ㅤ

[Kruw]

If all you care about is keeping your Bitcoin private from the people you spend it with (even if you forfeit control of your money and data) then why don't you use a Bitcoin exchange instead of a mixer?

Because, almost every exchange I've known cooperates with blockchain analysis firms, and tries to de-anonymize every activity related to you.

Unfortunately, you are making these chain analysis companies profitable since mixers create non private transactions for them to analyze.  If everyone coinjoined instead, there would be no business model of "blockchain analysis" at all because no one would reveal any data from transacting.

But, using a decentralized exchange (like Bisq) to do BTC <-> XMR swap may not be a bad idea.

Fuck off to the shitcoin subforum.  First you tried to scam people into trusting you with their coins by sending them to your "Mixer", and now you are encouraging people to abandon Bitcoin.  

Wasabi provides privacy on Bitcoin without giving anyone control of your coins or data, and you are trying to get people to forfeit their data and steal their Bitcoins from them.  No shitcoins necessary.

Or Samourai Whirlpool

Samourai Whirlpool is not private, it produces traceable change and reveals common input ownership.

Plus instead of debating again and again that goes nowhere, why not open a topic/guide that compares different CoinJoin wallets and illustrate the pros and cons of each? That would be a more constructive solution, no?

That's what the open source project https://www.coinjoins.org/ is dedicated to.

The entire bitcoin blockchain storing all bitcoin transactions that have ever taken place is barely half a TB, how can database of a mixer that stores a tiny fraction of that plus any possible additional data (like keys, chips, IPs, etc which are all tiny data) be 14 times bigger than the entire blockchain?!

Right now, Bitcoin is 573GB.

It's part of a large conversation so I won't post about every thing else but you've said MixTum can confiscate your funds and turn over your data to the government when you trust them with your "naughty" coins

You've shared their privacy policy. I've read it doesn't say any thing about MixTum confiscating your funds or turning over your data to the government. Where's their policy saying MixTum can confiscate your funds and turn over your data to the government when you trust them with your "naughty" coins because it isn't saying it or I didn't find it.

Stop making excuses for scammers.  These conditions couldn't possibly be any more damning for any skeptic:

2.1. Privacy Policy

Please refer to our Privacy Policy to get an understanding of our confidentiality obligations. You consent to the collection and use of information as described in the Privacy Policy.

2.2 Suspension or termination of services

[banned mixer] reserves the right to suspend or terminate access to services at any time at its own discretion, with or without reasons, with or without notification assuming no responsibility whatsoever.

When using the mixer, you consent to giving up your data and you consent to losing all your money at any time without placing any responsibility on the person you trusted with your money.  When using Wasabi, you never trust anyone with your money or your data.

[1714277010]

1714277010

[BlackHatCoiner]

Unfortunately, you are making these chain analysis companies profitable since mixers create non private transactions for them to analyze.

Again, you don't have the evidence to support that claim. You're completely ignoring the possibility that a mixer doesn't keep logs.

First you tried to scam people into trusting you with their coins by sending them to your "Mixer", and now you are encouraging people to abandon Bitcoin. 

Says the person who's encouraging further surveillance by funding chain analysis and the adoption of "naughty coins", completely going against fungibility... 

Also, that "shitcoin" is currently having the biggest anonymity set that exists; it makes Wasabi coinjoins barely effective in comparison.

[Kruw]

Again, you don't have the evidence to support that claim. You're completely ignoring the possibility that a mixer doesn't keep logs.

If someone posts here saying "Help!  My Bitcoin transaction won't confirm!" and I reply to them saying "PM me your 12 word recovery seed, I will speed the transaction up for you.", you should rightfully accuse me of being a scammer and warn him not to turn over his Bitcoin to me.  If I replied that "You're completely ignoring the possibility that I'm trying to help!", you would explain to the user that there is no absolutely no need to trust me.

That's exactly what I'm doing right now:  I'm warning everyone that you are scamming because you are telling them to turn over control of their data and funds to a "Mixer" on a thread about coinjoins, which never give up control of a user's data or funds.

