ㅤ

[Kruw]

That's not at all how a coinjoin transaction works, coordinators do not have the ability to deanonymize the participants of a coinjoin even if they wanted to.

Except of course when Wasabi reuses address and combines mixed outputs with unmixed inputs...

Again, that's not at all how a coinjoin transaction works.  The coordinator does not choose the output addresses of the participants, the participants choose their own output addresses.

I buy my food in a local store that accepts Bitcoin as a means of payment. As my income comes from the signature campaign, my deposit address is public in this forum, and I don't want the owner of the store to know my virtual identity, I have been using Wasabi for a long time.

I understand that some people may be using this service for nefarious purposes, but we are returning to the eternal dilemma: is total control on the population worth to catch a few criminals? why don't they simply strengthen traditional methods to catch them and leave the other normal people in peace? because we have reached a point in the state of the art where global control is more efficient, I guess. But, doesn't this go against the inherent human rights? People is not aware of what can be done with their economical data.

For example, I am witnessing how supermarkets in my country are raising the prices of some products more than 50% in the last year, and this could not have been done without all the information they've collected thanks to their loyalty cards. By giving away our data we are giving not only Governments, but also big companies, an even greater advantage on the individuals, and the ability to do whatever they want with us. In an ideal world, this would be used for common benefit. But I don't think we live there.

Perfect real world use case for Wasabi    Merchants should not know the source of their customer's income, how much money they have leftover in their wallet, or where else that customer spends their money.

[Pmalek]

I buy my food in a local store that accepts Bitcoin as a means of payment. As my income comes from the signature campaign, my deposit address is public in this forum, and I don't want the owner of the store to know my virtual identity, I have been using Wasabi for a long time.

It would be interesting to know what kind of payment processor that store you shop at uses? I doubt they keep the crypto or self-host the service through BTCPay Server. Maybe one day those less trustworthy payment processors might consider employing a blockchain analysis company to inform them what coins are "dirty" and "tainted". It would be unfortunate if your BTC was confiscated and you had to do KYC for something like that because they decided that Wasabi is for criminals.     

You do want to hide something-- and that's okay. Privacy is exactly that; hiding information from entities you disapprove of. I don't understand why "trying to hide" is negatively interpreted.

Because they have given themselves the right to investigate everything and ask questions of everyone that's different. You know, to protect the people. If you disapprove, you are an enemy of the State that needs to be prosecuted. Or perhaps you are a terrorist, criminal, or child molester trying to hide his nasty habits. This is not me speaking, btw. 

[Porfirii]

I buy my food in a local store that accepts Bitcoin as a means of payment. As my income comes from the signature campaign, my deposit address is public in this forum, and I don't want the owner of the store to know my virtual identity, I have been using Wasabi for a long time.

For coinjoins, I suggest you look onto JoinMarket. It's decentralized, more flexible with coinjoin sizes, has better fee structure, and of course isn't prone to blacklisting certain outputs. If you can't stand of the terminal, there is a UI now, called Jam. I haven't tried it yet to see how easy it is to setup.

Thank you BlakHatCoiner, I will definitely take a look into it. It is a pity, I was really happy with Wasabi, but things move.

For example, I am witnessing how supermarkets in my country are raising the prices of some products more than 50% in the last year, and this could not have been done without all the information they've collected thanks to their loyalty cards.

Supermarkets have been raising prices due to inflation. I can't see how the fact that they might have collected personal information about their clients is related.

This is what news say, but inflation simply means that the prices have risen. It is a descriptive term, not causal:

In economics, inflation is an increase in the general price level of goods and services in an economy.

In my country, prices have risen (or we have a high inflation) due to many factors like the Ukrainian war, money printing, easy access to credit... and IMO outstanding profits from food supply chains and other commodities due to data analysis:

Some years ago, a professor in my University told us that, among other benefits of loyalty cards (apart from the obvious: sales increase due to "loyalty" benefits, targeted advertising, etc.), they were used to figure out the maximum price that people is willing to pay for each product. I have always thought about it like a really enormous scale A/B test somehow. Unfortunately, my professor didn't mention any source, I am not an expert on Big Data, and I have no proof that this is true, but it makes sense to me and this is what I believe. If anybody proves me wrong I will sleep much happier tonight .

