[ActiveMining] Official Shareholder Discussion Thread [Moderated]

[gjpminingco]

I think it's quite telling that Ken has mentioned not wanting to 'throw fuel on the fire' by carrying out actions that may appease some of the more insecure shareholders however would compromise the entire venture.

There are three shareholder points of issue here:

1)  initiate trading of shares
2)  pay dividends to established shareholder accounts
3)  verify shareholder accounts

I won't get into the nitty-gritty of the pros & cons of each of these and how perhaps #3, logically, is more palatable to the authorities, but I will say this;  the person holding the reigns has two choices.  Either play ball with the authorities or don't.  If Ken makes every effort, as he appears to be doing so, to work with the authorities then he has the greatest chance of making his business a success, and importantly, not being shut down by men with guns.   If, on the other hand, he chose (which he hasn't) to instigate any or all of the above listed actions due to shareholder pressure then, in my humble opinion, would most likely ruin it for everyone.

In summary, Ken is keeping schtum, paddling lightly and trying to prevent waves whilst also trying to form a bloody gigantic iceberg made from bitcoin.  Not an easy task when some of you are more inclined to invite Judge Judy onto the upper deck to air our dirty laundry I public.  Hey-Ho.

+10,000,000,000,000,000

[MilkyWayMasta]

I think it's quite telling that Ken has mentioned not wanting to 'throw fuel on the fire' by carrying out actions that may appease some of the more insecure shareholders however would compromise the entire venture.

There are three shareholder points of issue here:

1)  initiate trading of shares
2)  pay dividends to established shareholder accounts
3)  verify shareholder accounts

I won't get into the nitty-gritty of the pros & cons of each of these and how perhaps #3, logically, is more palatable to the authorities, but I will say this;  the person holding the reigns has two choices.  Either play ball with the authorities or don't.  If Ken makes every effort, as he appears to be doing so, to work with the authorities then he has the greatest chance of making his business a success, and importantly, not being shut down by men with guns.   If, on the other hand, he chose (which he hasn't) to instigate any or all of the above listed actions due to shareholder pressure then, in my humble opinion, would most likely ruin it for everyone.

In summary, Ken is keeping schtum, paddling lightly and trying to prevent waves whilst also trying to form a bloody gigantic iceberg made from bitcoin.  Not an easy task when some of you are more inclined to invite Judge Judy onto the upper deck to air our dirty laundry I public.  Hey-Ho.

+ 2^64

[finlof]

about the shares people own which can't be traded only .

You bitch!

Ooo..Did that burn !!
Exactly , i have been posting here for the same reason , even i got pissed , like you guys are .
Still agree though , its not a customers thread , so won't be posting here any more .

I have no problems with him (or any customer for that matter) posting his problems here because it seems that may be the only way to get results.  it is absolutely LUDICROUS that he had the troubles he did with receiving his paid for products.  I also had problems trying to order a product and feel lucky i never paid through bank wire because I cant be confident that I would have received it timely (or possibly at all).  you can almost train a monkey to ship a product.  there is no reason that in stock products (we were told these were ready for immediate shipment) shouldnt be shipped within a day of receiving payment.  i believe shareholders should know what is going on with the customers, because they are an integral part of the success of this company.

[drawingthesun]

Also, why is DTS making such a fuss over divs?  From mining there are probably 100 btc to split between 10,000,000 shares and at best 50% would get paid out and the other 50% reinvested.  I wouldn't imagine there are any divs getting paid out for hardware sales at this stage and would expect all off the profits be reinvested.  So for DTS's 114,000 shares he's probably due around 0.57 btc.  So, why the fuss DTS?  And for everyone else that's 0.05 btc for every 10,000 shares you own.

First it's not going to be a 50% split because half of the profits are being reinvested, Ken is making profits from hardware sales so this offsets some of the profits from the mining address.

If Ken makes $100,000 in sales in a month (200 bitcoin, 100 bitcoin profit, just for example) then we are owed 100% of the mining address as Ken has already made the 50% for reinvestment elsewhere.

Ken can't just take 50% from the mining address and 100% of the profits from hardware sales, then he would be getting 80% or something high like that.

Also 135 bitcoin per month = 1.35 bitcoin per month or 0.675 bitcoin per month for me.

I believe that bitcoin will reach $5,000 this year so that makes it about $100,000 a year in dividends. I would like that bitcoin in my wallet by the time $5,000 bitcoin comes around, not Ken's.

I can't afford to put more than $20 into bitcoin per week right now, so I really need that dividend. I also want to invest in things likes Ethereum, at the moment Ken is stealing all that opportunity from me and I am getting angry with him for that.

I am owed dividend, please pay it and stop stealing my future.