Says the person who's encouraging further surveillance by funding chain analysis and the adoption of "naughty coins", completely going against fungibility...  

You are the one who is encouraging chain surveillance by trying to get people to reveal their transaction data.  If everyone coinjoined instead of using mixers, there would be no possibility of chain surveillance.

Also, that "shitcoin" is currently having the biggest anonymity set that exists; it makes Wasabi coinjoins barely effective in comparison.

I'll help you, here's the link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=67.0

[BlackHatCoiner]

If someone posts here saying "Help!  My Bitcoin transaction won't confirm!" and I reply to them saying "PM me your 12 word recovery seed, I will speed the transaction up for you.", you should rightfully accuse me of being a scammer and warn him not to turn over his Bitcoin to me.

Correct.

If I replied that "You're completely ignoring the possibility that I'm trying to help!", you would explain to the user that there is no absolutely no need to trust me.

Correct.

That's exactly what I'm doing right now:  I'm warning everyone that you are scamming because you are telling them to turn over control of their data and funds to a "Mixer" on a thread about coinjoins, which never give up control of a user's data or funds.

With the exception that using a mixer comes with some advantages over your service, and any other coinjoin service; cost and effectiveness. If there was an identical service available elsewhere where custody is not relinquished, then there would be no reason to opt for the custodial approach. But, in the case of coinjoin services which treat the currency as non-fungible, and fund the surveillance of the chain using coinjoin fees, I completely acknowledge the need for custodial such services.

Now this is the point where you reiterate the same misconceptions regarding effectiveness and how relinquishing your data negates the mixing purpose.  Just to preempt this, I am specifically referring to services that don't keep logs. Moreover, I am fully aware of the risk associated with placing trust solely in someone's reputation.

If everyone coinjoined instead of using mixers, there would be no possibility of chain surveillance.

Except from the part where everyone can't coinjoin as there exist "naughty coins" which don't pass the zkSNACKs' approval? And the part where you're literally funding chain surveillance?

[o_e_l_e_o]

The whataboutism is endless.

Unfortunately, you are making these chain analysis companies profitable since mixers create non private transactions for them to analyze.

Absolute lols. This is one of the most hypocritical statement I've read, ever. You are the ones directly funding blockchain analysis companies.

Fuck off to the shitcoin subforum.

Even more lols. If you think Monero is a shitcoin, then your opinions on anything privacy related are worthless. Monero is pretty much the only coin other than Bitcoin that isn't a shitcoin.

Samourai Whirlpool is not private, it produces traceable change and reveals common input ownership.

This sentence clearly demonstrates that you do not understand the first thing about your (more successful) competition. One of the key features of Whirlpool is that change is deliberately segregated.

I hadn't checked in on this thread in a while. Thanks for the laughs.

[Wind_FURY]

Or Samourai Whirlpool

Samourai Whirlpool is not private, it produces traceable change and reveals common input ownership.

It's going to be very hard to prove/disprove that without going too technical about it, won't it? Can someone, preferably from people who actually use Samourai Whirlpool, to ELI-5?

Plus instead of debating again and again that goes nowhere, why not open a topic/guide that compares different CoinJoin wallets and illustrate the pros and cons of each? That would be a more constructive solution, no?

That's what the open source project https://www.coinjoins.org/ is dedicated to.

But ser, that's just a website you yourselves maintain. The link at the bottom literally says to download Wasabi Wallet to try CoinJoin. Where's the other CoinJoin apps?

[o_e_l_e_o]

It's going to be very hard to prove/disprove that without going too technical about it, won't it? Can someone, preferably from people who actually use Samourai Whirlpool, to ELI-5?

You want to coinjoin 0.052 BTC. Whirlpool creates five outputs of 0.01 BTC, which are each coinjoined separately. It also creates a change output of 0.002 BTC. (Ignoring fees for the purposes of this explanation.) The change output is sent to a separate account, precisely to keep it separate from your coinjoined outputs. It is called toxic or doxic change since it is not coinjoined.