I buy my food in a local store that accepts Bitcoin as a means of payment. As my income comes from the signature campaign, my deposit address is public in this forum, and I don't want the owner of the store to know my virtual identity, I have been using Wasabi for a long time.

It would be interesting to know what kind of payment processor that store you shop at uses? I doubt they keep the crypto or self-host the service through BTCPay Server. Maybe one day those less trustworthy payment processors might consider employing a blockchain analysis company to inform them what coins are "dirty" and "tainted". It would be unfortunate if your BTC was confiscated and you had to do KYC for something like that because they decided that Wasabi is for criminals.

In fact, AFAIK he keeps them: I buy in a little local store owned by another crypto enthusiast. I pay him P2P via LN using Wallet of Satoshi, and I think that I am the only customer who pays him this way. It is only that I don't want him to write my address on Google and see "Porfirii" as the only result, that's why I've been using Wasabi before sending the funds to my smartphone.

That's why I don't think my BTC could be confiscated but, if they were, I only send there little amounts from signature campaigns not linked to any other savings I hodl, and little would be lost.

[Pmalek]

In fact, AFAIK he keeps them: I buy in a little local store owned by another crypto enthusiast. I pay him P2P via LN using Wallet of Satoshi, and I think that I am the only customer who pays him this way.

In that case, it's ok. The two of you have a private deal where you pay with crypto and receive your groceries. I had something completely different in mind the first time I read your post. I thought It's one of those shops that accepts crypto payments on the counter, where they provide you with the address to pay. In most cases, such shops use a payment processor that converts the crypto assets into fiat upon receipt. Since you are sending to the owner from your private wallet to his, there is no fear of anyone asking any questions.

The only danger is if the coins go directly from you into a centralized exchange that might not like your use of Wasabi. But that's also not happening, so you are fine.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Again, that's not at all how a coinjoin transaction works.

I never said it was. I'm just pointing out that even without a coordinator which directly funds blockchain analysis, Wasabi is still useless.

Perfect real world use case for Wasabi

Perfect real world use for a good coinjoin implementation which is not pro-censorship and anti-fungibility.

If you can't stand of the terminal, there is a UI now, called Jam. I haven't tried it yet to see how easy it is to setup.

JoinMarket has had its own native GUI for several years. It's fairly no frills, but it does the job. https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/blob/master/docs/JOINMARKET-QT-GUIDE.md

The Jam interface does look cool, although I've not got round to trying it out myself yet.

[BlackHatCoiner]

they were used to figure out the maximum price that people is willing to pay for each product.

Yes, but... That's okay, isn't it? Isn't it good to know what's your customer's real demand?

Because they have given themselves the right to investigate everything and ask questions of everyone that's different.

This is why I'm such in favor of decentralization. It's the effective mean to say "fuck off" to those in power who make abuse of it. It's an effective mean to respond to politicians and ministers that "I do it better than you", in a regime where individuals must vote for representatives-- even if they want none. Decentralization, with privacy included, is like a natural, calm response to the chaos we've been all living in the last few years.

[Kruw]

Again, that's not at all how a coinjoin transaction works.

I never said it was. I'm just pointing out that even without a coordinator which directly funds blockchain analysis, Wasabi is still useless.

Wasabi isn't useless, it gives you privacy on your coins.  Verify this for yourself - here's a coinjoin transaction on the blockchain: https://mempool.space/tx/01a1a055719129397fb8344b5a09e6cfe72868c8e1d750e621d8b580c96bf77b

No matter how long you try, there is no way to determine which outputs are owned by which inputs.

Perfect real world use case for Wasabi

Perfect real world use for a good coinjoin implementation which is not pro-censorship and anti-fungibility.

