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Author Topic: [ANN] [MINT] Mintcoin (POS / 5%) [NO ICO] [Fair distro, community maintained]  (Read 1332872 times)
rokkyroad
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June 11, 2015, 04:48:42 PM
 #17881

will mintcoin go to 10 satoshi or not?   Huh Undecided

Mint is obviously gaining traction from the action we are witnessing this year. I would not count on sub 10 sat prices anytime soon. Looks like its year of the Mintcoin.


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June 11, 2015, 05:24:38 PM
 #17882


What is considered a large amount of mints?
Well, currently, about 40-million gets you in the top 100.

If Mintcoin goes to a dollar...

How did you come to the conclusion that 40 million mint gets you in the top 100? Interested.......

BITCOIN: 13UY67yfRjRVMR6hauZJbauHiDfeM2qXSg
MINTCOIN: MdVzxTfLDrzdij9vpee1YJGotBahfsfmqs
ASIACOIN: AH7dunb5G99XzCNj1KnGCdPkqc27pRPfBu
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June 11, 2015, 05:29:09 PM
 #17883

Holy Crap Mint jumped to 136 BTC Volume and - 0.00000036 BTC
NICE!!!!!!

BITCOIN: 13UY67yfRjRVMR6hauZJbauHiDfeM2qXSg
MINTCOIN: MdVzxTfLDrzdij9vpee1YJGotBahfsfmqs
ASIACOIN: AH7dunb5G99XzCNj1KnGCdPkqc27pRPfBu
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June 11, 2015, 05:29:44 PM
 #17884


What is considered a large amount of mints?
Well, currently, about 40-million gets you in the top 100.

If Mintcoin goes to a dollar...

How did you come to the conclusion that 40 million mint gets you in the top 100? Interested.......

Have a look at this: https://chainz.cryptoid.info/mint/#!rich  Wink
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June 11, 2015, 07:46:50 PM
 #17885


What is considered a large amount of mints?
Well, currently, about 40-million gets you in the top 100.

If Mintcoin goes to a dollar...

How did you come to the conclusion that 40 million mint gets you in the top 100? Interested.......

Have a look at this: https://chainz.cryptoid.info/mint/#!rich  Wink

Thanks

BITCOIN: 13UY67yfRjRVMR6hauZJbauHiDfeM2qXSg
MINTCOIN: MdVzxTfLDrzdij9vpee1YJGotBahfsfmqs
ASIACOIN: AH7dunb5G99XzCNj1KnGCdPkqc27pRPfBu
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June 11, 2015, 08:36:27 PM
 #17886

mint has flavor and can be money maker
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June 11, 2015, 08:58:11 PM
 #17887

Updated PM sent with the BBcoding for the OP has been sent to mintcointeam account, it's on github ~here~ if anyone wants to look over the code & push the update for all the broken links. Actual updates were pushed to git & PM'd almost a month ago for all the broken links in the OP, just FYI. Updates can be done to the OP code, but I can't actually make the update & as everyone sees that's how crypto works.

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June 11, 2015, 09:00:12 PM
 #17888

Why not to host the blockchain directly in mega?
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June 11, 2015, 10:29:12 PM
 #17889

Honestly, you cannot compare Mint to Apex. Apex has bad pos parameters. For example 24 hour min stake time...60 second blocks, that is terrible for security, which is exactly what we are talking about. Mintcoin has less than 30 second confirmations and 20 days min stake time and a max coin weight of 40 days so you cannot save up weight indefinitely to create an attack. It is secure both from too little, and too much staking time. You need a balance and MINT has this balance, for performance, security, and minting fairness, imo.

Yes I can compare mint to apex, Different PoS Parameter do affect security, but PoS is still PoS,
your current parameters will only work well with a PoS 1 style coin, as not everyone can keep a system online 20 days straight, that is why min stake age would have to be lowered with a PoS II coin.

The only point I am stating is if there is a switch to PoS II, it will require a change in min stake time, no way around it. When you get a new dev , he will say the same thing, if you want your users to be able to stake a PoS II style coin. If you don't switch to PoS II , then parameters change is not an issue, only if you do switch.

