Donetsk, Kharkov, Lugansk - way to Russia.

[Paya]

what the hell are you talking about?

I'm not sure I heard of any larger Croatian paramilitary unit, are you sure you didn't mix up nations?

Croatian National Guard (ZNG), later part of Croatian Defence Forces (HOS) were both paramilitary formations because in the time they've been formed only Constitutionally established and legal military force in Yugoslavia was Yugoslav People's Army (JNA). There has been much more (at least dozen) other small paramilitary Croatian units but these two were major. Croatian self-declared independence was then pushed against the Statute of Yugoslavia, thus illegal. But as Bryant said, unlike Russian minority in Ukraine Croats enjoyed strong political, financial and logistic support from the western powers who, in pursuit of their own strategic goals in the Balkans, decided to break international law, ignore Charter of the UN and Yugoslavian territorial integrity and to recognize Croatian secession, sending Yugoslavia into the nightmare of civil war.

[Pero112]

what the hell are you talking about?

I'm not sure I heard of any larger Croatian paramilitary unit, are you sure you didn't mix up nations?

Croatian National Guard (ZNG), later part of Croatian Defence Forces (HOS) were both paramilitary formations because in the time they've been formed only Constitutionally established and legal military force in Yugoslavia was Yugoslav People's Army (JNA). There has been much more (at least dozen) other small paramilitary Croatian units but these two were major. Croatian self-declared independence was then pushed against the Statute of Yugoslavia, thus illegal. But as Bryant said, unlike Russian minority in Ukraine Croats enjoyed strong political, financial and logistic support from the western powers who, in pursuit of their own strategic goals in the Balkans, decided to break international law, ignore Charter of the UN and Yugoslavian territorial integrity and to recognize Croatian secession, sending Yugoslavia into the nightmare of civil war.

they were paramilitary only 1 year, then they integrated themselves into HV (Hrvatska vojska, Croatian Army)

0 HOS members have been convicted for war crimes

what crimes are you talking about?

But as Bryant said, unlike Russian minority in Ukraine Croats enjoyed strong political, financial and logistic support from the western powers who, in pursuit of their own strategic goals in the Balkans, decided to break international law

that is very not true for a couple of reasons

western forces never wanted to break up Yugoslavia, they wanted a strong nation between them and Russia, Yugoslavia was succesfully distancing themselves from USSR and as the leading force of the "3rd block" no one wanted to break it up, that is why I dislike western countries, they wanted to preserve Yugoslavia no matter the cost for their own selfish reasons

when the war started the western countries prevented selling guns to any of the Balkan countries and therefore making clear who they wanted to win, which was of course well armed Yugoslav army
other countries had nothing, we had to use agricultural planes to throw gas cylinders on pinpointed locations..

most of the financial support came from the Croats which were forced to immigrate in the 2nd WW, still we had nothing at the beginning and the UN was preventing us to regain our territory

[bryant.coleman]

I'm not sure I heard of any larger Croatian paramilitary unit, are you sure you didn't mix up nations?

The International Criminal Court (ICC) has tried a number of Croats for war crimes during the Balkan wars, along with Serbs and Muslims. Even Franjo Tuđman is accused of war crimes in Bosnia and Krajina. All the three major ethnic groups committed massacres and other crimes during the war. You can't run away from the accusations.

[qosmio]

They forgot to put on trial Obomba and Bush for Uranium warheads and drone killing etc

[jolipenria]

    
"Donetsk, Kharkov, Lugansk"... russian language sounds bad as bad things they do

[Balthazar]

[Pero112]

I'm not sure I heard of any larger Croatian paramilitary unit, are you sure you didn't mix up nations?

The International Criminal Court (ICC) has tried a number of Croats for war crimes during the Balkan wars, along with Serbs and Muslims. Even Franjo Tuđman is accused of war crimes in Bosnia and Krajina. All the three major ethnic groups committed massacres and other crimes during the war. You can't run away from the accusations.

tried, only tried

Even Franjo Tuđman is accused of war crimes in Bosnia and Krajina

only accused

I can post videos if you want to where is clearly visible that Serbs organised themselves to flee the area when they found out that operation Storm has started
their soldiers in tanks ran over their own civilians in order to escape

in Bosnia

he was accused that he had pretensions on Bosnian territory which is true, we wanted to liberate Banja Luka from Serbian occupation but the Americans did not allow us to do so, they knew we would keep the territory

I personally find this all crap

He is also accused for pretension on the territory since he supported the Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia which Americans shut down in the Washington agreement

but I also find this crap

Croats settled in Bosnia&Herzegovina in the 7th century, we were 96% of the population there until the Turks came, even in the 2WW most of the muslims there issued themselves as Croats
almost all of them

and when Yugoslavia fell apart, we weren't able to claim the muslims for what they truly are..

somehow an unnecessary new nation has been created a new country that never existed before, 3 nations merged in 1 country

okay, I understand for Banja Luka
it has been our town in the past but now it has Serbian majority okay..

but you support Crimea, how come you don't support Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia?

