly owned utility services like electricity.

Electricity is almost entirely privately provided in the united states. Maybe the hoover damn is an exception? Maybe a few others? Pretty rare if it exists at all. Look at your electricity bill sometime. See who you are paying it to. It will probably be a private corporation.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited? Is there any process, procedure or ritual through which an immoral action can be legitimately transformed into a moral one with out changing the character of the action itself?
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January 14, 2015, 06:56:22 AM
 #657

Just consider all the publicly owned utility services like electricity.

Electricity is almost entirely privately provided in the united states. Maybe the hoover damn is an exception? Maybe a few others? Pretty rare if it exists at all. Look at your electricity bill sometime. See who you are paying it to. It will probably be a private corporation.

Ever been to a Corporation Commission (called by different names in different States) meeting? They are State run agencies that control how much the private electric companies charge for the electricity (among other things). Their people are often elected by the popular vote, but sometimes are appointed. Once the officials get into office, you have to trust that they are doing the best job that they can to make sure that the power companies are getting enough pay for the electricity that they sell, so they can adequately meet expenses. You also have to trust that are not allowing the power companies to overcharge the people - like NASA charges $100 for a $15 wrench.

Sure, these officials can be impeached (fired) from office if they are screwing either the power companies or the people. And, sure, there are citizen watch-dog groups that are constantly trying to keep an eye on the whole operation. But there is a whole bunch of bribery going on. And being government directed, there's always going to be a bunch of waste and misappropriation of funds.

Smiley
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January 14, 2015, 07:04:37 AM
 #658

Just consider all the publicly owned utility services like electricity.

Electricity is almost entirely privately provided in the united states. Maybe the hoover damn is an exception? Maybe a few others? Pretty rare if it exists at all. Look at your electricity bill sometime. See who you are paying it to. It will probably be a private corporation.

Ever been to a Corporation Commission (called by different names in different States) meeting? They are State run agencies that control how much the private electric companies charge for the electricity (among other things). Their people are often elected by the popular vote, but sometimes are appointed. Once the officials get into office, you have to trust that they are doing the best job that they can to make sure that the power companies are getting enough pay for the electricity that they sell, so they can adequately meet expenses. You also have to trust that are not allowing the power companies to overcharge the people - like NASA charges $100 for a $15 wrench.

Sure, these officials can be impeached (fired) from office if they are screwing either the power companies or the people. And, sure, there are citizen watch-dog groups that are constantly trying to keep an eye on the whole operation. But there is a whole bunch of bribery going on. And being government directed, there's always going to be a bunch of waste and misappropriation of funds.

Smiley

Interesting stuff. I don't think it refutes anything i said though does it? Just an interesting aside?

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited? Is there any process, procedure or ritual through which an immoral action can be legitimately transformed into a moral one with out changing the character of the action itself?
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January 14, 2015, 07:19:50 AM
 #659

Just consider all the publicly owned utility services like electricity.

Electricity is almost entirely privately provided in the united states. Maybe the hoover damn is an exception? Maybe a few others? Pretty rare if it exists at all. Look at your electricity bill sometime. See who you are paying it to. It will probably be a private corporation.

Ever been to a Corporation Commission (called by different names in different States) meeting? They are State run agencies that control how much the private electric companies charge for the electricity (among other things). Their people are often elected by the popular vote, but sometimes are appointed. Once the officials get into office, you have to trust that they are doing the best job that they can to make sure that the power companies are getting enough pay for the electricity that they sell, so they can adequately meet expenses. You also have to trust that are not allowing the power companies to overcharge the people - like NASA charges $100 for a $15 wrench.

Sure, these officials can be impeached (fired) from office if they are screwing either the power companies or the people. And, sure, there are citizen watch-dog groups that are constantly trying to keep an eye on the whole operation. But there is a whole bunch of bribery going on. And being government directed, there's always going to be a bunch of waste and misappropriation of funds.

Smiley

Interesting stuff. I don't think it refutes anything i said though does it? Just an interesting aside?

Wasn't meant to refute anything.

Was meant to explain that, with something that is so extremely important in the lives of everyone like electricity is, government seems to be needed to smooth out the "humps" that the power companies might place on the flow of electricity at a reasonable price to everyone.

The thing that is really happening is that the government is being regulated by the power companies behind the scenes so that they are, at times, raking in undue profits. The government also winds up making the power companies into a monopoly. Yet the people are led to believe by this system that they have control over the power companies, which they do NOT!

Smiley

EDIT: This is socialism being operated behind the scenes, in a land where socialism is not allowed formally.
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January 14, 2015, 10:15:28 AM
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