PoS security is determined by the # of coins staking and their weight.
Currently 3% staking at the time of this post, comes out to 635,5557,506 mintcoins.
51% attack
635,557,506*51%= 324,134,328.06
if someone waited until max weight is achieved 20X
324,134,328.06 /20 = 16,206,716.403

Then for only ~16,206,716.403 mintcoins purchased , someone could doublespend on your network after reaching full weight.

FYI:
Your Max weight is 20 days not 40 days, weight does not begin until 20 days and it stops gaining weight at 40 days. So only 20X the amount per block is the max weight, not 40x.

 Cool



This exactly. POS 2.0 is nice way to force people to stake. If say 30-50% would have been staking, then i would be okay with POS 1.0 but that is not the case. The technical details dont matter. I am just worried about security.

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June 11, 2015, 10:41:21 PM
 #17890

@cryptomommy
Thanks for updating the OP. Although i was asking for a poll like one i linked to in my previous post. May be mintcointeam can do that. Again here is the link.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1019681.0
Above thread has a poll attached to it. Can we have something like that?

@ZeitKnight
Thanks for the helping hand with explaining the problem and getting the discussion forward Smiley

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June 12, 2015, 12:45:06 AM
 #17891

@cryptomommy
Thanks for updating the OP. Although i was asking for a poll like one i linked to in my previous post. May be mintcointeam can do that. Again here is the link.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1019681.0
Above thread has a poll attached to it. Can we have something like that?

@ZeitKnight
Thanks for the helping hand with explaining the problem and getting the discussion forward Smiley

Something like that only works with a MOD'd thread (not 100% sure, been a while since working on the TECH one), anyone can open a new thread up & create one. A countless # (49 days, 2 hours & 47 minutes of reading) of threads read on here have been people even copy & pasting the OP, when they are rebuilding / etc... I could even PM you with some well coded OP for it, which I use to venture out & find Original Post to work on, but lost the trust in not knowing who I'm even working with (volunteering for). Anyone can create a fake name, I've used my real one in PM's for well over a year & for the reason of seeing this actual be something other than just another fad as they say (this is just the first years of software & hardware accelerated, but many seem to enjoy the caveman/women style of life?). Change the world for good, because it's getting harder & harder each & every day to live in the world we have created over the centuries. The funny thing is I would post in so many threads on thoughts (the mind changes so quickly though), but I offered to help with the OP & cryptomommy was very honest. Asked me to join Trello (left only because of being to busy at the moment in life), which I seen all kinds of great work being done by several people of the community (that should be in the OP & website, the same as all these new Slack over IRC users?).

Dream 2 Dream 4 p2p, think Big or Small 4 p2b && never Give up on a brighter future 4 our next Generations in a Digital Wolrd  Wink     Gift5YapqsZqSTW8T4S3sCU4sngCkvh4ba     1PAGEHrN62tgUHncGWbbhKe9jhZGXsxFC4     ((Unix Timestamp{if} DATA / TIME = nLOCK @ 1577836800 {then} POST = .dat * %)) ~ 03:14:07 UTC on 19 January 2038 "U have 18 years + 18 days, problem already solved && all U have to do it show proof of work"
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June 12, 2015, 06:39:31 AM
 #17892

Honestly, you cannot compare Mint to Apex. Apex has bad pos parameters. For example 24 hour min stake time...60 second blocks, that is terrible for security, which is exactly what we are talking about. Mintcoin has less than 30 second confirmations and 20 days min stake time and a max coin weight of 40 days so you cannot save up weight indefinitely to create an attack. It is secure both from too little, and too much staking time. You need a balance and MINT has this balance, for performance, security, and minting fairness, imo.

Yes I can compare mint to apex, Different PoS Parameter do affect security, but PoS is still PoS,
your current parameters will only work well with a PoS 1 style coin, as not everyone can keep a system online 20 days straight, that is why min stake age would have to be lowered with a PoS II coin.

The only point I am stating is if there is a switch to PoS II, it will require a change in min stake time, no way around it. When you get a new dev , he will say the same thing, if you want your users to be able to stake a PoS II style coin. If you don't switch to PoS II , then parameters change is not an issue, only if you do switch.

