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Author Topic: [ANN] [MINT] Mintcoin (POS / 5%) [NO ICO] [Fair distro, community maintained]  (Read 1294908 times)
presstab
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July 01, 2015, 03:43:33 AM
 #18081

Cool. Thank you for the efforts. Looking into the code for a definite answer would be great. Then we can decide from there. I'll throw up a few million mints for any additional changes we decide we want to do. Let's get this coin set right!

Yes now is the time to think about it all. So is everyone a no for changing block time to be a bit higher in order to preserve the syncability of the chain over the long run?

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July 01, 2015, 04:43:40 AM
 #18082

Cool. Thank you for the efforts. Looking into the code for a definite answer would be great. Then we can decide from there. I'll throw up a few million mints for any additional changes we decide we want to do. Let's get this coin set right!

Yes now is the time to think about it all. So is everyone a no for changing block time to be a bit higher in order to preserve the syncability of the chain over the long run?
I think I'm happy with the block time the way it is. I like how fast it is and would rather not change it.

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July 01, 2015, 05:38:26 AM
 #18083

Yes now is the time to think about it all. So is everyone a no for changing block time to be a bit higher in order to preserve the syncability of the chain over the long run?
Yeah. I'm a "No" vote as far as changing the block time. We have the bootstrap that cuts the time to sync down. There is also the option of doing a periodic genesis block every 3 years or so if we decide it is necessary. I think those are better options at this point that a block time change. IMO that would totally change the "feel" of MINT. Part of what makes MINT what it is, is it's block speed, and changing the block time, would also impact how many mintings are able to be completed, etc... so I'm not in favor of messing with that unless it is discovered we absolutely must.

If I understand everything so far, the other proposed changes are things that seem to be good and needed for strong lasting security, so I would be for them. Seems we should really try to get the "time drift" and "hash drift" to where they need to be so to prevent a timewarp attack (under 30 seconds like coolbeans proposed would eliminate the risk entirely?). 
Also, increasing the number of confirmations by 10x seems good to me. Should we also increase the confirmations needed for a new minting to be usable? If I am not mistaken, I believe it is currently it is currently at 50 confirmations - so increasing it by 10x would be 500 confirmations.
And a coin cap hard limit, replaced by 1 new coin per block makes sense. If coins keep getting lost, which is bound to happen, over time, there could be too few coins to function as a usable currency.

Anyway, good discussion. Glad to see some good though being put into this rather than just jumping to conclusions. Any changes, that require a hard fork, we need to be sure will be positively for the benefit of the coin and community. Obviously security is the #1 priority, for without it, you have neither coin or community.

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July 01, 2015, 06:41:37 AM
 #18084

I have been giving this timedrift issue a lot of thought.  Roll Eyes

Would it even be anymore beneficial to make it below the block target of 30 seconds? Starting to think it would not.

Maybe the better composition would be to just have the hashdrift set at say 24 seconds, and the timedrift set at say 30 seconds. This way if an attacker were to go to the max 30 seconds, the effect is 0 on the difficulty, since it is line with the block target.

But here is my other thought, Roll Eyes
Is it at all possible, that if someone goes out less than the block time, they could "INCREASE" the difficulty? Is a timewarp attack possible in the other direction so as to attack it by making the difficulty go way way up? (Essentially causing a denial of service type attack?)
What is the effect of the timewarp attack on the the network if the timedrift is below the block target time?

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July 01, 2015, 03:41:27 PM
 #18085

I'm not sure exactly how timewarp works.  The way I was thinking about it though, I thought it only allows you to go extra time into the future, and the closer timedrift you have the harder it is to "trick" the network. So it would be extremely improbable to do anything under 30 seconds, so my guess is it would be safe if we got it down that low.
Also, assuming you could increase the difficulty, wouldn't it be self correcting by the fact that each time it would make it harder to "rinse and repeat"? As the difficulty increased, the network weight would keep building up until it eventually overpowered the attack, and consecutive attacks would be harder and harder. So my thinking is we only need to protect it from a decreasing difficulty attack. So if that is the case then yeah, 26 seconds for hashdrift and 30 seconds for timedrift would work.

