ㅤ

[Pmalek]

Are you then saying we should still mix/tumble the outputs?

It depends on what you want to to with those mixed coins in the future. If you never intend to deposit them into a centralized service that might set its own rules on what is clean and dirty or suspicious and not suspicious, don't do it because of the potential of your coins getting confiscated or you having to explain things to them. If you don't even go near CEXs and services that are pro censoring, do it.     

Isn't the original problem, "what if a user mixes his/her coins through WasabiWallet's CoinJoin, and the exchange still freezes his/her account because of the mere fact that he/she used a mixer"?

The whole point is that the imaginary green checkmark that blockchain analysis companies give you means absolutely nothing. It's made up nonsense that site A might respect, while sites B to F have completely other standards, and so on.

[Wind_FURY]

Are you then saying we should still mix/tumble the outputs?

It depends on what you want to to with those mixed coins in the future. If you never intend to deposit them into a centralized service that might set its own rules on what is clean and dirty or suspicious and not suspicious, don't do it because of the potential of your coins getting confiscated or you having to explain things to them. If you don't even go near CEXs and services that are pro censoring, do it.    

 I believe it would be better not to do anything with your UTXOs, if in case you'll be trading in a centralized exchange later, and if you need your privacy, you can always start using a mixer on the spot.

Isn't the original problem, "what if a user mixes his/her coins through WasabiWallet's CoinJoin, and the exchange still freezes his/her account because of the mere fact that he/she used a mixer"?

The whole point is that the imaginary green checkmark that blockchain analysis companies give you means absolutely nothing. It's made up nonsense that site A might respect, while sites B to F have completely other standards, and so on.

That would put plebs like us in a confusing situation = Safer not to do anything with your UTXOs until absolutely necessary.

[o_e_l_e_o]

As I have said many times when the topic of tainted bitcoin comes up: The correct response to some centralized service stating that your coins are tainted and they won't accept them is not to modify your behavior and sacrifice your privacy to acquiesce to the arbitrary demands of said service. Rather, it is to find a better service which does not enforce such absolute arbitrary nonsense. This applies equally to centralized exchanges as it does to Wasabi, both of which support mass surveillance, fund blockchain analysis, and arbitrarily refuse certain UTXOs based on secret criteria.

Here's an analogy:

I am a merchant. You want to buy some things from me. You try to pay with cash. I say "I cannot see the full history of this cash, so I refuse your money". So instead, you tap your debit card. I say "I cannot accept this money without knowing the full history of it". I demand access to your bank account so I can see where all your money comes from. You leave and come back with your bank statements, but I don't like what I see, so I refuse payment. You then try to pay with PayPal. I demand access to your PayPal account so I can see where all your money comes from. You unlock your PayPal account on your phone and hand it over for me to look at. This PayPal money looks OK to me, so I accept it. You then leave the shop and start telling all your friends "Make sure when you shop there you have all your bank statements with you so the merchant can look at them, and make sure none of your money comes from anywhere except your employer, since they can't trace those funds." Your friends all look at you like you are crazy, and then simply choose to shop with the merchant next door who doesn't do any of this nonsense.

Whenever this situation comes up, with the discussion of centralized exchanges and privacy, it always seems that the default position is "Sacrifice all your privacy and let people spy on you so that you can use a centralized exchange". In any other financial situation that would be seen as utterly crazy, as I've just shown above, but for some reason with bitcoin people just accept this nonsense? The problem here is not mixers, or coinjoins, or Monero, or any other privacy technique - the problem here is centralized exchanges. If you don't want a centralized exchange to seize your coins, then don't use a centralized exchange. There are plenty of decentralized exchanges to choose from.

The logical position when faced with entities which are stealing coins is not "I should bend over backwards and sacrifice everything to hopefully mean they don't steal my coins!", but rather to simply not use the entity which is stealing coins.

Most of the power of authoritarianism is freely given. In times like these, individuals think ahead about what a more repressive government will want, and then offer themselves without being asked.

[Wind_FURY]

As I have said many times when the topic of tainted bitcoin comes up: The correct response to some centralized service stating that your coins are tainted and they won't accept them is not to modify your behavior and sacrifice your privacy to acquiesce to the arbitrary demands of said service. Rather, it is to find a better service which does not enforce such absolute arbitrary nonsense. This applies equally to centralized exchanges as it does to Wasabi, both of which support mass surveillance, fund blockchain analysis, and arbitrarily refuse certain UTXOs based on secret criteria.