This is done deliberately to keep your coinjoin outputs of a standardized size (4 sizes you can choose from) and completely fungible. Samourai and Sparrow wallets prevent you from spending this change alongside coinjoined outputs. You can then spend or dispose of this change in a variety of ways: https://bitcoiner.guide/doxxic/

Kruw likes to misrepresent this very deliberate design choice as some kind of critical flaw, either because he simply does not understand how Whirlpool works, or because he has no issues lying about his competition.

But ser, that's just a website you yourselves maintain. The link at the bottom literally says to download Wasabi Wallet to try CoinJoin. Where's the other CoinJoin apps?

More absolute lols. "Look at this open source site which explains the pros and cons of every implementation!" - links to a site owned and operated by the Wasabi team which literally only links to Wasabi.

Completely in keeping with Wasabi's utterly disingenuous behavior.

[Wind_FURY]

It's going to be very hard to prove/disprove that without going too technical about it, won't it? Can someone, preferably from people who actually use Samourai Whirlpool, to ELI-5?

You want to coinjoin 0.052 BTC. Whirlpool creates five outputs of 0.01 BTC, which are each coinjoined separately. It also creates a change output of 0.002 BTC. (Ignoring fees for the purposes of this explanation.) The change output is sent to a separate account, precisely to keep it separate from your coinjoined outputs. It is called toxic or doxic change since it is not coinjoined.

This is done deliberately to keep your coinjoin outputs of a standardized size (4 sizes you can choose from) and completely fungible. Samourai and Sparrow wallets prevent you from spending this change alongside coinjoined outputs. You can then spend or dispose of this change in a variety of ways: https://bitcoiner.guide/doxxic/

Kruw likes to misrepresent this very deliberate design choice as some kind of critical flaw, either because he simply does not understand how Whirlpool works, or because he has no issues lying about his competition.

But ser, that's just a website you yourselves maintain. The link at the bottom literally says to download Wasabi Wallet to try CoinJoin. Where's the other CoinJoin apps?

More absolute lols. "Look at this open source site which explains the pros and cons of every implementation!" - links to a site owned and operated by the Wasabi team which literally only links to Wasabi.

Completely in keeping with Wasabi's utterly disingenuous behavior.

Everyone arguing with him should probably confirm if the identity of who you're talking to is really who you're talking to. I don't think a real developer of a more "serious project" would waste their time in a debate that will not go anywhere. Plus his latest posts have become like he's currently trolling everyone, no?

[cygan]

with the new 2.0.4 release, wasabi wallet improves the efficiency of coinjoin among other things!
other new features and improvements are the following:

• faster wallet load
• speed up unconfirmed transactions
• privacy warnings and improvement suggestions for payments
• cheaper coinjoins especially for whales
• headless daemon and improved rpc interface
• qrcode scanning on linux

https://blog.wasabiwallet.io/wasabis-latest-release-2-0-4-improves-coinjoin-efficiency/
https://github.com/zkSNACKs/WalletWasabi/releases

[Kruw]

With the exception that using a mixer comes with some advantages over your service, and any other coinjoin service; cost and effectiveness.

You are WRONG.  Mixers aren't effective because they don't provide privacy to their users and the cost could not be higher because your coins get stolen.

If there was an identical service available elsewhere where custody is not relinquished, then there would be no reason to opt for the custodial approach.

You're LYING- There is an identical service available where custody is not relinquished:  It's called coinjoin.  That's how anyone can correctly identify "mixers" as deliberate scams since there is no requirement for them to control your coins or data.

But, in the case of coinjoin services which treat the currency as non-fungible, and fund the surveillance of the chain using coinjoin fees, I completely acknowledge the need for custodial such services.

Again, you are WRONG:  Any mixing website could have chosen to run a coinjoin coordinator to prove they are not interested in collecting anyone's data and not interested in stealing their coins.  Instead, you can prove that mixing websites are scams because they are telling everyone to send them their coins and data instead.

Now this is the point where you reiterate the same misconceptions regarding effectiveness and how relinquishing your data negates the mixing purpose.  Just to preempt this, I am specifically referring to services that don't keep logs. Moreover, I am fully aware of the risk associated with placing trust solely in someone's reputation.