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July 01, 2015, 07:11:26 PM
 #18086

Nice to see that we have a dev (thanks Presstab) and lots of talk is going on to fix lots of issues. Here are my 2 cents on

Block Time Issue

I think 30 seconds block time is good & one of the +ve points of MINT. We just need to upload either a torrent or sync file every week. Also, alternate clients like electrum or MultiMINT might not help because AFAIK you can't mint with them.

Timewarp Issue

I dont know much about it so i guess experts have pretty much sorted it out and will take right decision.

Mintcoin Central

Just a reminder to people that I bought the www.mintcoin-central.com domain from the old developer, and I have all the assets for the old site in wordpress format. Now that mintcoin is going so strong, maybe we can table some ideas for what this website can do that would be of benefit to mintcoin.

This whole debacle in Greece, where banks have shuttered and have tiny daily withdrawal limits, really shows how important something like Mintcoin is. We can leave it to Bitcoin to advocate for Cryptos in general and have infastructure in place, while Mintcoin can quietly generate interest and make gains for people that know about it, but what can a new site do to help bring 'Mintcoin to the masses' so to speak?

I will suggest that we publish weekly/monthly updates on our partnerships with charities and show the progress of various fundraisers. This will give new investors/adopters a reason other than speculation to invest in the coin. It will give whole coin a purpose that will be visible and will garner attention of wider non-crypto public.

I would also remid every one to donate to cryptoID block explorer. I am doing a 0.01 BTC every week there. If some other contribution come in & we have hosting for say 6 months then i can send same amount to dev bounty.

Regards

Sam Smiley

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July 01, 2015, 07:12:33 PM
 #18087

I am so happy to see such deep discussion. Thanks to all of you Smiley

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July 01, 2015, 07:22:44 PM
 #18088

Regarding the timewarp issue:
I think we should keep it as simple as possible and keep with using more even numbers. I propose 20 seconds for hashdrift, and 30 seconds for timedrift. Open to other opinions though. Just out of curiosity, how is Blackcoin's timedrift and hashdrift setup? Someone said they have a 15 second timedrift....so what is their hashdrift set at? 

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July 01, 2015, 07:48:19 PM
 #18089

Sounds like the block time of 30 seconds for MINT is something that most of you consider enough of the coin's personality, that it would really change too much if that was altered.

Concerning drift. Blackcoin uses a 1 second search interval. Hashdrift is a term I have created myself, as an easier way to describe things to people. So if you see anyone, or the code itself, refer to search interval then think "hashdrift".

So blackcoin and the derivatives of it, will loop through the staking process every second, and look only at only one second worth of timestamps at a time. It isn't really all that different from MINT's current system, except that as is MINT will scan the first 60 timestamps, and then hash each new second at a time.

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July 01, 2015, 08:07:36 PM
 #18090

Sounds like the block time of 30 seconds for MINT is something that most of you consider enough of the coin's personality, that it would really change too much if that was altered.

Concerning drift. Blackcoin uses a 1 second search interval. Hashdrift is a term I have created myself, as an easier way to describe things to people. So if you see anyone, or the code itself, refer to search interval then think "hashdrift".

So blackcoin and the derivatives of it, will loop through the staking process every second, and look only at only one second worth of timestamps at a time. It isn't really all that different from MINT's current system, except that as is MINT will scan the first 60 timestamps, and then hash each new second at a time.

Interesting. I like the term.
So they essentially have their timedrift 15 seconds after their hashdrift (search interval). Correct?
If that seems to work, then we probably want to have 15 seconds more for the timedrift as well.

In light of the above, and past discussions, it seems to me, what would work well for Mintcoin, is to do 15 second hashdrift (search interval) and a a 30 second timedrift.  That seems to cover all the bases now.  Roll Eyes  Smiley

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July 01, 2015, 08:31:30 PM
 #18091

Sounds like the block time of 30 seconds for MINT is something that most of you consider enough of the coin's personality, that it would really change too much if that was altered.