[elmwar]

Ken, I've been stressing the financial report but there is another issue.  This is the issue of verifying/trading shares due to the Missouri Securities Division investigation.  We've all heard your hands are tied as far as helping investors exchange stock or even receive dividends.  But there are misunderstandings amongst investors.  Some inexperienced people are actually confusing two very different issues.  For some reason they believe the "financials" are part of the "securities" investigation.  I've reviewed your postings and of course you never even hinted at a connection.  As a matter of fact, several times you mentioned posting a full "financial" report while the "securities" investigation progressed.  You've clearly stated there is no connection, however people confuse things to fit their needs.

While screen shots of account balances hardly qualify as audited information, you've already been instructed to block out the account numbers.  These posting are simply a good faith effort until the audited report is available.  There is no investigation on this matter.  Even if there were an investigation, there would be zero risk.  It's the investors account.  They have every right to the information.  You must provide it.

Congratulations on the amazing support shown by some investors.  You have people stating how well you've followed authorities instruction on the MSD investigation and lawyers advice.  All this without showing any evidence at all.  It's almost like people are making stuff up to support you.  But that's good.  I'm glad a lot of people trust you.  I personally believe in the idea "trust, but verify".  That method takes away doubt and risk.  If you show all the facts, there can be no doubt.  Lack of transparency is the most transparent (and risky).

In addition to your posting of account balance information, something is needed to addressed regarding the "securities" issue. 
Post a scan of your lawyer's instructions.  This will clear up the questions why investors can not trade, why their shares can not be verified, why they can not receive dividends, and why your shares on crypto-trade can continue to be traded.

[tempestb]

Here's what I don't understand.  Common sense will tell you that the MSD investigators read this thread of messages and the other locked threads.  Ken has even stated this to be the case.

So what mystery is there?  They already know we were sold shares.  They know what the contract details.  The info is still on the net if you do a cursory search for it.  Plus it's all right here on Bitcointalk.  So what exactly are we trying to avoid by not trading shares?  The new shares are on CT.  Somehow those are ok because they happened before the investigation.  But here's the thing...  OUR SHARES HAPPENED BEFORE THE MSD INVESTIGATION TOO!  We just had Bitfunder go down.  Which the MSD knows about.  They read the threads.  They aren't a bunch of idiots.  This is what they do for a salary.  Conduct investigations...

It's like common sense gets lost here and people just accept that Ken has all their money and nobody asks for proof of the investigation or really digs into why he can't provide said proof.  He can tell us that the MSD reads this thread of messages, but he can't show us their written document that says the company is under investigation?  Guys, I live in the United States, that's not illegal or weird or anything to show people that.  It doesn't jeopardize anything or put anything at risk.  It's public.  It's the nature of these things that the info becomes public.  That's why when you go the MSD website, all the info is stored there for you to look at.  

People think that the MSD is not going to bother Ken if he moves transactions around in Colored Coins instead of an exchange.  Like that might be too far-out and complicated for the MSD to figure out what's going on.  It's silly.  Of course they can.  If there really is an investigation, they already know everything.

If you think, "Well maybe Ken told them that he's not doing it anymore."  Then what he'd be telling them is that he defrauded a bunch of people out of millions of dollars.  That would go over really well with them at the MSD.  "Oh, you're done ripping people off?  Ok, case closed."  Of course not!

So they know what is going on.  So what is to hide?  Nothing...  So either the investigation is B.S. or this is the worst attempt at trying to hide a publically funded investment ever.  

[elmwar]

tempestb,

I've instructed our ken to provide documents that directly address your concern.  He's been a little slow in the past.  Honestly, I'm getting concerned about the financials not being completed yet.  They were due federally 10 days ago.  If the IRS catches wind of any link to the Tea Party, I fear that's the end of ActM. 

Regarding the MSD investigation.  I can't disagree with anything you mentioned.  But fear not ... ken is on the case.  He will be posting documents from our lawyer on the issue.  This will explain the situation to all investors.  And don't doubt it'll happen.  After all, it's your money that's paying for his lawyer. 

[drawingthesun]

After all, it's your money that's paying for his lawyer. 

Exactly, Ken and family are probably on about 200 - 400 bitcoin a year and the lawyer will cost us another 400 bitcoin.

I'm afraid there is nothing left.

[Simon Templar]

Are you for real?  Seriously DTS, what's going on in your head??  One minute you demand payment from a company that is up against it in more ways than one.  The next you're shedding tears over the fact that there is likely no money anyway.  Not sure if trolling.  

Why not take a leaf from all the investors that have double the shares you do, or the investors that have fewer shares than you but invested much more money to get them and are maintaining their dignity through all of this?  You are a grown man and doing yourself and your prospects no favours by acting hard done by.  Next time you invest, keep it under 1 btc then your fellow investors can enjoy your input rather than these shenanigans.

