A Resource Based Economy

[ngupowered]

RealBitcoin, governments, solely established to secure persons and property, have always been- and are the natural outgrowth of free-market capitalism, and your little boring unsupported tirades on RBE:s and gulags change it not. You may think that you are being clever; however, I can assure you that you are not.

[RealBitcoin]

RealBitcoin, governments, solely established to secure persons and property, have always been- and are the natural outgrowth of free-market capitalism, and your little boring unsupported tirades on RBE:s and gulags change it not. You may think that you are being clever; however, I can assure you that you are not.

Well now you are very confusing. So you are saying that there will be no government in a RBE society, is that correct?

If so, then who will do the centralized resource distribution?

If not, then the system will not be centralized, in which case that system is called capitalism.


So explain that to be because it's confusing.

[BantamSystems]

The only way to solve this issue is to reduce taxes on the poor, end QE and stop pilfering away the wealth of savers by endlessly printing money.

Because, by not printing money, you don't just stop the poor people being robbed, but you shrink the income gap which is the most important thing

[RealBitcoin]

The only way to solve this issue is to reduce taxes on the poor, end QE and stop pilfering away the wealth of savers by endlessly printing money.

Because, by not printing money, you don't just stop the poor people being robbed, but you shrink the income gap which is the most important thing

I would support that, however the current bureocrats and public sector workers would not.

Nowadays half of the labour force is public sector, if you take away the money from the government, then the public sector workers will revolt because they will feel threatened (as if all their money they get is stolen money via taxes and inflation)


So you cannot create capitalism from a pseudo-communist world. You have to let the current world fall, and then from the ashes, a better world will emerge.

Because as you can see the socialists and communists in this thread are just brainwashed by their ideology and cant seem to reason.

[ngupowered]

RealBitcoin, so now you are pretending that I didn't speak of today's governments; how very dishonest of you!

Btw, I found an excellent post on YouTube, that describes libertarians fairly well, RealBitcoin included, - on a Peter Joseph video:

"List of dumbass common excuses for capitalism (that only dumbass would use):
- Its human nature.
- Money is just a tool
- A true free market would fix this (Aka utopia capitalism without governments)
- This is communism! Remember Russia!
- You are all lazy hippies
- If you hate money so much, give it to me, Aka, LOL, I'm a stupid jerk.
- LOL barter? You so dumb.
- Without capitalism, nobody will be motivated to do anything, they would just sit around and die. LOL, I'm a stupid blob.
- It will never happen, just look at the slave trade, black slaves are still picking cottons in America. Oh wait ....
-It will never happen, just look at Nazi Germany, people are still obeying orders and killing jews. Oh wait ....
-It will never happen, we still live under the Queen of Britain, oh wait ........
-Who will clean the sewers? Who gets to say what we can or cannot do? I want ma FREEDOM!!!! If nature wants me to breath oxygen, I'll just breath CO2, because nobody can tell me what to do, Muh FREEDOM!!!!
- SKYNET!!! I DONT WANT TERMINATORS!!!
- Peter Joseph is NWO SPACE LIZARD ALIEN!!!!"

[RealBitcoin]

RealBitcoin, so now you are pretending that I didn't speak of today's governments; how very dishonest of you!

Btw, I found an excellent post on YouTube, that describes libertarians fairly well, RealBitcoin included, - on a Peter Joseph video:

"List of dumbass common excuses for capitalism (that only dumbass would use):
- Its human nature.
- Money is just a tool
- A true free market would fix this (Aka utopia capitalism without governments)
- This is communism! Remember Russia!
- You are all lazy hippies
- If you hate money so much, give it to me, Aka, LOL, I'm a stupid jerk.
- LOL barter? You so dumb.
- Without capitalism, nobody will be motivated to do anything, they would just sit around and die. LOL, I'm a stupid blob.
- It will never happen, just look at the slave trade, black slaves are still picking cottons in America. Oh wait ....
-It will never happen, just look at Nazi Germany, people are still obeying orders and killing jews. Oh wait ....
-It will never happen, we still live under the Queen of Britain, oh wait ........
-Who will clean the sewers? Who gets to say what we can or cannot do? I want ma FREEDOM!!!! If nature wants me to breath oxygen, I'll just breath CO2, because nobody can tell me what to do, Muh FREEDOM!!!!
- SKYNET!!! I DONT WANT TERMINATORS!!!
- Peter Joseph is NWO SPACE LIZARD ALIEN!!!!"