Concerning drift. Blackcoin uses a 1 second search interval. Hashdrift is a term I have created myself, as an easier way to describe things to people. So if you see anyone, or the code itself, refer to search interval then think "hashdrift".

So blackcoin and the derivatives of it, will loop through the staking process every second, and look only at only one second worth of timestamps at a time. It isn't really all that different from MINT's current system, except that as is MINT will scan the first 60 timestamps, and then hash each new second at a time.

Does this also affect the CPU & RAM usage, if i am getting this right, it has to keep 60 timestamps/blocks in RAM thus more RAM usage. I have seen that coins on POS 1.0 which have low block interval, consume a lot of RAM & CPU. For example UTC & MINT both use 625+ MB of RAM & 2-10% of a quad core at regular intervals.

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July 01, 2015, 08:51:39 PM
 #18092

Sounds like the block time of 30 seconds for MINT is something that most of you consider enough of the coin's personality, that it would really change too much if that was altered.

Concerning drift. Blackcoin uses a 1 second search interval. Hashdrift is a term I have created myself, as an easier way to describe things to people. So if you see anyone, or the code itself, refer to search interval then think "hashdrift".

So blackcoin and the derivatives of it, will loop through the staking process every second, and look only at only one second worth of timestamps at a time. It isn't really all that different from MINT's current system, except that as is MINT will scan the first 60 timestamps, and then hash each new second at a time.

Does this also affect the CPU & RAM usage, if i am getting this right, it has to keep 60 timestamps/blocks in RAM thus more RAM usage. I have seen that coins on POS 1.0 which have low block interval, consume a lot of RAM & CPU. For example UTC & MINT both use 625+ MB of RAM & 2-10% of a quad core at regular intervals.
Makes sense to me, that reducing it like we are discussing would lower the CPU & RAM.

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July 01, 2015, 09:13:02 PM
 #18093

Sounds like the block time of 30 seconds for MINT is something that most of you consider enough of the coin's personality, that it would really change too much if that was altered.

Concerning drift. Blackcoin uses a 1 second search interval. Hashdrift is a term I have created myself, as an easier way to describe things to people. So if you see anyone, or the code itself, refer to search interval then think "hashdrift".

So blackcoin and the derivatives of it, will loop through the staking process every second, and look only at only one second worth of timestamps at a time. It isn't really all that different from MINT's current system, except that as is MINT will scan the first 60 timestamps, and then hash each new second at a time.

Does this also affect the CPU & RAM usage, if i am getting this right, it has to keep 60 timestamps/blocks in RAM thus more RAM usage. I have seen that coins on POS 1.0 which have low block interval, consume a lot of RAM & CPU. For example UTC & MINT both use 625+ MB of RAM & 2-10% of a quad core at regular intervals.
Makes sense to me, that reducing it like we are discussing would lower the CPU & RAM.

Cool, that would be good side effect/added benefit!!

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July 01, 2015, 09:15:34 PM
 #18094

If my assumptions are correct it will have no impact on RAM or on CPU.

Although it hashes the first 60 hashes * the amount of mature unspent outputs you have, those hashes are all destroyed the second the code leaves the scope of CheckKernelStakeHash(), as this is how c++ works.

The current code hashes the first 60 seconds, then hashes timestamp 61 after one second passes, then 62 after two seconds pass, etc. Not 60 hashes each time (or else if it is doing so, it is not designed to be this way).

MINT has a very very old codebase, that hasn't been updated much in terms of efficiency, as well as a huge blockchain. The pool of unspent outputs for the entire network is stored in your RAM, thus this means a large amount of ram for an old chain with lost coins or lots of cold storage outputs. The CPU usage is probably a combination of all these items.

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July 01, 2015, 09:24:31 PM
 #18095

so to reduce the RAM usage we need everyone to consolidate there outputs into bigger less numerous outputs.

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July 01, 2015, 09:36:57 PM
 #18096

If my assumptions are correct it will have no impact on RAM or on CPU.