Coinjoin implementations are not "pro censorship and anti fungibility".  Coinjoin implementations specify how to create the most privately sized outputs using inputs from multiple users.

[Porfirii]

they were used to figure out the maximum price that people is willing to pay for each product.

Yes, but... That's okay, isn't it? Isn't it good to know what's your customer's real demand?

It depends on one's ideology.

What is clear is that it supposes an imbalance in the negotiation power between the seller and the buyer. They didn't take into account (or they don't care) that maximising their profits would lead to a 15% of families in Spain to poverty. Basic products' price like oil and milk have officially risen over 33% compared to last year, and eggs  over 28% (and I think that these numbers are very conservative, as I recall buying eggs a year ago at 1.45€ and now they are at 2.15€). Average consumers pay these prices and it turns out profitable, but people who had difficulties to finish the month in black numbers can't scape this trap. Well, it is the same people who gave away their consumer behavioural data which is now being used against them, but up to what point is taking advantage of such ignorance ethical?

In a capitalist world, this is legal and even desirable, yes, but I can't help but ask myself whether, if we are discussing here about giving away our data (and power) to banks and governments, what is the difference with the food industry?

Sorry for the off-topic. This topic deserves his own thread, maybe in Politics & Society.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Wasabi isn't useless, it gives you privacy on your coins.

If our blockchain analysis buddies say you are allowed.

Coinjoin implementations are not "pro censorship and anti fungibility".

You can argue semantics all you like. The fact is that Wasabi and zkSNACKs are the same company, run by the same people, with the same Github pages. And given that zkSNACKs/Wasabi directly fund blockchain analysis companies and implement blacklisting, then by definition they are pro-censorship and therefore anti-fungibility. This is a direct attack on bitcoin itself.

Since you are a brand new account doing nothing but shilling Wasabi, I can only assume you are part of their team. Your time would be better spent figuring out how you can stop censoring people rather than on this forum trying to defend the indefensible.

[PrivacyG]

Wasabi isn't useless, it gives you privacy on your coins.  Verify this for yourself - here's a coinjoin transaction on the blockchain: https://mempool.space/tx/01a1a055719129397fb8344b5a09e6cfe72868c8e1d750e621d8b580c96bf77b

How does it give you Privacy if they only allow UTXO's they trust to enter the Coin Join process.  At that point, for what is worth,  they may only allow UTXO's Blockchain Analysis companies have been able to decypher and identify.  What about this.  The point of a Coin Join was to gain Privacy.  If you have say 20 UTXO's but you know who each of them is.  Now your list narrows to only 20 people.  Or, maybe even less.  Now Coin Joins are simply useless.  Maybe I can not tell who is who over there.  But if some body has this information and Wasabi applies censorship, using Wasabi makes no more sense.  I am not using Coin Join to obfuscate my transaction just from you and other readers of Bitcoin Talk.  I am using it to gain Privacy in front of every single person.

Of course this is just a theory.  But is it not viable?  Wasabi is pro censorship.  Coin Joins, not really.  Wasabi is.

Kind of weird how much you are shilling Wasabi insisting they are not bad and how your first post on Bitcoin Talk was about a Wasabi update.  Mind asking you if you have any links to them?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[Kruw]

Wasabi isn't useless, it gives you privacy on your coins.

If our blockchain analysis buddies say you are allowed.

Coinjoin implementations are not "pro censorship and anti fungibility".

You can argue semantics all you like. The fact is that Wasabi and zkSNACKs are the same company, run by the same people, with the same Github pages. And given that zkSNACKs/Wasabi directly fund blockchain analysis companies and implement blacklisting, then by definition they are pro-censorship and therefore anti-fungibility. This is a direct attack on bitcoin itself.

Since you are a brand new account doing nothing but shilling Wasabi, I can only assume you are part of their team. Your time would be better spent figuring out how you can stop censoring people rather than on this forum trying to defend the indefensible.

Wasabi Wallet is open source code, zkSNACKS is a company that runs a coordinator.  Your criticisms of a company's business practices don't apply the open source software at all.

