ㅤ

[Wind_FURY]

It's a centralized service, and you're free to criticize. But dishonest? Ser, it's literally there in print. It's definitely a trade-off.

"Trade-off" means you gain something in exchange for sacrificing something else.  Coinjoins do not require a user to forfeit custody of their data and their coins, we can confirm that "mixing sites" are scams since they force their users to give up their data and their custody for no benefit.

In the context of trade-offs in my posts, I was trying to make everyone see it from what I believe is zkSNACK's viewpoint.

I'll now add you in my ignore list. I was the only person in the topic who tried to defend Wasabi's trade-off when everyone else was throwing criticisms against you.

I know, the first time you heard about Wasabi you were insisting that it would be a terrible idea to coinjoin since it would include funds from criminals:

Something to think about.

It might be safer to leave them alone. Tumbling with Coinjoin and mixers might mix your coins with the coins of criminals, black hat hackers, and dark market drug dealers.

But think about it, tumblers and coinjoins are not cheap, and who would be willing to pay for them to keep their privacy?

I believe an ordinary user would be digging himself into a bigger hole if he mixes his coins with what usually would be the criminals' coins.

Wasn't there always an open debate about taint and Bitcoin's fungibilty?

Bitcoin may seem fungible within its own protocol, but external entities are applying “taint” information to coins, making Bitcoin infungible in practice. Most large exchanges are automatically performing risk assessment on incoming customer coins. While it’s easy to claim Bitcoin also has obvious plausible deniability, that does’t matter to Coinbase, Circle, Cash App, etc. They are applying taint with enough confidence to close your account.

https://medium.com/bitcoinerrorlog/bitcoin-is-not-fungible-should-it-be-620a28f3f8b1

[Kruw]

In the context of trade-offs in my posts, I was trying to make everyone see it from what I believe is zkSNACK's viewpoint.

Okay.

Wasn't there always an open debate about taint and Bitcoin's fungibilty?

Bitcoin may seem fungible within its own protocol, but external entities are applying “taint” information to coins, making Bitcoin infungible in practice. Most large exchanges are automatically performing risk assessment on incoming customer coins. While it’s easy to claim Bitcoin also has obvious plausible deniability, that doesn’t matter to Coinbase, Circle, Cash App, etc. They are applying taint with enough confidence to close your account.

https://medium.com/bitcoinerrorlog/bitcoin-is-not-fungible-should-it-be-620a28f3f8b1

Yes, that's why it's so important for technologies like Lightning and Cross Input Signature Aggregation to find adoption since it makes private transactions cheaper than non-private transactions.  With these technologies, users who aren't seeking privacy will gain it in the process of seeking cheap fees (assuming they are not foolish enough to forfeit their data/coins to a custodian).  If every Bitcoin block is filled with Taproot Lightning channels being opened/closed/spliced in coinjoin transactions (due to this being the cheapest way to use Bitcoin), then we have succeeded in turning Bitcoin from a non fungible network into a fungible network.

[kayirigi]

How do we verify that it's really him?

We started watching this convo from since @Kruwed linked here in one of his many retarded twitter posts. You can verify that it is him because his twitter posts and his posts here are the same amounts of retarded. He spends much time LARPing as someone who knows what he posts about and we spend much time telling him he is retarded.


https://nitter.unixfox.eu/pokkst/status/1693989113589059989#m

This is a very basic example since I know you guys struggle with math, so let me know if I need to slow it down and re-explain.

https://nitter.unixfox.eu/SamouraiDev/status/1693967207686930866#m

Totally in over his head so he pretexts a previous engagement while "name dropping" and hands the issue off to kruwed, whose FUD has already been debunked countless times. The absolute state of it.

https://nitter.unixfox.eu/DrunkDialMe_/status/1690824818231508992#m

Holy shit, the delusion is strong with this one

https://nitter.unixfox.eu/As0Zi/status/1691211732771823616#m

LMAO is this thread even real?

https://nitter.unixfox.eu/TerryBitmas/status/1667122683975196672#m

Perfect, if you want all your coins dressed down by a state surveillance firm before being allowed into the mix.

https://nitter.unixfox.eu/orangedmike/status/1662154402793127945#m

Tip: Bullshitting less on Twitter and learn proper tools.