LIAR, you said you would rather have your property than your privacy after the Chipmixer scam:

I'm curious about that too. Many people used ChipMixer for privacy, which (still) isn't illegal. But if you're going to claim your vouchers back from the German authorities, your privacy will be gone.

Privacy is secondary. If I had vouchers, which I fortunately don't, I'd just want my property back.

Except from the part where everyone can't coinjoin as there exist "naughty coins" which don't pass the zkSNACKs' approval?

You're LYING again.  Wasabi is free and open source software just like Bitcoin itself, ANYONE can coinjoin without permission: https://github.com/zkSnacks/WalletWasabi

And the part where you're literally funding chain surveillance?

The Mixutum.io scamming site clearly says:

]3. Quality scoring of incoming transactions
We run a thorough background check of incoming funds through a proprietary algorithm.

Unlike a coinjoin coordinator who reviews coins registered to a round, the chain surveillance [banned mixer] performs on its users is actually dangerous since they control the coins and collect the data of their users.

It's going to be very hard to prove/disprove that without going too technical about it, won't it? Can someone, preferably from people who actually use Samourai Whirlpool, to ELI-5?

I already proved how Whirlpool users can be tracked in this post, you can verify it for yourself:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5286821.msg62072711#msg62072711

The link at the bottom literally says to download Wasabi Wallet to try CoinJoin. Where's the other CoinJoin apps?

In the advanced section, which is coming soon.

Everyone arguing with him should probably confirm if the identity of who you're talking to is really who you're talking to.

Why would you need to confirm the identity of the pseudonym you are talking to? Unlike you, I'm not asking you to trust me at all, I'm asking you to not trust anyone by using coinjoins to protect your funds and data.

[BlackHatCoiner]

You are WRONG.  Mixers aren't effective because they don't provide privacy to their users and the cost could not be higher because your coins get stolen.

1. Disprove my claim by linking my ChipMixer deposits to my withdrawals: bc1qkp6s48ghcq23y4w0l0vy0d6dd288ejdrx0cq0r. I'll wait.
2. I can bare that cost if needed. Thanks for your interest.

You're LYING- There is an identical service available where custody is not relinquished:  It's called coinjoin.

No, you're lying. A coinjoin provides minimum privacy levels, comparably to all the available mixer funds most of the times, and the chain analysis only needs to follow the outputs from that specifically coinjoin, whereas in the mixer case, they'll have to de-anonymize every single mixer withdrawal transaction.

LIAR, you said you would rather have your property than your privacy after the Chipmixer scam

And indeed, I'd rather have my coinjoins mixed through Whirlpool, than use mixers, because I recently discovered it. What I'd absolutely not want to do is use Wasabi, as I'd literally fund mass surveillance and would use a provably faulty software (a fact which you're denying, but anyway).

As for mixtum, I'll agree that arguing that is a little vague, but it doesn't say they'll reject your coins.


With that being said, this will likely be the last response to you. You are disregarding all constructive input that people are giving you and resorting to whataboutism.

[Pmalek]

Except from the part where everyone can't coinjoin as there exist "naughty coins" which don't pass the zkSNACKs' approval?

You're LYING again.  Wasabi is free and open source software just like Bitcoin itself, ANYONE can coinjoin without permission

Wasabi is open-source, and everyone can participate in a coinjoin but only in theory. In practice, you would need to receive green light from the blockchain analysis company zkSNACKs is partnered with. Only after they investigate if your coins are "clean enough" are you allowed to participate. And zkSNACKs isn't owned by BlackHatCoiner or anyone else in this thread calling you out, it's owned by your team. 

And the part where you're literally funding chain surveillance?

The Mixutum.io scamming site clearly says...

Very nice. So instead of answering the question or commenting on why your coordinator works with and funds a blockchain analysis company, your reply is let's talk about something else. Good to know.