PoS security is determined by the # of coins staking and their weight.
Currently 3% staking at the time of this post, comes out to 635,5557,506 mintcoins.
51% attack
635,557,506*51%= 324,134,328.06
if someone waited until max weight is achieved 20X
324,134,328.06 /20 = 16,206,716.403

Then for only ~16,206,716.403 mintcoins purchased , someone could doublespend on your network after reaching full weight.

FYI:
Your Max weight is 20 days not 40 days, weight does not begin until 20 days and it stops gaining weight at 40 days. So only 20X the amount per block is the max weight, not 40x.

 Cool



This exactly. POS 2.0 is nice way to force people to stake. If say 30-50% would have been staking, then i would be okay with POS 1.0 but that is not the case. The technical details dont matter. I am just worried about security.

POS 2.0 is also a nice way to scam people because it forces centralizatoin into only the top few holders that will ever be the ones staking anything. If the vast majority of people are not able to stake their coins because they don't have enough weight after 24 hours, or 8 hours, everyday, or every 8 hours, those top holders will be staking fresh over and over again while the rest of the people never do. If you eliminate access to staking to vast majority of coin holders, such as POS 2.0 then how does that make it anymore secure, when you basically guaranteeing the same top people have total control over the network and could doublespend even easier? You make it harder for some to stake, yet easier for others, so in the end it is a mute point. Trading one dirty dog for a different dirty dog of a different breed...still a dirty dog, and that dog may actually be "dirtier". It would be interesting to do the calculation on POS 2.0 to examine how much EASIER with lowering the minimum stake age, does attacking the network actually become, for those with the weight to do it.

In the end, with POS you still have to trust your other stakers at the end of the day, just like in Bitcoin, you need to trust your other miners. Exchanging decentralized mining, for centralized mining is essentially what POS 2.0 achieves in staking.

Mintcoin's POS is much more decentralized, "fairer" (people with a just a few thousand mintcoins will be able to stake and mint new coins - so just about anyone can get in on the rewards of minting. This is potentially motivating for a much broader audience to even attempt to participate in the staking process. POS 2.0 eliminates access to staking to the vast majority of coin holders.
POS 1.0 may be less secure from one angle, one point of view; however, it may be "secure enough", and potentially more secure in the long run. I must say, it has been successful thus far. In you above example, there are other variables to consider that may affect your judgement, such as lost coins. For example, if Mintcoin has a higher % of lost coins than other coins, then the total staking in the last 1000, may be 3% but that could really be a higher % of total coins in actual circulation. From a calculation standpoint. Let's just run with it for a moment and assume that an attack actually could happen with 16-million coins. Assuming this is true, then it means a greater "risk" for top holders, relative to low coin holders, than say a POS 2.0 coin. Question: What would be the result?
The result would be a greater tendency toward fairer distribution on the network. High net worth "whale" individuals, might be wary of going all in on Mintcoin. On the other hand, If I can only afford 300,000 mintcoins, but I am guaranteed to be able to stake with that amount, then it might be worth it to go with Mintcoin, rather than go with some other coin where I cannot get in on the staking reward.

But as Mintcoin scales, so does the security... Smiley

Say the price rises to where 1 Mintcoin = $1 USD

Then that same 16-million mintcoins needed for an attack ...costs $16,000,000 USD

The investor logic still carries... anyone who has $300,000 is still guaranteed to mint, but they would not be able to with a POS 2.0 coin of the same market-cap comparative to Mintcoin.


If you are following my reasoning here, hopefully you are beginning to see how POS 1.0 is a self balancing system. Yes, it may not be as secure as you want it to be "right now" for how much money you have "right now", but then, don't invest in it. If you feel it is too insecure, then you won't. You may just dip your toe into the market, and grab 300,000 coins because, at least you will be able to generate staking rewards and mint new coins indefinitely. It is all about determining your risk-reward ratio. The "Security Risk-Reward Ratio" is something built into every POS coin. Mintcoin has it's parameters, other coins have theirs. As user adoption increases, so does the security, or hypothetical "cost of attack". With enough adoption, Mintcoin could be more secure than any POS 2.0 coin. Maybe people have already tried to attack it and failed, so they decide to go Long MINT. Just sharing some possible insights and other ways to look at it.