https://nitter.unixfox.eu/PavelTheCoder/status/1662146655792111616#m

You're not able to comprehend simple facts and you're a disingenuous fuck. Responding to your FUD statements is a waste of time.

https://nitter.unixfox.eu/PavelTheCoder/status/1661913560312578048#m

You are obviously too retarded to uderstand how Whirlpool works.

https://nitter.unixfox.eu/PavelTheCoder/status/1662062732592414721#m

Bro, you already proved that you're retarded. You don't have to prove it even more.

https://nitter.unixfox.eu/PavelTheCoder/status/1662084516515569664#m

The fact that you are proudly displaying a conversation that you got destroyed in just shows how retarded you are.

https://nitter.unixfox.eu/SamouraiDev/status/1662158607092154388#m

After having defaced our GitLab it seems that he has taken to "chat bombing" our support desk. This is the same idiot who we were contacted about because he was harassing people in their DMs.

https://nitter.unixfox.eu/sDefrees/status/1662145793703264261#m

Your misunderstanding is rooted in your expectations based on Wasabi, which is half-baked.

https://nitter.unixfox.eu/sDefrees/status/1662148883936428044#m

I wrongly assumed you were posing a real concern, one Whirlpool addressed from the very start.

In reality, you're kinda just making shit up that's neither here nor there

https://nitter.unixfox.eu/sDefrees/status/1662149623627104278#m

Just realized you have no clue what you're on about, and I value my time.

https://nitter.unixfox.eu/SamouraiDev/status/1662049060553891843#m

Kruwed is the least gifted of that bunch & yet they hoist him to the forefront. It's a total train wreck.

https://nitter.unixfox.eu/SamouraiWallet/status/1649569205488951296#m

His analysis makes no sense. It is convincing only if you don't know how to read a blockchain.

https://nitter.unixfox.eu/maxtannahill/status/1648242225195917312#m

Your tweets add no value and you clearly have an agenda.

[Kruw]

We started watching this convo from since @Kruwed linked here in one of his many retarded twitter posts. You can verify that it is him because his twitter posts and his posts here are the same amounts of retarded. He spends much time LARPing as someone who knows what he posts about and we spend much time telling him he is retarded.

HAHAHAHA!  One of the scammers who was previously caught red handed advertising mixing services appears to have created a brand new Bitcointalk account to insult me with.  How pathetic.

Repeated dishonesty from Samourai have barred them from ever receiving a payout from the bounty as far as I am concerned: I will not be signing a transaction paying them. Evaluating the privacy of systems is difficult even when the involved parties are honest and easy to work with, it is far too difficult when they are actively misleading.  Personally, I would urge my friends to not use that wallet.

As far as other stuff, there has been efforts in progress to do some awarding for a couple months now. It takes time to evaluate things and work with the recipients.  If it didn't this bounty would have been gone years ago when "darkwallet" demanded the whole thing then mobbed us with unreasonable demands (including public campaigning which was vigorous to the point of harassment) to pay it all to them when the result didn't provide the advertised privacy and didn't even stay available due to the operating model.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.msg51128834#msg51128834

It's sad to see people quote Samourai's team as some sort of source of truth instead of verifying claims for themselves.

As always, I'd echo the staff's advice to use Wasabi (or JoinMarket) instead of trusting "mixers" with your funds and data:

Congratulations to the Wasabi and JoinMarket developers! JoinMarket pioneered a lot of CoinJoin science (and BTW, belcher wrote an excellent & comprehensive wiki article on privacy), while Wasabi is the first wallet that implements CoinJoin in both a highly-usable and sound way. As both a signer and a donor to the CoinJoin bounty fund, I'm thrilled that these two pieces of software exist!

For everyone looking to improve their privacy, I highly recommend checking out Wasabi, especially over centralized "mixers".


