Bitcoin Savings and Trust | Home | Closed

[Sukrim]

the whale manipulations and walls we see on mtgox for past several months i think can be attributed to pirate's business, if not directly by him then by those to whom he brokers bitcoins - those who massively invest in btc through pirate at high premiums most certainly like to see returns on their investments.

Post deposit transactions to BTCS&T and trace them to MtGox or !

Seriously, why all this speculation?

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[miscreanity]

I see walls of text, but no argument -- what does this have to do with Pirateat40 giving away free money?

Then perhaps you still have blinders on; reread what was written and sleep on it. Would Marie Antoinette have favored her head over lavish parties if she knew what the consequences of her behavior would be?

Let's see if I can make this even easier in just four words:

Reputation cannot be bought.

[rjk]

Those that accuse of a ponzi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ&feature=related

Those that have already made their investment back from the payouts: "LOL"

[Mageant]

OK, I have checked where the funds go from my deposit address and I can report that the funds in the next step mostly go to addresses that are used heavily with large volumes.

These large addresses have something like a hundred or so transactions (one big one had many thousands transactions) with a total BTC volume in the many thousands (the big one even had a few million).

This pattern would seem to be inconsistent with a ponzi scheme because in that case he would be passing on the funds to individual account holders who typically do not use BTC in that way. He could of course try to mask that by concentrating his funds in a few addresses first before passing them on. But that also not what he is doing, because some of the funds are indeed passed directly on to little-used addresses.

Also, the BTC volume of the "big one" speaks for this being a proper operation. In the case of a ponzi it would only be possible to get that volume if Pirate were deliberately making it that way by sending BTC to himself. By just passing the deposits through to the withdrawals like in a ponzi he would not get that volume.

IMHO this pattern is consistent with what Pirate has said he is doing.

[Sukrim]

OK, I have checked where the funds go from my deposit address and I can report that the funds in the next step mostly go to addresses that are used heavily with large amounts.

Post address or PM please...

I won't go as far as calling you a sock puppet, but I'd love to do this research on my own and not just take your word for it.

Edit:
The "big one" could have been one from MtGox for example.

[Vandroiy]

(... fancy distracting words about Marie Antoinette ...)

Reputation cannot be bought.

Eeeeyup. Unfortunately, a herd of kinky investors who have money claims on you don't pay as reputation, especially if it looks like you're orchestrating a Ponzi.

I sometimes wonder, are you paid by post or something? I still see no real argument, just more esoteric text and an increasing post count for the two of us.


Maegent: I don't know of any pattern in the block chain that hinders one to transfer the coins in it to gox. Well, you could send to invalid addresses, but that wouldn't make people any happier, now would it?

[hazek]

Already discussed and defended ad nauseum: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=82849.msg916286#msg916286

would you rather make 10.65% a week but have some risk of losing your capital if bitcoin fails OR would rather make only 4.67% a week using someone else's capital and have pretty much no risk whatsoever. I think pirate would be stupid to risk his own money.

Do you really want me to do that math for you?

Okay. Whatever. Difference in yields there is 5.98%. Amortization time of risking own money: 12 weeks. However, Pirateat40 pays 7%, so it's shorter even! Bitcoin has survived trading for decent amounts for over a year now, so the decision to use other people's money is a massive loss for him already. In fact, a factor 5.7 using these understated client yields.

Plus, just investing the earnings from the current scheme now and kicking people out would not risk a bitcent of his starting capital!

This is a joke. Next argument, please?

following thoughts come with an assumption that pirate's business is not a ponzi for argument's sake

i figure pirate doesn't have a luxury to keep all the profits for himself otherwise it would be poorly reflected on overall bitcoin economy, he would acquire massive amount of bitcoins but since no one else making such great returns bitcoin demand and price could potentially significantly degrade which could lead to his business drying up as well. by distributing wealth throughout his lenders he ensures bitcoin economy keeps floating and therefore bitcoin demand and attractiveness continues to stay on level and increase.

  BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA  YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS    Did you hear people? He's giving up profit for the greater good of Bitcoin. Man how deluded can some get.. 

[Mageant]

The "big one" could have been one from MtGox for example.