I'm on your side, but to play the Devil's Advocate, those "better services" are like sitting ducks. Sooner or later a S.W.A.T. team is telling them that their front door is about to break down. It's probably why services like WasabiWallet and some exchanges have accepted the trade-off to act in-accordance to government demands.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I'm on your side, but to play the Devil's Advocate, those "better services" are like sitting ducks. Sooner or later a S.W.A.T. team is telling them that their front door is about to break down. It's probably why services like WasabiWallet and some exchanges have accepted the trade-off to act in-accordance to government demands.

How do you propose law enforcement take down JoinMarket, which is software which is run on thousands and thousands of individual computers around the world, via Tor, and has no central coordinator? How do you propose they take down Bisq, which has the same set up?

The truly decentralized services are resistant to censorship in exactly the same way bitcoin itself is. A government could shutdown a centralized exchange or Wasabi's centralized coordinator, but they can't shutdown every Bisq trader or every JoinMarket user, just as they can't shutdown every bitcoin node.


On another note, and I am deliberately not going to link to any of the tweets, but in the last 48 hours there has been a bunch of Twitter drama due to Wasabi publicly doxxing their competitors.

Says it all really. The landing page of wasabiwallet.io says in big font right at the start "Privacy is your ability to selectively reveal yourself to the world". And then the Wasabi devs completely ignore that statement and start doxxing people who disagree with them. Imagine trying to pass yourself off as pro-privacy as you fund blockchain analysis and dox people you don't like? Absolutely despicable behavior, and should show everyone just where the priorities of Wasabi lie. They don't care in the slightest about your privacy.

Can't wait for our resident shill to come and tell us how doxxing people you don't like is actually fine.

[Pmalek]

As I have said many times when the topic of tainted bitcoin comes up: The correct response to some centralized service stating that your coins are tainted and they won't accept them is not to modify your behavior and sacrifice your privacy to acquiesce to the arbitrary demands of said service. Rather, it is to find a better service which does not enforce such absolute arbitrary nonsense.

The problem here is that if you use a centralized service which isn't as restrictive today, that can change tomorrow. And when it does, it can negatively impact a lot of people. For example, I have heard many people recommend ByBit as one of the best CEXs that don't request KYC right now. Sooner or later, that will change when they tighten the grip. History shows us that many have, and there is no reason to think ByBit will do things differently. 

The choices we have:
1. Use absolutely no CEX, today or tomorrow.
2. Use a CEX but never submit KYC, leaving the possibility of having your coins confiscated if you don't meet their terms. 
3. Use a no-KYC CEX and be willing to undergo identity verification and accept their demands when the time comes.

I think you will agree with me that the minority won't forget about the convenience of CEXs, and an even smaller number of users will just leave their money and not do everything the service demands to get it back. 

[Wind_FURY]

I'm on your side, but to play the Devil's Advocate, those "better services" are like sitting ducks. Sooner or later a S.W.A.T. team is telling them that their front door is about to break down. It's probably why services like WasabiWallet and some exchanges have accepted the trade-off to act in-accordance to government demands.

How do you propose law enforcement take down JoinMarket, which is software which is run on thousands and thousands of individual computers around the world, via Tor, and has no central coordinator? How do you propose they take down Bisq, which has the same set up?

The truly decentralized services are resistant to censorship in exactly the same way bitcoin itself is. A government could shutdown a centralized exchange or Wasabi's centralized coordinator, but they can't shutdown every Bisq trader or every JoinMarket user, just as they can't shutdown every bitcoin node.

They can't, but sometimes they don't have to. If they can't take it down they always turn to going after the user, or the developer.

I believe when using truly decentralized tools like JoinMarket and BISQ, the user must be extra careful because that's probably where most eyes of the government are looking. To the networks they can't take down.

On another note, and I am deliberately not going to link to any of the tweets, but in the last 48 hours there has been a bunch of Twitter drama due to Wasabi publicly doxxing their competitors.

Says it all really. The landing page of wasabiwallet.io says in big font right at the start "Privacy is your ability to selectively reveal yourself to the world". And then the Wasabi devs completely ignore that statement and start doxxing people who disagree with them. Imagine trying to pass yourself off as pro-privacy as you fund blockchain analysis and dox people you don't like? Absolutely despicable behavior, and should show everyone just where the priorities of Wasabi lie. They don't care in the slightest about your privacy.

Can't wait for our resident shill to come and tell us how doxxing people you don't like is actually fine.