[arabspaceship123]

You've posted the latest release so you're probably using it. If you're asked to post a review based on user experience for Wasabi Wallet what's the key point you'd mention?

with the new 2.0.4 release, wasabi wallet improves the efficiency of coinjoin among other things!
other new features and improvements are the following:

• faster wallet load
• speed up unconfirmed transactions
• privacy warnings and improvement suggestions for payments
• cheaper coinjoins especially for whales
• headless daemon and improved rpc interface
• qrcode scanning on linux

https://blog.wasabiwallet.io/wasabis-latest-release-2-0-4-improves-coinjoin-efficiency/
https://github.com/zkSNACKs/WalletWasabi/releases

[cygan]

You've posted the latest release so you're probably using it. If you're asked to post a review based on user experience for Wasabi Wallet what's the key point you'd mention?
✂

i have posted the wasabi update, but unfortunately i use another desktop/mobile Bitcoin wallet.
but when i look at the new features i would say that for me these are the more important ones: 'speed up unconfirmed transactions', 'privacy warnings and improvement suggestions for payments', 'cheaper coinjoins especially for whales' and 'qrcode scanning on linux'
maybe you use the wasabi wallet and could tell us your impression after the update?

[arabspaceship123]

What's your desktop Bitcoin wallet? I've previously downloaded Wasabi wallet for testing. I've created my wallet but didn't coinjoin after reading reviews concerning the way it's using blockchain analysis. I'll download the newer version for testing features. I'll write my review when it's completed with small transactions.

i have posted the wasabi update, but unfortunately i use another desktop/mobile Bitcoin wallet.
but when i look at the new features i would say that for me these are the more important ones: 'speed up unconfirmed transactions', 'privacy warnings and improvement suggestions for payments', 'cheaper coinjoins especially for whales' and 'qrcode scanning on linux'
maybe you use the wasabi wallet and could tell us your impression after the update?

[Z-tight]

I've previously downloaded Wasabi wallet for testing. I've created my wallet but didn't coinjoin after reading reviews concerning the way it's using blockchain analysis. I'll download the newer version for testing features. I'll write my review when it's completed with small transactions.

I don't know if you already know this, but if you didn't use the CoinJoin initially because Wasabi blacklists UTXO that they think is "naughty" from participating in their CoinJoin, take note that nothing changes as regards that in this newly released version, zkSNACKs still pays a blockchain analysis company with the fee you pay to spy on your UTXO and decide if you are "worthy" to participate in the CoinJoin.

[Medusah]

Mixers aren't effective because they don't provide privacy to their users and the cost could not be higher because your coins get stolen.

Mixers are infinite times more effective for the naughty inputs, because the default coordinator Wasabi relies on is not effective at all on these inputs.

Fungibility goes brrrr! 

[pooya87]

There is an identical service available where custody is not relinquished:  It's called coinjoin.

There is a difference between CoinJoin the protocol and the implementation of this protocol. We know the benefits of CoinJoin, we also know the danger of using the malicious implementation of CoinJoin called Wasabi that is in cahoots with anti-privacy organizations.

It's like ECDSA. We know the algorithm itself is safe however there were implementations that were broken and leaked the private key when user signed their transaction.

[arabspaceship123]

So their naughty coins analyser hasn't been removed? They could've taken it out with new updates if they wanted. It would've given zkSNACKs a popularity boost if they'd stop checking for naughty coins. They're insisting on employing a blockchain analyser in new releases so I'll avoid Wasabi wallet.

I don't know if you already know this, but if you didn't use the CoinJoin initially because Wasabi blacklists UTXO that they think is "naughty" from participating in their CoinJoin, take note that nothing changes as regards that in this newly released version, zkSNACKs still pays a blockchain analysis company with the fee you pay to spy on your UTXO and decide if you are "worthy" to participate in the CoinJoin.

[o_e_l_e_o]

So their naughty coins analyser hasn't been removed?

Nope.

They could've taken it out with new updates if they wanted.

Yes, but they don't want to.

It would've given zkSNACKs a popularity boost if they'd stop checking for naughty coins.

Not really. They've proven they are willing to sell out their users, cooperate with the authorities, fund our common enemy, and attack bitcoin itself, all in the name of lining their own pockets. They are never to be trusted again.

They're insisting on employing a blockchain analyser in new releases so I'll avoid Wasabi wallet.

A wise choice.