Further work is still necessary toward achieving default-fungibility, which is IMO the end goal. Even with Wasabi, you need a fair bit of expertise to maintain privacy, and the vast majority of people are using wallets that are terrible privacy-wise. Without intending to say that the bounty fund will reward people for these specific things, I'd personally like to see:

 - Improvements to make Wasabi more of a complete wallet.
 - CoinJoin integration in other wallets, especially Bitcoin Core.
 - Research on doing CoinJoin in decentralized ways. (Wasabi's method is pretty secure, but requires a centralized coordinator.)
 - Other research (and, perhaps more importantly, usable products) for improving day-to-day privacy.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.msg51275314#msg51275314

[kayirigi]

Ya got any staff quotes since from after when wasabi became a snitch?

[Kruw]

Ya got any staff quotes since from after when wasabi became a snitch?

As you can verify for yourself since Wasabi is entirely open source, your client cannot "snitch" on you since your xpub address is protected with compact block filters and your IP address is protected with Tor.

But I would love to hear from theymos regarding Wasabi 2.0's new WabiSabi coinjoin protocol given his previous experience with the Wasabi 1.0 drawbacks.  Since toxic change is eliminated, you no longer need any expertise to maintain privacy.

For everyone looking to improve their privacy, I highly recommend checking out Wasabi, especially over centralized "mixers".

Further work is still necessary toward achieving default-fungibility, which is IMO the end goal. Even with Wasabi, you need a fair bit of expertise to maintain privacy, and the vast majority of people are using wallets that are terrible privacy-wise.

[Pmalek]

<Snip>

I had to snip and remove the gibberish of a sick mind because it's too long and just sad to look at. You are completely losing it Mr. Kruw, and it's beautiful to see. It's excellent that it's all public. Mental illness is a serious condition and shouldn't be taken lightly! It can destroy families. Please everyone, seek professional help before it's too late. Mental problems can be controlled with the right treatment.

I guess knowing you have stepped over to the dark side affects even the best of us, doesn't it Mr. Kruw? Deep down it can't be easy knowing you are working with the enemy of Bitcoin, willing to pay good money for the spying and investigating of those who want privacy.

How about that BlackHatCoiner guy, eh?

And capitalized warning posts in red incoming in 3, 2, 1, go...   

[BlackHatCoiner]

You have received negative feedback. I will remove it once you provide evidence for every user to whom you have claimed to be caught stealing users' coins from those mixers.

[BlackHatCoiner]

That only proves I have advertised a service which was either paused to processing withdrawals or which was confiscated by authorities. Not that I have ever stolen anyone's coins.

[Kruw]

That only proves I have advertised a service which was either paused to processing withdrawals or which was confiscated by authorities. Not that I have ever stolen anyone's coins.

"I didn't steal your coins, your withdrawal is just processing."

Go away.  This thread is for open source software that never requires you to trust third parties, not for you to lure in scam victims.

[Pmalek]

You have received negative feedback. I will remove it once you provide evidence for every user to whom you have claimed to be caught stealing users' coins from those mixers.

Don't try to reason with the mentally insane. It doesn't help them. Kruw doesn't seem to differentiate reality and imagination. One can only hope he gets the help he needs. He seems to like the color red and the negative trust on his profile is warranted, so that anyone who thinks of engaging with this individual sees what they are up against. Today we are thieves, tomorrow we might be killers. Let's see.   

[Medusah]

Go away.  This thread is for open source software that never requires you to trust third parties, not for you to lure in scam victims.

This thread was for that purpose.  Past tense.  It is not anymore.  Now, it is just you trying to convinve yourself that it is completely normal for a privacy supporting company to fund chain analysis and to treat the currency as non-fungible.  We, your past users, have long stopped using Wasabi, because it makes no fucking sense to us.  I prefer funding the development of truly privacy respecting software, written by people with moral standards, than to pay for the development of the surveillance company I'm trying to hide myself from in the first place.

[Kruw]

This thread was for that purpose.  Past tense.  It is not anymore.  Now, it is just you trying to convinve yourself that it is completely normal for a privacy supporting company to fund chain analysis and to treat the currency as non-fungible.  We, your past users, have long stopped using Wasabi, because it makes no fucking sense to us.  I prefer funding the development of truly privacy respecting software, written by people with moral standards, than to pay for the development of the surveillance company I'm trying to hide myself from in the first place.