Those are the territories where Croats are the majority, they would of been even larger if Serbs didn't chase out muslims from eastern bosnia which fled and then settled on our territories

I'm not a facist or anything, even tough we have historical claims on Bosnia&Herzegovina I only want the parst where we're the majority

Herzeg-Bosnia should have been Croatia, that is the main reason of accusing Franjo Tuđman for pretensions on Bosnia&Herzegovina..

altough Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia was not a country on it's own but only an entity (like the Serbian Republic in BiH today)

And even today I would die for Herzeg-Bosnia, it has been enough of oppression and centralisation from the Muslim society

[minime]

western forces never wanted to break up Yugoslavia,

this is incorrect...

[bryant.coleman]

but you support Crimea, how come you don't support Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia?

Those are the territories where Croats are the majority, they would of been even larger if Serbs didn't chase out muslims from eastern bosnia which fled and then settled on our territories

I'm not a facist or anything, even tough we have historical claims on Bosnia&Herzegovina I only want the parst where we're the majority

Herzeg-Bosnia should have been Croatia, that is the main reason of accusing Franjo Tuđman for pretensions on Bosnia&Herzegovina..

altough Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia was not a country on it's own but only an entity (like the Serbian Republic in BiH today)

And even today I would die for Herzeg-Bosnia, it has been enough of oppression and centralisation from the Muslim society

Who said that I don't support the Croat Republic? I want the quasi state of Bosnia to be split in to two. The Serbian majority areas should merge with Serbia and the Croat majority areas should merge with Croatia. The Muslims don't belong there and they can migrate to Turkey or Pakistan.

But that said, it was the Croats who decided in 1993 to form a federation with the Muslims.

[Paya]

what crimes are you talking about?

You said that you're not aware of any Croatian paramilitary, I showed you two major formations, and -apparently- we agreed on that. Don't forget that there were more, for example Croatian far right-wing Party of Rights had their own militia. So, while Yugoslav People's Army had constitutional obligation to defend the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Yugoslavia, looking from the point of international law ZNG and HOS were illegaly formed paramilitary units and thus everything they were doing, at least until the Sarajevo agreement had been implemented, was clearly illegal. It is not my intention to discuss war crimes. I could, of course, but let's leave body count and hypocrisy of both Croatian courts and the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia for some other topic.

western forces never wanted to break up Yugoslavia, they wanted a strong nation between them and Russia, Yugoslavia was succesfully distancing themselves from USSR and as the leading force of the "3rd block" no one wanted to break it up, that is why I dislike western countries, they wanted to preserve Yugoslavia no matter the cost for their own selfish reasons

That was true only until the fall of the Berlin wall and the destruction of Soviet union and Warsaw Pact. After that, western powers decided it's perfect time to destroy Yugoslavia and to produce whole bunch of small, weak countries in the Balkans which are easily manipulated. Separatist movements have been actively encouraged by the West both politically and logisticaly, and the territorial integrity of sovereign Yugoslavia, member of the UN, has been simply thrown down the drain. What is important here is to remember that they gave the rights of self-determination to all member nations of Yugoslavia - except the Serbs.

how come you don't support Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia?

As far as I know, Bosnian Serbs are not against the re-creation of Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia. How about you? Do you support their Republic of Srpska?

[Pero112]

but you support Crimea, how come you don't support Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia?

Those are the territories where Croats are the majority, they would of been even larger if Serbs didn't chase out muslims from eastern bosnia which fled and then settled on our territories

I'm not a facist or anything, even tough we have historical claims on Bosnia&Herzegovina I only want the parst where we're the majority

Herzeg-Bosnia should have been Croatia, that is the main reason of accusing Franjo Tuđman for pretensions on Bosnia&Herzegovina..

altough Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia was not a country on it's own but only an entity (like the Serbian Republic in BiH today)

And even today I would die for Herzeg-Bosnia, it has been enough of oppression and centralisation from the Muslim society

Who said that I don't support the Croat Republic? I want the quasi state of Bosnia to be split in to two. The Serbian majority areas should merge with Serbia and the Croat majority areas should merge with Croatia. The Muslims don't belong there and they can migrate to Turkey or Pakistan.

