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 Author Topic: 🔥🔥🔥 BC.GAME - CASINO AND SPORTSBOOK | \$1,000 GIVEAWAY LIVE! 🔥🔥🔥  (Read 61166 times)
BC.GAME (OP)
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 January 09, 2019, 08:01:06 AM

Dear RHavar,
Thanks so much for your big reply. It’s our great honor to talk with the code creator of Bustabit. Hats off to this great game which create a new level for gambling in blockchain world. We couldn’t be more welcome any player to share some insightful idea like you and such constructive discussion is definitely helping us to generate even better idea.

Since our analysis is based on the idea of a random seed. Here is our point.

1.   There is no manipulation on our seed picking. We believe that “the longer the game runs, the less the statistical difference.” Here is our data, anyone can run a test on it.

https://github.com/BCSNProject/HashCheck
https://bcsnproject.github.io/HashCheck/#/simple

Quote
Chain A: seed=680597CDC84B239A1C0475C89E0CC5380B1DDF367772C8F3055742C6ACB2C3FF
Result: 4.63, 2.36, 1.22, 2.225, 2.56

Chain B: seed=6AA9D8D8BD428C4277F613E74AC1AAE2A81EAF7DAF24C4D459FA030AA63C03D5
Result: 1.04, 1.00, 1.07, 1.28, 1.02

Chain C: seed=60CC3C97D3C80396437AF43F3AAC84A460EF2EBA88E79C2D4AC1218DD1923002
Result: 1.76, 2.43, 15.27, 3.55, 1.09

Now from this, we can *clearly* see that  B would be the best for the house. Of course the longer the game runs, the less the statistical differences are -- but for the few *years* of games, the house edge can easily have been manipulated to 2x what they should be. The cheating can easily be done with an algorithm:

As a developer, I feel necessary to share my view and doubts with you and about how we started this journey.

When we found out about Bustabit, we were wondering did they use any seed choice in version 1.0? We don’t think so, and that’s why we didn’t choose seed manipulation. You may wonder why, haha. To be honest, our seed was based on some randomly-generated memory words for ETH wallet because we were not sure how to do the seed choice favorable to the house. Were we dumb then? And like what I said, it has been almost a year since our foundation, and we haven’t changed our seed once.

There were some challenges for sure. Our experience of 500 ETH lost in one day really raised doubts about whether any player knew about the seed choice. But:

a.   We didn’t refuse any withdrawal.
b.   We didn’t change our seed.
c.   Never try to cover the loss with seed manipulation.
d.   The player continued to play with his strategy and lost 400 ETH back.

Although we didn’t change our seed, we have started to think about why this could happen? We spend a lot of time making a data comparison between BG.Game and Bustabit, to figure out why our high x probability is higher than Bustabit with greater seed activity.

Anyone can do that from the following link:
https://github.com/BCSNProject/HashCheck

We even doubted that they do the seed manipulation but we couldn’t convince ourselves how and why.

Then we reach a conclusion and also brought us back to your advice. Will that make any difference if to use an additional seed.

Quote
“The best solution is to do what bustabit has done, use a *future* bitcoin-block hash as an additional seed (after committing to a single chain). This makes it impossible for you to run the "brute force" attack to pick a seed that is favorable to the house.”

We don’t believe that additional seed will affect the result to the player in the long term

Chain A
Seed     680597CDC84B239A1C0475C89E0CC5380B1DDF367772C8F3055742C6ACB2C3FF
Result   1.25, 1.79, 2.05, 1.26, 4.66

Result 1.85, 2.12, 6.33, 12.02, 1.14

Result 1.04, 3.09, 4.84, 6.08, 1.03

Chain B
Seed    6AA9D8D8BD428C4277F613E74AC1AAE2A81EAF7DAF24C4D459FA030AA63C03D5
Result  8.06, 17.61, 6.96, 1.14, 1.13

Result          1.37, 13.65, 2.49, 3.87, 1

Result            1.15, 5.5, 2.79, 2.28, 4.77

Chain C

Seed   60CC3C97D3C80396437AF43F3AAC84A460EF2EBA88E79C2D4AC1218DD1923002
Result 1.01, 8.28, 2.79, 5.13, 1.12

Result  4.38, 1.89, 2.54, 2.01, 1.5

Result  8.91, 1.57, 1.21, 1.74, 1.72

1.   From this, we agree that with an additional seed, the original seed has no impact on the result.
2.   Additional seed may also cause the condition favorable to the house like Chain C additional 2.
3.   The longer the game runs, the less the statistical difference.

But will additional seed helps solve the problem? Why do some platforms need seed manipulation? Because they need the game favorable to the house. What if additional seed just created a result with low x like Chain C additional 2? How can we make sure it won't?