Edit - it beggars belief that some people are now questioning there even being an MSD investigation.  I suppose this thread will at some point explore all eventualities.   "...and the product of various kinds and stages of thought disorder, such as paranoid disposition, ranging in severity to diagnosable mental illnesses. Similarly, socio-political origins may be discovered in the need of people to believe in event causation rather than suffer the insecurity of a random world and universe."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

I am owed dividend, please pay it and stop stealing my future.

No-one is stealing your future.  YOU gambled YOUR future on a horse that has never ran a race, let alone won one.  And now you demand results when it's lame and aren't prepared to consult a vet!  Get real.

[drawingthesun]

No-one is stealing your future.  YOU gambled YOUR future on a horse that has never ran a race, let alone won one.  And now you demand results when it's lame and aren't prepared to consult a vet!  Get real.

I demand what's in the dividend address or even half.

It might not be results, but if ActiveMining is making 70 bitcoin per month after the 50% cut, then I want my 0.7 bitcoin now, not in 2 years.

[Simon Templar]

Stop making such a fuss over the 250 bucks you are owed in dividends and put things into perspective DTS.

[drawingthesun]

Stop making such a fuss over the 250 bucks you are owed in dividends and put things into perspective DTS.

Perspective.

Lets see, would I rather $0 or $250 for my "$50,000 - $200,000" investment?

If you choose $0, you're Simon Templar.

If you choose $250, you're everybody else.

[Simon Templar]

Would you rather have $250 now and $0 later, or $0 now and $1,000,000 later?  You just aren't getting it.  I give up with you, I really do.

[drawingthesun]

Would you rather have $250 now and $0 later, or $0 now and $1,000,000 later?  You just aren't getting it.  I give up with you, I really do.

Lets examine what you're saying to me:

1 - $250 now == $0 later.

2 - $0 now == $1,000,000 (or even $50,000) later.

You're argument comes down to your belief that if Ken pays out the dividend, the MSD will come down hard on Ken and destroy ActiveMining leaving nothing later on.

Lets see, the MSD and/or Ken's lawyers are confident that minimal trading is allowed [CryptoTrade] but paying out a dividend is out of the question? Surely allowing new investors to buy into the company is much worse than paying out dividends to existing customers.

Your argument relies on the fact that it's ok to trade shares but it's not ok to pay out a dividend.

I disagree with your argument and believe that paying out a dividend is far safer than allowing continued trading.

[ActM Thread]

Please do not disrespect each other and resort to name calling.  Valuable points are lost when posts are deleted just because of one silly remark.

ActM Thread

[runam0k]

Surely allowing new investors to buy into the company is much worse than paying out dividends to existing customers.

This.  If the MSD investigation is serious/real enough to prevent divs being paid to existing shareholders, share trading should obviously be halted.  Has Ken's lawyer really advised him otherwise?  The legality of allowing some shares to trade while others are blocked is another question Ken clearly hasn't taken legal advice on.

[minerpart]

Please do not disrespect each other and resort to name calling.  Valuable points are lost when posts are deleted just because of one silly remark.

ActM Thread

I would also say don't post complete lies which have zero verifiable evidence and make out they are facts.

[drawingthesun]

Please do not disrespect each other and resort to name calling.  Valuable points are lost when posts are deleted just because of one silly remark.

ActM Thread

I would also say don't post complete lies which have zero verifiable evidence and make out they are facts.

I have PM'd you the source. I have not lied.

[minerpart]

I have PM'd you the source. I have not lied.

The source is a link to a post of Ken's??? Are you for real? This is what you pm'd me, a link to this forum, as if it's some sort of 'evidence'?!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=252531.6380

A CEO freely admitting he is buying/has bought shares is NOT illegal.

You said he was 'manipulating' the market - that IS illegal.
But you have ZERO evidence of him manipulating the market. ZERO. Buying shares for his own portfolio is neither illegal nor is it manipulation of the market.
The price chart of ACtM shows NO signs of price manipulation to my experienced eyes. I can recall NO accusations of price manipulation (other than from Trolls) in this or previous threads. I can not recall ever thinking that ACtM price was behaving other than how you would expect.

Second to that, LIEN IS LEGAL.

Get some EDUCATION and save us from your lies and NONSENSE buddy.

[knybe]

Surely allowing new investors to buy into the company is much worse than paying out dividends to existing customers.

This.  If the MSD investigation is serious/real enough to prevent divs being paid to existing shareholders, share trading should obviously be halted.  Has Ken's lawyer really advised him otherwise?  The legality of allowing some shares to trade while others are blocked is another question Ken clearly hasn't taken legal advice on.

surely I'm allowed my opinion to call BS on any alleged instigation (haven't seen any proof!)… Otherwise why would trading still be on going? Also, why are other companies trading without harassment?