Mintcoin promotes decentralized nodes. This may sound scary for those without the "control" over the network. But I think in the long run, a more decentralized method will win out in the end. People will get miffed if they can never get a successful staking. If many different people are able to mint coins, it will actually promote a greater variety of nodes in the long-term to be motivated to come online and connect to network. The opposite is what happens with POS 2.0 because if you never are able to stake, then what's the point of ever turning your wallet on at all? At least with Mintcoin, people are connecting to the network every 20 days or so, and successfully minting, and that is better than not connecting at all.

All I am saying is the whole topic is not so cut and dry, black and white. This is a massive grey area. This stuff is afterall and "experiment" lol. Personally, I choose Mintcoin because I believe in it long term. I believe it will last the test of time, and we can overcome any hurdles or challenges that may come. I like the parameters it has, and think it is the best combination of "fair" and "secure". Mintcoin allows for approximately 58,000 mintings every 20 days. THen the cycle starts over again.  That is a great distribution, vs., say, 8 hours * 60 minutes = 480 stakings (what you get with blackcoin?).

That is one of the main reasons I support Mintcoin, because I think it is a great coin to benefit the most amount of people. I mean I would venture to guess, that even Bitcoin miners are not even that will distributed accross 58,000 all consistently able to to count on getting a piece of a block every 20 days.

This is why I like Mintcoin, and am resistant to anyone proposing some change to it. Unless it is truely discovered that it's current design is broken, I see no reason to.
Blessings  Smiley

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June 12, 2015, 10:27:35 AM
 #17893

Honestly, you cannot compare Mint to Apex. Apex has bad pos parameters. For example 24 hour min stake time...60 second blocks, that is terrible for security, which is exactly what we are talking about. Mintcoin has less than 30 second confirmations and 20 days min stake time and a max coin weight of 40 days so you cannot save up weight indefinitely to create an attack. It is secure both from too little, and too much staking time. You need a balance and MINT has this balance, for performance, security, and minting fairness, imo.

Yes I can compare mint to apex, Different PoS Parameter do affect security, but PoS is still PoS,
your current parameters will only work well with a PoS 1 style coin, as not everyone can keep a system online 20 days straight, that is why min stake age would have to be lowered with a PoS II coin.

The only point I am stating is if there is a switch to PoS II, it will require a change in min stake time, no way around it. When you get a new dev , he will say the same thing, if you want your users to be able to stake a PoS II style coin. If you don't switch to PoS II , then parameters change is not an issue, only if you do switch.

PoS security is determined by the # of coins staking and their weight.
Currently 3% staking at the time of this post, comes out to 635,5557,506 mintcoins.
51% attack
635,557,506*51%= 324,134,328.06
if someone waited until max weight is achieved 20X
324,134,328.06 /20 = 16,206,716.403

Then for only ~16,206,716.403 mintcoins purchased , someone could doublespend on your network after reaching full weight.

FYI:
Your Max weight is 20 days not 40 days, weight does not begin until 20 days and it stops gaining weight at 40 days. So only 20X the amount per block is the max weight, not 40x.

 Cool



This exactly. POS 2.0 is nice way to force people to stake. If say 30-50% would have been staking, then i would be okay with POS 1.0 but that is not the case. The technical details dont matter. I am just worried about security.

POS 2.0 is also a nice way to scam people because it forces centralizatoin into only the top few holders that will ever be the ones staking anything. If the vast majority of people are not able to stake their coins because they don't have enough weight after 24 hours, or 8 hours, everyday, or every 8 hours, those top holders will be staking fresh over and over again while the rest of the people never do. If you eliminate access to staking to vast majority of coin holders, such as POS 2.0 then how does that make it anymore secure, when you basically guaranteeing the same top people have total control over the network and could doublespend even easier? You make it harder for some to stake, yet easier for others, so in the end it is a mute point. Trading one dirty dog for a different dirty dog of a different breed...still a dirty dog, and that dog may actually be "dirtier". It would be interesting to do the calculation on POS 2.0 to examine how much EASIER with lowering the minimum stake age, does attacking the network actually become, for those with the weight to do it.

In the end, with POS you still have to trust your other stakers at the end of the day, just like in Bitcoin, you need to trust your other miners. Exchanging decentralized mining, for centralized mining is essentially what POS 2.0 achieves in staking.