OK, that is probably a MtGox-address, judging from the amounts and how often they come in.

Nevertheless the total BTC volume of the other large addresses would be in the hundreds of thousands and would likely exceed the total number of deposits at BTCST especially considering that they aren't that old. And they are all immediately following, ie. next step, addresses.

[miscreanity]

I sometimes wonder, are you paid by post or something? I still see no real argument, just more esoteric text and an increasing post count for the two of us.

You still don't get it. Instead, you try to cover up your immaturity with ad hominem ignorance. What you value is not necessarily the same as what others value.

Quit making antagonizing posts when those in the thread have a clear understanding of their participation risk. Go do something productive with your time rather than engaging in mental masturbation.

Ignore.

[fred0]

Has anyone lost money in this so-called ponzi?

I have been a lender since December 2011, pirateat40 has never missed a payment. I actually receive the payment every week, and then redeposit most/all of it back soon after receipt most of the time.

I haven't been very vocal in this forum, but I have a headache from reading most of these posts.

I don't think that calling pirateat40 a scammer is justified.  I was pretty vocal int the BFL posts, but eventually wore down. The BFL people were also called scammers, right up to the point that they delivered their product.  pirateat40 has also lived up to his word.

It seems to me that bitcoin people are just too smart for me.  I'll just continue with my BTCST account, and keep mining on my BFL hardware.

Cheers pirateat40, thanks for everything!

[hazek]

Quit making antagonizing posts when those in the thread have a clear understanding of their participation risk. Go do something productive with your time rather than engaging in mental masturbation.

Ignore.

We covered this. We're not necessarily trying to convince you but rather the unsuspecting naive latecomer in hopes to prevent more people to lose money when the scam does eventually go bust and hopefully if we ward off all of them, sooner rather than later.

[Vandroiy]

miscreanity, that is just a chain of insults without even trying to discuss. I may be acting arrogant, but I post an exact question, and I will not let go of it until it's either answered or I rub in that it cannot be answered.

We're pages into the latter. Still no explanation, still it looks like Pirateat40's decision is a massive loss for him unless it is a Ponzi. Still nothing on the need for insanely large individual accounts to get the 7% yield.

Occam's Razor is calling here. The Ponzi explains what an endless flamewar couldn't. It's profitable, the selective yields limit withdrawals, the forced withdrawals have been controlling growth, and now we're in the phase to get as many deposits as possible.

Has anyone lost money in this so-called ponzi?

I have been a lender since December 2011, pirateat40 has never missed a payment. I actually receive the payment every week, and then redeposit most/all of it back soon after receipt most of the time.

This has "I am a Ponzi scheme victim" written all over it. Ponzi never failed to pay until one moment, from which he never paid again. The same goes for MMM-2011 and all the others. One important reason why it works is that people re-invest too much.

[pirateat40]

We're pages into the latter. Still no explanation, still it looks like Pirateat40's decision is a massive loss for him unless it is a Ponzi. Still nothing on the need for insanely large individual accounts to get the 7% yield.

Vandroiy,

You want me to tell you how I run my business?  That's your end result, right?  You don't care what happens, I tell you what it is and you'd ruin it for my lenders or I don't tell and you keep up the never ending slander.

We got the message, you've warned everyone.  I'll be sure to post that "YOU WERE RIGHT" when things come crashing down.

[fred0]

Has anyone lost money in this so-called ponzi?

I have been a lender since December 2011, pirateat40 has never missed a payment. I actually receive the payment every week, and then redeposit most/all of it back soon after receipt most of the time.

This has "I am a Ponzi scheme victim" written all over it. Ponzi never failed to pay until one moment, from which he never paid again. The same goes for MMM-2011 and all the others. One important reason why it works is that people re-invest too much.

I think that one of the signals of a ponzi is cashflow(bitcoin-flow) problems.  Since I have only reinvested after receiving the bitcoin, bitcoin-flow doesn't appear to be a factor. In addition, people getting mandatory withdraws could never happen in a ponzi, since money is always needed to fund the ponzi.

[imsaguy]

Don't most ponzis restrict withdrawals?  If we are in the 'get as many deposits as possible phase', I'm sure we would have had a "You may only withdraw x% of your deposits at one time" or some such.  Instead, a person can cash out almost immediately.  I've never had to wait for things any time I have requested a withdrawal.