This is a complete misunderstanding about what open source software is.  It's like telling everyone not to use Tor to encrypt their IP address because it was invented by the US government.  No matter how passionately you hate the US government, refusing to use open source encryption they created only harms your own privacy (and anyone stupid enough to listen to you).

[Pmalek]

This is a complete misunderstanding about what open source software is.  It's like telling everyone not to use Tor to encrypt their IP address because it was invented by the US government.  No matter how passionately you hate the US government, refusing to use open source encryption they created only harms your own privacy (and anyone stupid enough to listen to you).

As usual, you are playing with words and deliberately refusing to focus on the problem. Where did Medusah say anything bad about the nature of open-source software, how it shouldn't be used, etc.? No one has ever said that Wasabi isn't open-source and not verifiable. People are rightly criticizing your involvement with blockchain analysis companies, which has nothing to do with privacy, and will be the reason more and more users will look for better alternatives. Regardless of how long you try to avoid the issue, that's not going to change and remains a fact. 

[Medusah]

It's like telling everyone not to use Tor to encrypt their IP address because it was invented by the US government.

With the exception that by using it I am not funding the development of public surveillance and I will always have my privacy protected no matter what?

[Kruw]

Peter Todd crushing the critics:  "I can do my own Wasabi coinjoin coordinator... If someone's complaining about this, go start your own damn coordinator."

https://youtu.be/oPNFdhZUGmk?t=297

[Medusah]

Peter Todd crushing the critics:  "I can do my own Wasabi coinjoin coordinator... If someone's complaining about this, go start your own damn coordinator."

Great idea Peter.  As if everyone possesses the same amount of money and reputation as with zkSNACKs.  

I have not tried Samurai from their official wallet, I have only used their whirlpool feature from Sparrow, so I cannot verify his claim that Samurai is run by the authorities.  Could we have more context on this?  Does it send xpub keys in server?

[Kruw]

Great idea Peter.  As if everyone possesses the same amount of money and reputation as with zkSNACKs.  

You don't need any money or reputation to run a coordinator.

I have not tried Samurai from their official wallet, I have only used their whirlpool feature from Sparrow, so I cannot verify his claim that Samurai is run by the authorities.  Could we have more context on this?  Does it send xpub keys in server?

Yes, your IP address and xpub address is sent to Samourai's servers by default.  They have already stated that any PR to that makes it so you must opt into sharing this information will never be merged: https://code.samourai.io/wallet/samourai-wallet-android/-/issues/458

Samourai has also issued a notice (via canary) to their users that they have complied with government requests to turn over user information: https://twitter.com/FuegoDelMonte/status/1664723858274807811

[o_e_l_e_o]

You don't need any money or reputation to run a coordinator.

Been over this 100 times already. If you don't spend any time or money attracting users and building your reputation, then you will have zero volume. Although given the mess of Wasabi coinjoins, only coinjoining with yourself probably isn't that much worse than the default, lol.

Yes, your IP address and xpub address is sent to Samourai's servers by default.

You don't need any money or reputation to run your own node.

You cannot seriously claim that Wasabi is fine because you could theoretically run your own coordinator, which is highly complicated to do and nobody does, and then in the next breath claim that Samourai is broken because it is too difficult to run your own node, which is completely trivial to do and tens of thousands of people do already.

Samourai has also issued a notice (via canary) to their users that they have complied with government requests to turn over user information: https://twitter.com/FuegoDelMonte/status/1664723858274807811

Another complete lie, trivially debunked by looking at the very next tweet on that link or even just checking the canary yourself.

https://nitter.cz/SamouraiWallet/status/1664738065632436224#m
https://samouraiwallet.com/canary

[Kruw]

Been over this 100 times already. If you don't spend any time or money attracting users and building your reputation, then you will have zero volume.

This is a problem only you would face since you destroyed your entire reputation by telling everyone that Wasabi is not private.  I'm sure it would be difficult for you to convince anyone to provide volume for your coordinator given how diligently you've used this forum for deceiving your users into thinking they are required to trust you.

Another complete lie, trivially debunked by looking at the very next tweet on that link or even just checking the canary yourself.

It's not a lie, here's the link for you to verify for yourself that even SamouraiWallet confirms that the canary date was passed: https://twitter.com/SamouraiWallet/status/1664738065632436224