So to sum up, we don’t think the additional seed is the solution and we are not and will be never use seed manipulation. Only math analysis and data comparison can tell you whether you are using a good one. Not saying we are 100% right, corrections are welcomed.

We are trying our best to help players increasing their experience, such as referral, investment, refund. Reputation and services are both important if we don’t want to be just a “few years” game. We are far from perfect yet but we have great model to learn from, like Bustabit.

We are all growing through open discussion and continuous improvement. Thanks again for all who contributes your idea.

BC.GAME (OP)
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 January 09, 2019, 08:08:12 AM

Just to add some nuance: it's not so much their method is unfair, it's just that it's not "provably fair". I actually doubt very much they've picked a bias hash chain, but we really have no way of knowing (hence not provably fair).

Yeah and... Honestly I find it dubious how they're pushing you on the invest part.

Lots of casino have the option to invest of course. But here there is more advertisement for the investment than for the games itself.

I don't believe it's safe to invest somewhere without any reputation, asking you so much about your money.
Don't play dumb.

Haha, we are a game platform, and investment is just one of our option. It's totally up to you. It's like a restaurant serving beef and pork, if you just want pork, we can not force you to eat beef, but it's our right to provide it. We know we need to build a reputation and it's totally understandable you have doubt and question. We are working on it. Thanks for your attention.

RHavar
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 January 09, 2019, 10:48:38 PMMerited by dbshck (4), NLNico (3)

1.   There is no manipulation on our seed picking.

I believe you, but we have no way to know that. Which is my entire point =)

Quote
When we found out about Bustabit, we were wondering did they use any seed choice in version 1.0? We don’t think so, and that’s why we didn’t choose seed manipulation. You may wonder why, haha.

I think you are misremembering. The very first iteration of bustabit was released in a way that wasn't provably fair at all. Then Dooglus (from this forum) suggested the idea of the hash-chain (the exact thing you are doing), but then espringe realized that wasn't provably fair either and came up with the block-chain hash modification -- which is what actually makes bustabit provably fair. Bustabit has been using this same concept for several years now, including in the "v1" of it.

Quote
And like what I said, it has been almost a year since our foundation, and we haven’t changed our seed once.

While this makes it less likely you're cheating, it doesn't offer players any concrete assurances. You very well could've searched for a seed the resulted in specific patterns (e.g. good games at the start, and the next year lower-than-expected). We simply have no idea.

Just to be clear: I'm not accusing you of cheating. It's just that we have no idea. Which is the antithesis of provably fair.

Quote
We don’t believe that additional seed will affect the result to the player in the long term

If you chose a seed fairly, then it'll mean there is no difference. But what it does is prevent you picking an unfair seed.

Quote
So to sum up, we don’t think the additional seed is the solution and we are not and will be never use seed manipulation. Only math analysis and data comparison can tell you whether you are using a good one. Not saying we are 100% right, corrections are welcomed.

I think there's a language barrier, and you're not understanding the problem. Let's try simplify this. Let's imagine your system is only going to play 10 rounds:

Do you think your system is "provably fair"? Well, no, it's obviously not. Because it's *trivial* to by-hand find a seed that gives super bad results. You just trial-and-error create a few seeds and see the results.

But what about bustabit's scheme? Would that fair for 10 rounds? Yes! Because they commit to a *particular* hash-chain before knowing if it's good or bad. So this makes trial and error impossible.

So now let's go back to your system: We have no idea how much "trial and error" you did to generate your seed. As an example, you could've tried a billion seeds, and found one that had a giant red-streak in 2 years, to wipe out any martingaler. You could've found a seed such that a particular game will be a particular result. We literally have no idea.

So I think you'll agree: It's possible that under your scheme you picked a seed to achieve a particular result. And that it's impossible for us to ever tell if such manipulation happened.

My calculations show you could relatively easy ~double your expected profit over (any) year period of time, by brute-force checking a few million different seeds.

Check out gamblingsitefinder.com for a decent list/rankings of crypto casinos. Note: I have no affiliation or interest in it, and don't even agree with all the rankings ... but it's the only uncorrupted review site I'm aware of.
BC.GAME (OP)
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 January 15, 2019, 06:16:39 AM

To sum up what you said:
1. You are not saying we are cheating
2. There is a possibility for seed manipulation
3. Our scheme gives users no way to prove whether we are fair.

Quote
I believe you, but we have no way to know that. Which is my entire point =)

Thanks for believing us. Such discussion is valuable advice to us and we really appreciate. Though we are not seasoned in blockchain game world, and many things and methods are in the process of exploration for us, seed manipulation is never an option for BC.Game. That's why we are so confident to ask users to prove any unfairness, we are so sure they can't, which you can tell from historical data on Github that we didn't double the expected profit.