Although it hashes the first 60 hashes * the amount of mature unspent outputs you have, those hashes are all destroyed the second the code leaves the scope of CheckKernelStakeHash(), as this is how c++ works.

The current code hashes the first 60 seconds, then hashes timestamp 61 after one second passes, then 62 after two seconds pass, etc. Not 60 hashes each time (or else if it is doing so, it is not designed to be this way).

MINT has a very very old codebase, that hasn't been updated much in terms of efficiency, as well as a huge blockchain. The pool of unspent outputs for the entire network is stored in your RAM, thus this means a large amount of ram for an old chain with lost coins or lots of cold storage outputs. The CPU usage is probably a combination of all these items.
What do you recommend to improve efficiency specifically how to cut back on RAM usage? I've noticed this too that very gradually the RAM usage has tended to rise.

(1.) Moral happiness depends upon moral order.
(2.) Moral order depends upon the harmonious action of all our powers, as
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July 01, 2015, 10:00:43 PM
 #18097

If my assumptions are correct it will have no impact on RAM or on CPU.

Although it hashes the first 60 hashes * the amount of mature unspent outputs you have, those hashes are all destroyed the second the code leaves the scope of CheckKernelStakeHash(), as this is how c++ works.

The current code hashes the first 60 seconds, then hashes timestamp 61 after one second passes, then 62 after two seconds pass, etc. Not 60 hashes each time (or else if it is doing so, it is not designed to be this way).

MINT has a very very old codebase, that hasn't been updated much in terms of efficiency, as well as a huge blockchain. The pool of unspent outputs for the entire network is stored in your RAM, thus this means a large amount of ram for an old chain with lost coins or lots of cold storage outputs. The CPU usage is probably a combination of all these items.
What do you recommend to improve efficiency specifically how to cut back on RAM usage? I've noticed this too that very gradually the RAM usage has tended to rise.
Would creating a new Genesis block  help with this and cut down the RAM?

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July 01, 2015, 10:08:52 PM
 #18098

If my assumptions are correct it will have no impact on RAM or on CPU.

Although it hashes the first 60 hashes * the amount of mature unspent outputs you have, those hashes are all destroyed the second the code leaves the scope of CheckKernelStakeHash(), as this is how c++ works.

The current code hashes the first 60 seconds, then hashes timestamp 61 after one second passes, then 62 after two seconds pass, etc. Not 60 hashes each time (or else if it is doing so, it is not designed to be this way).

MINT has a very very old codebase, that hasn't been updated much in terms of efficiency, as well as a huge blockchain. The pool of unspent outputs for the entire network is stored in your RAM, thus this means a large amount of ram for an old chain with lost coins or lots of cold storage outputs. The CPU usage is probably a combination of all these items.
What do you recommend to improve efficiency specifically how to cut back on RAM usage? I've noticed this too that very gradually the RAM usage has tended to rise.

There may be a few areas in the code that have some unpatched memory leaks, but these are fairly small leaks, and the bulk of the RAM usage is not really reversible. Its the fact that there are so many unused outputs in the RAM. So its my opinion that the majority of the RAM consumption will be here to stay, unless you go chain swap which in my opinion should be a last resort reserved for emergencies or disfunctionally large chains.

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July 01, 2015, 10:22:49 PM
 #18099

Yeah. In my opinion the RAM issue is less critical. I think we do need to patch the timewarp issue and maybe increase the confirmations at this point. Probably anything else can wait for now. Beefing up the security of the coin is the main thing. Is everyone in agreement on that?

I think 15 second hashdrift with 30 second timedrift, and bumping up from 4 to 40 confirmations sounds good to me. I would only increase the confirmations required for new coins that are staking from 50 to maybe 100 confirmations, or it will take over an hour to use any newly minted coins.

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July 01, 2015, 10:55:14 PM
 #18100

+1 from me. Security is of utmost importance. Also I would like to hear Presstab's thoughts on POS 2.0 adoption as it is also related to security.

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