Is it something with Samourai again?

[o_e_l_e_o]

Use absolutely no CEX, today or tomorrow.

This is obviously the best option, and it's never been easier. We have the biggest choice of DEXs we've ever had, we have the most volume on DEXs that we've ever had, and we have the most advanced DEX (Bisq) that we've ever had.

Is it something with Samourai again?

Of course, but it actually doesn't matter who it is. Doxxing anyone simply because they disagree with you is utterly scumbag behavior.

[BlackHatCoiner]

On another note, and I am deliberately not going to link to any of the tweets, but in the last 48 hours there has been a bunch of Twitter drama due to Wasabi publicly doxxing their competitors.

Yes, but however Samurai CEO himself gave an interview in Coindesk four years ago: https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2019/06/03/samourai-wallet-raises-first-funding-round-in-fight-against-bitcoin-surveillance/

The choices we have:
1. Use absolutely no CEX, today or tomorrow.
2. Use a CEX but never submit KYC, leaving the possibility of having your coins confiscated if you don't meet their terms.  
3. Use a no-KYC CEX and be willing to undergo identity verification and accept their demands when the time comes.

Hidden fourth option: Use a CEX that respects you as human being, and doesn't switch to KYC for easy bucks. The thing I don't like with DEX is that they're by definition more costly for the buyer and seller. A trusted third party, which respects both individuals, and charges minimum to zero is more desirable option for me. Of course, it's a central point of failure unfortunately. I'm referring to Robosats.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Yes, but however Samurai CEO himself gave an interview in Coindesk four years ago

Irrelevant. The individuals concerned do not want their identities shared. Previous mistakes in leaking private information do not give other people permission to share that information as widely as possible. If you had accidentally linked your forum name to your real life identity on some other site, you would be rightly very angry if I started plastering that information all over the forum.

As I said above, the landing page of wasabiwallet.io says "Privacy is your ability to selectively reveal yourself to the world". Sharing information about someone they do not wish to be shared violates this completely. It exposes Wasabi's complete hypocrisy and complete disregard for privacy.

Hidden fourth option: Use a CEX that respects you as human being, and doesn't switch to KYC for easy bucks.

Does such a thing exist? Any CEX will implement KYC in a heartbeat if failing to do so would affect their profits.

The thing I don't like with DEX is that they're by definition more costly for the buyer and seller.

Bisq fees are 0.5%/0.05% for taker/maker. Coinbase fees for trades under $10k are 0.6%/0.4% for taker/maker. And then Coinbase will hit you with fiat/bitcoin withdrawal fees too.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Irrelevant. The individuals concerned do not want their identities shared.

That's correct. I'm just not aware if the personal identity of Samurai's CEO is well known to the coinjoin-community.

If you had accidentally linked your forum name to your real life identity on some other site

The difference is that the CEO can't have accidentally linked his Internet identity with his real one. He very consciously decided to reveal himself upon an interview. I wouldn't refer to him with his real name if that's what he wanted, but if I were him, I'd consider myself doxxed already.  

Does such a thing exist? Any CEX will implement KYC in a heartbeat if failing to do so would affect their profits.

It exists, and it's called Robosats. I'm afraid that the worst thing that can happen to this, is to get shut down. Implementing KYC doesn't make sense as they're proud for being KYC free.

Bisq fees are 0.5%/0.05% for taker/maker. Coinbase fees for trades under $10k are 0.6%/0.4% for taker/maker. And then Coinbase will hit you with fiat/bitcoin withdrawal fees too.

Whereas in Robosats, you're going to pay a few sats for opening and closing a lightning channel with their node, and 0.175% / 0.025% if you're the taker / maker.

Bisq only charges 0.05% for makers? I was having the impression it was more like 1%. I must have been the taker then.

[o_e_l_e_o]

The difference is that the CEO can't have accidentally linked his Internet identity with his real one. He very consciously decided to reveal himself upon an interview.

There is a difference between being named in an article and having your name connected directly to a Twitter account and a PayNym. Also this: https://nitter.it/SamouraiWallet/status/1647936591417995264

Bisq only charges 0.05% for makers? I was having the impression it was more like 1%.

0.1% for makers if you pay in Bitcoin, 0.05% if you use BSQ.

[Pmalek]

Hidden fourth option: Use a CEX that respects you as human being, and doesn't switch to KYC for easy bucks.