But, based on what we discussed, which brings another question for us to think, users can't prove we are unfair while they can't prove we are fair either. We could have doubled our expected profit, which we didn't. It's just what we have now is not very convincing on impossible manipulation. We start to think about using server seed+additional seed. Since we never change our seed once, maybe our plan is to use EOS+BTS hash as an additional seed with our server seed starting from any result of the game. Before we make any decision, there is still something to think about.

RHavar
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 January 18, 2019, 04:02:17 PM

To sum up what you said:
1. You are not saying we are cheating
2. There is a possibility for seed manipulation
3. Our scheme gives users no way to prove whether we are fair.

Correct =)

Quote
But, based on what we discussed, which brings another question for us to think, users can't prove we are unfair while they can't prove we are fair either.

Correct. But this the same situation as just using a random number generator (which is still unfortunately somewhat of a standard). It's impossible for the player to tell if they were cheated, or not cheated. While if I played at a site with a proper provably fair system, like PrimeDice or Bustabit -- I could actually check if I was cheated or not. And that's the whole point of the scheme =)

Check out gamblingsitefinder.com for a decent list/rankings of crypto casinos. Note: I have no affiliation or interest in it, and don't even agree with all the rankings ... but it's the only uncorrupted review site I'm aware of.
BC.GAME (OP)
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 January 21, 2019, 04:12:59 AM

To sum up what you said:
1. You are not saying we are cheating
2. There is a possibility for seed manipulation
3. Our scheme gives users no way to prove whether we are fair.

Correct =)

Quote
But, based on what we discussed, which brings another question for us to think, users can't prove we are unfair while they can't prove we are fair either.

Correct. But this the same situation as just using a random number generator (which is still unfortunately somewhat of a standard). It's impossible for the player to tell if they were cheated, or not cheated. While if I played at a site with a proper provably fair system, like PrimeDice or Bustabit -- I could actually check if I was cheated or not. And that's the whole point of the scheme =)

Yes, and for our hashdice game, we already use server+client seed, please see https://bcsnproject.github.io/bcgame-roll/. We are trying more ways to be better. And if anyone is interested in working with us together or giving us advice, please send me a private message.

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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 January 27, 2019, 09:02:39 AM

Do you have bounty?
Bitcoinlover.nyk
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 January 28, 2019, 11:29:38 AM

How can i play game?Do you have any video guides?
BC.GAME (OP)
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 January 30, 2019, 08:30:09 AM

How can i play game?Do you have any video guides?

Yes, please check our website for video guides

BC.GAME (OP)
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 January 30, 2019, 08:30:57 AM

Do you have bounty?

Yes, of course

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COMM - A Scientific Publisher and Asset Manager

 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 January 31, 2019, 08:08:42 AM

It has successfully come over at the problem of geographical boundaries and has reached to everyone at any corner.

[ COMM ] An innovative payment network that endows knowledge with value.
https://cryptocommonwealth.co/
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 January 31, 2019, 10:17:04 AM

People are already very interested to it and we hope it will go far more towards success.
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 January 31, 2019, 11:01:58 AM

How do you avoid manipulating of any game setting?
Bitcoinlike.drug
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 January 31, 2019, 05:32:50 PM

How can i play game?Do you have any video guides?

Yes, please check our website for video guides
It makes much sense for crypto players and has already made its own place in the market.
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 February 02, 2019, 05:23:46 PM

It has been a revolutionary step and very reliable to us. Hope it will bring more new features.

Data✘chain | Blockchain Based Decentralized Data Trade Service
http://dataxchain.org/ico/main/
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 February 02, 2019, 06:40:02 PM

For crypto players it is the most sorted and fair platform, we really like it.

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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 February 02, 2019, 08:35:23 PM

How can I get rewarded?

██████████████  CARTESI 📱 LINUX INFRASTRUCTURE FOR SCALABLE DAPPS  ██████████████
https://cartesi.io/
BC.GAME (OP)
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 February 03, 2019, 03:20:46 PM

How can I get rewarded?

BC.GAME (OP)
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 February 03, 2019, 03:21:44 PM

It has been a revolutionary step and very reliable to us. Hope it will bring more new features.

Thanks, we will do our best.

BC.GAME (OP)
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 Re: 🚀 BC.Game 🎲 🂡🂫🎰🔥 Provably Fair (Found Unfair, Rewarding 100 ETH)💰💰 February 06, 2019, 12:49:59 PM

For crypto players it is the most sorted and fair platform, we really like it.

Thanks

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