Wasabi isn't useless, it gives you privacy on your coins.  Verify this for yourself - here's a coinjoin transaction on the blockchain: https://mempool.space/tx/01a1a055719129397fb8344b5a09e6cfe72868c8e1d750e621d8b580c96bf77b

How does it give you Privacy if they only allow UTXO's they trust to enter the Coin Join process.  At that point, for what is worth,  they may only allow UTXO's Blockchain Analysis companies have been able to decypher and identify.  What about this.  The point of a Coin Join was to gain Privacy.  If you have say 20 UTXO's but you know who each of them is.  Now your list narrows to only 20 people.  Or, maybe even less.  Now Coin Joins are simply useless.  Maybe I can not tell who is who over there.  But if some body has this information and Wasabi applies censorship, using Wasabi makes no more sense.  I am not using Coin Join to obfuscate my transaction just from you and other readers of Bitcoin Talk.  I am using it to gain Privacy in front of every single person.

Of course this is just a theory.  But is it not viable?  Wasabi is pro censorship.  Coin Joins, not really.  Wasabi is.

Kind of weird how much you are shilling Wasabi insisting they are not bad and how your first post on Bitcoin Talk was about a Wasabi update.  Mind asking you if you have any links to them?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

That's not how it works, you do not have to identify yourself to register a UTXO for coinjoin.  Each UTXO is registered under a single use Tor identity in Wasabi to preserve your privacy from everyone, including the coordinator and other round participants.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Each UTXO is registered under a single use Tor identity in Wasabi to preserve your privacy from everyone, including the coordinator and other round participants.

As if to de-anonymize someone you need their IP address...

[o_e_l_e_o]

Wasabi Wallet is open source code, zkSNACKS is a company that runs a coordinator.  Your criticisms of a company's business practices don't apply the open source software at all.

Yeah yeah, they are entirely separate entities...  



By using Wasabi, given there are no alternative non-censoring coordinators, you are directly funding blockchain analysis and paying for the privilege of being censored.

That's a hard pass from me, thanks.

[Pmalek]

That's not how it works, you do not have to identify yourself to register a UTXO for coinjoin.

Not by name and by holding up your identity card, that's true. But your coinjoins are sponsored by an unknown blockchain analysis partner. Why do you think that is? You think they are just there to observe and learn because they are writing a college paper on coinjoins? The anal... oh I am sorry, I don't know what came over me. I meant to say the blockchain analysis company helps to determine if your UTXOs are allowed or not. Therefore, my bitcoins are better than yours or the other way around.

[Kruw]

Each UTXO is registered under a single use Tor identity in Wasabi to preserve your privacy from everyone, including the coordinator and other round participants.

As if to de-anonymize someone you need their IP address...

This is vague, can you explain to me what your concern is, exactly?

Wasabi Wallet is open source code, zkSNACKS is a company that runs a coordinator.  Your criticisms of a company's business practices don't apply the open source software at all.

Yeah yeah, they are entirely separate entities...  

By using Wasabi, given there are no alternative non-censoring coordinators, you are directly funding blockchain analysis and paying for the privilege of being censored.

That's a hard pass from me, thanks.

Again, you are completely wrong:  You can use ANY coordinator with Wasabi Wallet, there is no requirement to use the zkSNACKS coordinator.

That's not how it works, you do not have to identify yourself to register a UTXO for coinjoin.

Not by name and by holding up your identity card, that's true. But your coinjoins are sponsored by an unknown blockchain analysis partner. Why do you think that is? You think they are just there to observe and learn because they are writing a college paper on coinjoins? The anal... oh I am sorry, I don't know what came over me. I meant to say the blockchain analysis company helps to determine if your UTXOs are allowed or not. Therefore, my bitcoins are better than yours or the other way around.

Anyone with a copy of the blockchain can analyze the chain, there is no information that Wasabi or any of its coinjoin coordinators can provide to a chain analysis company that chain analysis company's full node does not contain already.