That's like saying use a CEX that will never get hacked and will always be up and running. We can't possibly know what will happen in the future and who will implement what. If we consider the fact that too many people don't care about KYC on crypto exchanges, giving up custody, or paying high withdrawal fees, why should they respect you? The minority cares, while the majority agrees to everything. CEXs will just go with the flow and try to trick you that their way of doing it is the best.

I'm referring to Robosats.

It's not a traditional CEX in any sense. Plus the trades take place over the LN which might not be that appealing to many traders.

[BlackHatCoiner]

That's like saying use a CEX that will never get hacked and will always be up and running.

I'm by no means arguing that it won't shut down by either going bankrupt or getting hacked-- or just disappearing deliberately. I'm just saying that it's worth the price in my opinion. If you think it doesn't, fine, go with Bisq. But as long as there's a competitor in price, which respects me as individual, I think I'll just go with it.

If we consider the fact that too many people don't care about KYC on crypto exchanges, giving up custody, or paying high withdrawal fees, why should they respect you?

And when did I argue these people should respect me? I only said that the heads at Robosats respect each user, because they are very privacy friendly.

It's not a traditional CEX in any sense.

You will have to define me "traditional CEX".


I'll create a new topic Post reply in here*, to avoid derailing this censorship beauty.

* No, I'm not a hypocrite, I just mean "bad" exchanges in that matter.  

[o_e_l_e_o]

Since this post is currently being used on Twitter as some kind of "gotcha" moment, it's probably worth repeating that it is no such thing. All it shows is unmixed change being spent - the same change Whirpool deliberately segregates so as not to impact the privacy of its coinjoins. It does not show a Whirlpool coinjoin being deanonymized in any way.

The Wasabi shills repeating this example only show their own ignorance.

[Wind_FURY]

Is it something with Samourai again?

Of course, but it actually doesn't matter who it is. Doxxing anyone simply because they disagree with you is utterly scumbag behavior.

I was just asking because Wasabi and Samourai have been in a back and forth, name-calling, and mud-slinging "affair" for maybe more than two years. Hahaha.

Wasabi developers vs. Samourai developers boxing match in Miami Bitcoin 2023, like Loomdart vs. RookieXBT in Dubai?

 

[dkbit98]

I'm on your side, but to play the Devil's Advocate, those "better services" are like sitting ducks. Sooner or later a S.W.A.T. team is telling them that their front door is about to break down. It's probably why services like WasabiWallet and some exchanges have accepted the trade-off to act in-accordance to government demands.

I totally agree with you on this.
We don't need to have all wallets working like Wasabi, but I will never give advantage to random centralized mixing services just because they look better on paper or because I get paid zo wear their signature.
If there is something better to be made than Wasabi with Coinjoin I am all for it, and I am always exploring other privacy options.
I criticized Wasabi and other wallets before but I am not going for with hunting until I have better decentralized alternative that works.

I was just asking because Wasabi and Samourai have been in a back and forth, name-calling, and mud-slinging "affair" for maybe more than two years. Hahaha.

Looks like that happen often in Bitcoin space, and it's called tribalism and waste of time.
In hardware wallets that war is constant between Coldcard and Foundation Passport wallet, and between open source vs not open source device.

[NotATether]

Wasabi developers vs. Samourai developers boxing match in Miami Bitcoin 2023, like Loomdart vs. RookieXBT in Dubai?

What is it with these two developer groups, can't they just leave each other alone and build great software? Because Twitter nowadays is only for drama queens and automated scam bots. Wouldn't be surprised if it ends up with all of these accounts getting banned like dashjr.

Particularly from Wasabi, some devs seem to jump at any opportunity to stroke the flames.

[BlackHatCoiner]

For the record, Kruw must have either acknowledged he's in favor of pro-censorship, anti-fungibility, childishly running service, or we all misunderstand the tweets, the public doxxing, the unmixed change being spent, the outright lies, the results of enforcing ethics, and probably definitions of words like "fungibility", "censorship" and "privacy" altogether.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Multiple suggestions making the rounds on Twitter that Coinfirm is the secret blockchain analysis company which Wasabi is partnered with. For example:

https://nitter.net/LaurentMT/status/1654501466537615361#m
https://nitter.net/1440000bytes/status/1654688048125460481#m

And in a piece of spectacular timing, the CEO of Coinfirm posts this thread (https://nitter.net/MirceaMihaescu/status/1653441220805263388#m), boasting about how Coinfirm deanonymizes bitcoin transactions.