But that said, it was the Croats who decided in 1993 to form a federation with the Muslims.

that is true, but under some rules

we were played but their politicians, removed from all rights..

today by a recent poll over 80% of Croats want their own entity..

"representitive" of Croats get 0% of votes from Croatian territories and all the rest from Muslim territories as they pick who will represent us
Komšić is not a real Croat, only a sell-out

we don't get to pick our own representitives, get overvoted by the muslims and get robbed financialy (as a recent investigation says richest town of Herzeg-Bosnia Široki Brijeg gets only 5% back from everything they pay in taxes, even roads they build they hire Muslims to work on them), that is not what we agreed too
we expected equality, we did not get it..

one more thing about it..
some say it's a crime
but when Serbians invaded Ravno (Croatian village in Bosnia&Herzegovina), Alija Izetbegović (President of Bosnia&Herzegovina) stated I quote "This is not our war"
if he claims this is not their war then he admits Ravno is not a part of Bosnia&Herzegovina, how come we're accused for pretensions on our own territory?
what was there left for those people to do when BiH did not want to defend them but to organize their own defenses (HVO and the republic)

You said that you're not aware of any Croatian paramilitary, I showed you two major formations, and -apparently- we agreed on that. Don't forget that there were more, for example Croatian far right-wing Party of Rights had their own militia. So, while Yugoslav People's Army had constitutional obligation to defend the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Yugoslavia, looking from the point of international law ZNG and HOS were illegaly formed paramilitary units and thus everything they were doing, at least until the Sarajevo agreement had been implemented, was clearly illegal. It is not my intention to discuss war crimes. I could, of course, but let's leave body count and hypocrisy of both Croatian courts and the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia for some other topic.

by that logic all of our forces were paramilitary since you reckognize Yugoslavias claims on that territory
you cannot claim a territory simply because a constitution of one country says so

That was true only until the fall of the Berlin wall and the destruction of Soviet union and Warsaw Pact. After that, western powers decided it's perfect time to destroy Yugoslavia and to produce whole bunch of small, weak countries in the Balkans which are easily manipulated. Separatist movements have been actively encouraged by the West both politically and logisticaly, and the territorial integrity of sovereign Yugoslavia, member of the UN, has been simply thrown down the drain.

not true, for one example take Zvonko Bušić, if they wanted to break up Yugoslavia they wouldn't give him a life sentence
when Tito died so did Yugoslavia start dying

Serbian nationalists started rising, other nations did not like it, they did not want 1st Yugoslavia all over again, that is when Slovenia declared independence and other nations followed
Serbian attack was inspired by nationalist creation of Great Serbian not for maintaining Yugoslavia

What is important here is to remember that they gave the rights of self-determination to all member nations of Yugoslavia - except the Serbs.

no, they gave all socialist entities that existed in Yugoslavia the right to self-determination

those war Socialist Republic of Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia&Herzegovina.... etc.
they did not want to let countries form by historical rights or ethnic rights but only as those entities existed
therefore we have the smallest borders we had in times of peace in our entire history

while Serbians came with larger borders gaining whole Vojvodina
later on they lost Kosovo

As far as I know, Bosnian Serbs are not against the re-creation of Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia. How about you? Do you support their Republic of Srpska?

I completely support it, altough Bosanska Posavina should not be there

[bryant.coleman]

today by a recent poll over 80% of Croats want their own entity..

If you sit at your home watching stupid American propaganda films on your television, you will not get your entity. You need to organize protests, before Muslims (whose population is exploding) displaces you from your own territories. Tactically cooperating with the Srpskan authorities may not be a bad idea. Once you get your own entity, you can merge it with Croatia.

[Pero112]

today by a recent poll over 80% of Croats want their own entity..

If you sit at your home watching stupid American propaganda films on your television, you will not get your entity. You need to organize protests, before Muslims (whose population is exploding) displaces you from your own territories. Tactically cooperating with the Srpskan authorities may not be a bad idea. Once you get your own entity, you can merge it with Croatia.

that will most probably never happen, as king Alexander of  1st Yugoslavia responded to a question about independency requests from Croats "Croats are pacifists" , we will most likely not do anything

the problem is the world sees the Bosniaks as the only victims in the war, no one knows about the crimes they did
the world will probably take their side and that will harm the reputation of Republic of Croatia while the Croats from BiH will never want to do something that will harm RH..
while people from RH don't really care about Croats from BiH

liberalists own all the mass media here, that is the main problem we're in this situation today

[bryant.coleman]

In Europe as a whole, a delicate equilibrium exists between the Catholics and the Muslims. This is the case not only in Bosnia, but also in Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia.etc The prominent Catholic figures, including the Pope doesn't want to destroy the equilibrium by changing the status quo in Bosnia. This is not just a conspiracy theory.... I read it in an article in a reputed news source.