A coordinator might *purchase* data from a chain analysis company, but a coordinator cannot *sell* data to a chain analysis company, because there's no data that coordinators can gather from Wasabi users.

[o_e_l_e_o]

This is vague, can you explain to me what your concern is, exactly?

That blockchain analysis companies buy datasets from data brokers which contain literally thousands of data points about a single person, and then use blockchain analysis in order to deanonymize your UTXO in any way they can and then directly link that UTXO to your identity. This is what you are directly funding.

Again, you are completely wrong:  You can use ANY coordinator with Wasabi Wallet, there is no requirement to use the zkSNACKS coordinator.

I already acknowledged you can use a different coordinator. But as I pointed out above and you ignored (please correct me if I'm wrong - I have no desire to download software which is going to spy on me to check), there are no alternative coordinators with any meaningful volume. And why would anyone waste time launching such a coordinator on software which links mixed outputs with toxic unmixed change outputs?

Everyone who is serious about privacy has already stopped using Wasabi.

[Kruw]

I already acknowledged you can use a different coordinator. But as I pointed out above and you ignored (please correct me if I'm wrong - I have no desire to download software which is going to spy on me to check),

You are, once again, completely wrong.  The software does not spy on you.  There is no data Wasabi or any of its coordinators can collect about its users, period.  When you launch the wallet, your IP address is protected by default with Tor and your wallet addresses are protected by default with client side block filters.

there are no alternative coordinators with any meaningful volume. And why would anyone waste time launching such a coordinator on software which links mixed outputs with toxic unmixed change outputs?

Everyone who is serious about privacy has already stopped using Wasabi.

Wasabi does not have "toxic unmixed change outputs", anyone can verify this for themselves by looking at the blockchain:  

Wasabi isn't useless, it gives you privacy on your coins.  Verify this for yourself - here's a coinjoin transaction on the blockchain: https://mempool.space/tx/01a1a055719129397fb8344b5a09e6cfe72868c8e1d750e621d8b580c96bf77b

No matter how long you try, there is no way to determine which outputs are owned by which inputs.

[BlackHatCoiner]

This is vague, can you explain to me what your concern is, exactly?

Chain analysis doesn't use IP addresses to de-anonymize Bitcoin users. It uses data coming from data brokers, as told by o_e_l_e_o, KYC-ed accounts, etc. An IP address doesn't tell much anyway.

You are, once again, completely wrong.  The software does not spy on you.

Does the software deny outputs if the chain analysis says so? Then, it's partnership with spies, unless you don't think chain analysis is a spying service. Do you feel comfortable with using a software that uses your CoinJoin fees to fund your own spying? And be called "the best privacy service" at the same time? I don't.

[bct_ail]

The use of Wasabi Wallet is alreade a thing of the past. But I would still like to know what will happen to my Bitcoins once Wasabi Wallet claimes the Bitcoins are dirty?

Has anyone experienced Bitcoins being blocked? From Wasabi Wallet or from an exchange?

[Wind_FURY]

Plus with WasabiWallet, what's the point of being a honey pot? They block transactions from "nefarious sources", and no user from the Darknet Markets, Ransomware Market, or holders of stolen outputs would be stupid to go tumble them through Wasabi.

Because we are now in a place where if we want privacy, we are surely trying to hide something. That's how the ruling classes look at those seeking privacy. Why can't you be more like the rest of the 99% of population that doesn't mind that we (your government) looks into everything you do? Since you are trying to break the history of your coins, we (the caring government) must keep an eye on you. We only do that as a fight against terrorism, money laundering, and because it's a national security issue, obviously.

I'm confused. Are you trying to say that Wasabi is a honey pot simply because it wants to follow its "law-abiding" users' transactions? Using that debate as the basis, but the government could also set up a mixer/tumbler of their own and follow both "bad" users and "law-abiding" users' transactions. Their attention would be to those who could act as a real threat against them, no?

Plus I believe Wasabi blocks transactions from nefarious sources as an accepted trade-off to avoid "mix-ups" with the government. They are rejecting a source of good revenue by blocking those transactions.