Mintcoin's POS is much more decentralized, "fairer" (people with a just a few thousand mintcoins will be able to stake and mint new coins - so just about anyone can get in on the rewards of minting. This is potentially motivating for a much broader audience to even attempt to participate in the staking process. POS 2.0 eliminates access to staking to the vast majority of coin holders.
POS 1.0 may be less secure from one angle, one point of view; however, it may be "secure enough", and potentially more secure in the long run. I must say, it has been successful thus far. In you above example, there are other variables to consider that may affect your judgement, such as lost coins. For example, if Mintcoin has a higher % of lost coins than other coins, then the total staking in the last 1000, may be 3% but that could really be a higher % of total coins in actual circulation. From a calculation standpoint. Let's just run with it for a moment and assume that an attack actually could happen with 16-million coins. Assuming this is true, then it means a greater "risk" for top holders, relative to low coin holders, than say a POS 2.0 coin. Question: What would be the result?
The result would be a greater tendency toward fairer distribution on the network. High net worth "whale" individuals, might be wary of going all in on Mintcoin. On the other hand, If I can only afford 300,000 mintcoins, but I am guaranteed to be able to stake with that amount, then it might be worth it to go with Mintcoin, rather than go with some other coin where I cannot get in on the staking reward.

But as Mintcoin scales, so does the security... Smiley

Say the price rises to where 1 Mintcoin = $1 USD

Then that same 16-million mintcoins needed for an attack ...costs $16,000,000 USD

The investor logic still carries... anyone who has $300,000 is still guaranteed to mint, but they would not be able to with a POS 2.0 coin of the same market-cap comparative to Mintcoin.


If you are following my reasoning here, hopefully you are beginning to see how POS 1.0 is a self balancing system. Yes, it may not be as secure as you want it to be "right now" for how much money you have "right now", but then, don't invest in it. If you feel it is too insecure, then you won't. You may just dip your toe into the market, and grab 300,000 coins because, at least you will be able to generate staking rewards and mint new coins indefinitely. It is all about determining your risk-reward ratio. The "Security Risk-Reward Ratio" is something built into every POS coin. Mintcoin has it's parameters, other coins have theirs. As user adoption increases, so does the security, or hypothetical "cost of attack". With enough adoption, Mintcoin could be more secure than any POS 2.0 coin. Maybe people have already tried to attack it and failed, so they decide to go Long MINT. Just sharing some possible insights and other ways to look at it.

Mintcoin promotes decentralized nodes. This may sound scary for those without the "control" over the network. But I think in the long run, a more decentralized method will win out in the end. People will get miffed if they can never get a successful staking. If many different people are able to mint coins, it will actually promote a greater variety of nodes in the long-term to be motivated to come online and connect to network. The opposite is what happens with POS 2.0 because if you never are able to stake, then what's the point of ever turning your wallet on at all? At least with Mintcoin, people are connecting to the network every 20 days or so, and successfully minting, and that is better than not connecting at all.

All I am saying is the whole topic is not so cut and dry, black and white. This is a massive grey area. This stuff is afterall and "experiment" lol. Personally, I choose Mintcoin because I believe in it long term. I believe it will last the test of time, and we can overcome any hurdles or challenges that may come. I like the parameters it has, and think it is the best combination of "fair" and "secure". Mintcoin allows for approximately 58,000 mintings every 20 days. THen the cycle starts over again.  That is a great distribution, vs., say, 8 hours * 60 minutes = 480 stakings (what you get with blackcoin?).

That is one of the main reasons I support Mintcoin, because I think it is a great coin to benefit the most amount of people. I mean I would venture to guess, that even Bitcoin miners are not even that will distributed accross 58,000 all consistently able to to count on getting a piece of a block every 20 days.

This is why I like Mintcoin, and am resistant to anyone proposing some change to it. Unless it is truely discovered that it's current design is broken, I see no reason to.
Blessings  Smiley

Absolutely , what you expressed in this long post makes good sense . Ballin' on that Mintcoin  Cool
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June 12, 2015, 05:33:23 PM
 #17894

POS 2.0 is very off putting by the sound of it, from what I have picked up from this thread, and of course I may be wrong, there is no way I would be able to stake - my client is open for most of the day, but importantly not ALL the day. It would prove utterly unviable and makes the coin seem, at least from my n00bish view very inaccessible.