[chera]

I would say Donetsk and Lugansk - way to nowhere 

The whole situation is very unclear in those 2 regions. Some minority desires to join Russia there (not more than 30% according to different polls), another part of people is against Russia and against Kyiv (against everything I guess) Those who want to join Russia are backed by russian soldiers, who've actually invaded into neighbour state.

Those 2 regions are heavily subsidized, depressed regions, with out-of-date industry and terrible social sphere (crime level, fertility, life expectancy...). Ukraine spends on average ~ 5 billions USD per year to subsidize those 2 regions.

Taking all facts into account there are very big chances that Putin will not join those regions and has no real intentions to do this.

Speaking about the rest of Ukraine (including Kharkov), people are pretty united there and don't want to live in Russia. Just an example Kharkov football fans, yelling: "Putin XXXX" 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G6oezjfSsU

[Pero112]

In Europe as a whole, a delicate equilibrium exists between the Catholics and the Muslims. This is the case not only in Bosnia, but also in Kosovo, Albania, Macedonia.etc The prominent Catholic figures, including the Pope doesn't want to destroy the equilibrium by changing the status quo in Bosnia. This is not just a conspiracy theory.... I read it in an article in a reputed news source.

true but they don't see if the state doesn't change soon all Croats will be assimilated, Federation will become only Muslim

we have lost 20% of our population in 20 years, the numbers are getting worse..

when we say something about a third entity we get ridiculed and declared "separatists"

for example when Milan Bandić mentioned creation of a 3rd entity he lost his titule of an honorary citizen of Sarajevo

it's too sad but Croats from Bosnia&Herzegovina are on their own, they will most likely get no help from RH at least until the new elections..

[bryant.coleman]

I would say Donetsk and Lugansk - way to nowhere  

The whole situation is very unclear in those 2 regions. Some minority desires to join Russia there (not more than 30% according to different polls), another part of people is against Russia and against Kyiv (against everything I guess) Those who want to join Russia are backed by russian soldiers, who've actually invaded into neighbour state.

Those 2 regions are heavily subsidized, depressed regions, with out-of-date industry and terrible social sphere (crime level, fertility, life expectancy...). Ukraine spends on average ~ 5 billions USD per year to subsidize those 2 regions.

Taking all facts into account there are very big chances that Putin will not join those regions and has no real intentions to do this.

Speaking about the rest of Ukraine (including Kharkov), people are pretty united there and don't want to live in Russia. Just an example Kharkov football fans, yelling: "Putin XXXX"  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G6oezjfSsU

Normally I don't reply to 100% BS posts, but I will do it since this is your first post here.

1. It is not a minority. According to neutral polls, 60% to 80% want to join Russia.
2. No. There is no presence of any Russian soldiers there.
3. Subsidized? Can't stop laughing. Actually these two provinces produce the much needed coal and industrial output, which helps Kiev to subsidize the remaining provinces.

[Balthazar]

Subsidized east, yeah right  

It seems that Pagan has a new account   Well, new item has been added to ignore list.

[bryant.coleman]

It seems that Pagan has a new account   Well, new item has been added to ignore list.

Thanks for informing. I have added him to the ignore list.

true but they don't see if the state doesn't change soon all Croats will be assimilated, Federation will become only Muslim

Perhaps the 500,000 Croats living there are not strategically important.

I hate to say this, but demography is really important in the Balkans. The Serbs lost Kosovo due to their low birth rates. The Macedonians will soon lose half their country because of the same (half the children there are Muslims). The process is underway in Montenegro as well. I don't want to see the Croats getting defeated in a demographic Jihad. But what you just said (that you lost 20% of the population) makes me wonder about the future. 

[chera]

Subsidized east, yeah right  

It seems that Pagan has a new account   Well, new item has been added to ignore list.

http://www.investgazeta.net/img/st_img/Site_img/Zona%20Proedania.png

http://www.investgazeta.net/ekonomika/zona-proedanija-164683

Yes Donetsk and Lugansk regions are heavily subsidized.