[hazek]

We're pages into the latter. Still no explanation, still it looks like Pirateat40's decision is a massive loss for him unless it is a Ponzi. Still nothing on the need for insanely large individual accounts to get the 7% yield.

Vandroiy,

You want me to tell you how I run my business?  That's your end result, right?  You don't care what happens, I tell you what it is and you'd ruin it for my lenders or I don't tell and you keep up the never ending slander.

We got the message, you've warned everyone.  I'll be sure to post that "YOU WERE RIGHT" when things come crashing down.

No no... no! We're not stopping, we're going to keep repeating the same red flags until you can't find anyone new to "invest" with you before answering some crucial questions. You see, we're not exposing you so those who already take in to their account the very high risk that you are a fraud before they "invest" with you, no no, we are trying to save those unsuspecting naive people without which, if you are the fraud that we think you are, you're going to go bust ASAP.

[hazek]

Has anyone lost money in this so-called ponzi?

I have been a lender since December 2011, pirateat40 has never missed a payment. I actually receive the payment every week, and then redeposit most/all of it back soon after receipt most of the time.

This has "I am a Ponzi scheme victim" written all over it. Ponzi never failed to pay until one moment, from which he never paid again. The same goes for MMM-2011 and all the others. One important reason why it works is that people re-invest too much.

I think that one of the signals of a ponzi is cashflow(bitcoin-flow) problems.  Since I have only reinvested after receiving the bitcoin, bitcoin-flow doesn't appear to be a factor. In addition, people getting mandatory withdraws could never happen in a ponzi, since money is always needed to fund the ponzi.

Have you read?: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91214.0 

[pirateat40]

We're pages into the latter. Still no explanation, still it looks like Pirateat40's decision is a massive loss for him unless it is a Ponzi. Still nothing on the need for insanely large individual accounts to get the 7% yield.

Vandroiy,

You want me to tell you how I run my business?  That's your end result, right?  You don't care what happens, I tell you what it is and you'd ruin it for my lenders or I don't tell and you keep up the never ending slander.

We got the message, you've warned everyone.  I'll be sure to post that "YOU WERE RIGHT" when things come crashing down.

No no... no! We're not stopping, we're going to keep repeating the same red flags until you can't find anyone new to "invest" with you before answering some crucial questions. You see, we're not exposing you so those who already take in to their account the very high risk that you are a fraud before they "invest" with you, no no, we are trying to save those unsuspecting naive people without which, if you are the fraud that we think you are, you're going to go bust ASAP.

Right because this forum are the center of the Bitcoin universe, right?  At this point, there's nothing you can do about it.  Keep trying though.

[miscreanity]

We covered this. We're not necessarily trying to convince you but rather the unsuspecting naive latecomer in hopes to prevent more people to lose money when the scam does eventually go bust and hopefully if we ward off all of them, sooner rather than later.

Why? Are you really so obsessive about Pirate, or do you actually want to bear latecomers' offspring?

Do you realize what the OP is? That's right - nothing to do with warnings about a Ponzi. By continuing to post here, you bump this thread to the top. Latecomers will see the thread title. How many will read through 69 pages only to come across the Ponzi posts and have an epiphany? What makes that your responsibility?

You'd be more effective at furthering your anti-Pirate cause by creating your own thread and bumping it regularly, or by finding employment at the RIAA, MPAA, US Congress, UK Parliament, or any number of do-gooder 'We know how to live your life better than you do' socialist organizations.

There have been some very good posts that you've made elsewhere; this fanatical desire to tilt at windmills is truly beneath you and insulting to your intelligence. Nobody wins from this scorched earth method. Stop it and go find a cause that's worthwhile.

[hazek]

We covered this. We're not necessarily trying to convince you but rather the unsuspecting naive latecomer in hopes to prevent more people to lose money when the scam does eventually go bust and hopefully if we ward off all of them, sooner rather than later.

Why? Are you really so obsessive about Pirate, or do you actually want to bear latecomers' offspring?

Surely it must be that and not that I wouldn't want people to lose money and endlessly suffer right?