I've been on this coin's wagon from pretty much the start and if it's such an unpalatable concept to me (a non-hardcore but dedicated minter) imagine how it looks from the outside, for people who cannot dedicate that kind of up-rig time to staking but who wish to get involved, it basically negates away one of this coin's major selling points.

If you can't stake then what value does Mint have to a user? I would certainly have very little incentive to open my wallet at all.

I'm not very au fait with the security risks that people feel that it would address, but surely there has to be a compromise point between making a coin seem so hard to get into and maintain that it puts people off and surely stymieing its potential growth and managing any inherent security considerations?
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June 12, 2015, 07:33:52 PM
 #17895

So come on own up who is killing Mintcoin on Cryptsy..... Huh
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June 13, 2015, 02:22:35 AM
 #17896

@coolbeans

Your whole argument is that people with small amount of coins can never stake. This is incorrect. With POS 2.0 staking becomes like solo mining, you are guaranteed a stake but it will take much longer if you have less coin. Also as you accumulate coin age by being online the longer it takes for you to stake, bigger the reward. Its just that it will be less frequent with small amount of coins. Also with POS 1.0 people arent securing the network but still getting the rewards. You get rewards for processing transactions & securing the network, that happens only when you are actively staking.

Also one of the argument for POS 2.0 was that those who are investing large sums of money to back the coin are trumped in staking by others who just come online  to collect reward but provide no service for 99% of the time. Although i am not at all for big investors so this is not something i am worried about.

For those who are worried about keeping their PC on all the time, people are running nodes & minting PCs on Raspberry PI like computers which could be a good investment if you stake more than one coin.

Another way around low staking % is to create dedicated staking group from community members who create some reasonable weight say, 20-30% all the time during the 20 day staking cycle. This might not seem like a problem right now as we are in our infancy but if MINT goes big people will have incentive to fork the network.

Fluttercoin created a good scheme by paying people to keep their wallets open via a bounty fund. That is another way to incentivize people to stake. Thanks for keeping the discussion going. Smiley

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June 13, 2015, 03:35:41 AM
 #17897

how many total coins are mintcoin has, i didn't find?
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June 13, 2015, 03:48:38 AM
 #17898

Just to give you an idea of staking on POS 2.0, With just 0.0035% of total coin supply I staked 5(0.0165% of all blocks) times in last three weeks while whole network produced ~31000 blocks. I got 0.0024% of all new minted coins in that period. All these are approxiamte figures but you get the picture. It is still possible to stake competitively with POS 2.0. It is not detrimental to small stakeholders like me but it enhances security by discouraging rentseeking behavior.

There is one catch to this. I have no data on how many people were staking during this time but still this at least shows that staking with very small amount of coins is still possible. If we assume that only 20% of coins were staking still i have 0.0175% of coins which is very small portion and i am still staking successfully.

Also to encourage people to stake, some coins like vericoin & archcoin have interest rate tied to strength of staking weight on network. More people staking more interest everyone gets. There are many ways to solve this problem and IMO there is a problem if only 3% of people are staking at a time.

Regards

Sam Smiley

PS @Mhr3io
here you go https://chainz.cryptoid.info/mint/ Check the amount under "Outstanding", some 21.362 billion MINT.

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June 13, 2015, 11:58:05 AM
 #17899

Apologies if this has been mentioned somewhere but i have been out of the loop for a while.

I updated my mintcoin wallet from last year and it shows me the coins that were transferred to my wallet but my wallet is empty without any withdrawals?

Is there something i have to do to reactivate my coins?

I will have the wallet staking 24/7 once it recognises my coins.

Thanks in advance.

Andrew
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June 13, 2015, 12:20:56 PM
 #17900

Apologies if this has been mentioned somewhere but i have been out of the loop for a while.

I updated my mintcoin wallet from last year and it shows me the coins that were transferred to my wallet but my wallet is empty without any withdrawals?

Is there something i have to do to reactivate my coins?

I will have the wallet staking 24/7 once it recognises my coins.

Thanks in advance.

Andrew

Good Morning!

Is it syncing by any chance?
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