Well thats certainly a childish way to put it, but I can address everyone of those posts if you want me to, but if you present them in a different format not so dismissive.


Ok but please answer my previous question. It's very dishonest of you if you skip my responses and always put a new argument out.

RealBitcoin, governments, solely established to secure persons and property, have always been- and are the natural outgrowth of free-market capitalism, and your little boring unsupported tirades on RBE:s and gulags change it not. You may think that you are being clever; however, I can assure you that you are not.

Well now you are very confusing. So you are saying that there will be no government in a RBE society, is that correct?

If so, then who will do the centralized resource distribution?

If not, then the system will not be centralized, in which case that system is called capitalism.


So explain that to be because it's confusing.

[ngupowered]

Well thats certainly a childish way to put it, but I can address everyone of those posts if you want me to, but if you present them in a different format not so dismissive.

What posts?

RealBitcoin, for the purpose of being smart and intelligent, my statement was
"[today's] governments, solely established to secure persons and property, have always been- and are the natural outgrowth of free-market capitalism [...]".

Your questions on an RBE have already been answered by others, so I suggest that you use Google search, instead.

[RealBitcoin]

Well thats certainly a childish way to put it, but I can address everyone of those posts if you want me to, but if you present them in a different format not so dismissive.

What posts?

RealBitcoin, for the purpose of being smart and intelligent, my statement was
"[today's] governments, solely established to secure persons and property, have always been- and are the natural outgrowth of free-market capitalism [...]".

Your questions on an RBE have already been answered by others, so I suggest that you use Google search, instead.

Well then I disagree that. A government is not established to secure it's citizens safety or their property. It's established to secure it's own safety and property.

In other words a government protects itself and it's assets and cares less about it's citizens, no matter how democratic a society is.


That is why free market capitalism is the ultimate system because it balances power, and doesn't let a tyrrany run loose.

I am a capitalist, but I am against public and private tyrrany, and capitalism can stop both.

[ngupowered]

RealBitcoin, the US system of law is based on the common law of England - inherited at the adoption of the Constitution and described in the 7th Amend. - which thefreedictionary.com defines as "The principles and rules of action, embodied in case law rather than legislative enactments, applicable to the government and protection of persons and property that derive their authority from the community customs and traditions that evolved over the centuries as interpreted by judicial tribunals.", my emphasis.
You're Welcome!

[RealBitcoin]

RealBitcoin, the US system of law is based on the common law of England - inherited at the adoption of the Constitution and described in the 7th Amend. - which thefreedictionary.com defines as "The principles and rules of action, embodied in case law rather than legislative enactments, applicable to the government and protection of persons and property that derive their authority from the community customs and traditions that evolved over the centuries as interpreted by judicial tribunals.", my emphasis.
You're Welcome!

And traditions cant be distorted?

Like the catholic traditions of peace and friendship led to crusades, witch burning and religious wars.

The same way personal security and security of the property should not mean tyrrany and gulags.


It's really a bad analogy to compare past traditions to current present situations, because I dont see any links there.

[ngupowered]

RealBitcoin, to secure persons and property, you need a strong government with police and military, a way to fund it, through taxation for example, and a strong foreign policy to defeat threats initiated from within a foreign country. That is simply the natural extension of property, and is exactly the reason for the current paradigm; it was destined to be.

Are you saying that the current US government is in violation of the Constitution? Care to provide proof of your presumably baseless assertions?

[RealBitcoin]

RealBitcoin, to secure persons and property, you need a strong government with police and military, a way to fund it, through taxation for example, and a strong foreign policy to defeat threats initiated from within a foreign country. That is simply the natural extension of property, and is exactly the reason for the current paradigm; it was destined to be.

Are you saying that the current US government is in violation of the Constitution? Care to provide proof of your presumably baseless assertions?

No you dont need those at all.

Military is more likely used for offence rather than defense.

Police hardly protects anybody, it just writes up the crimes and goes after the perpetrator after the incident happened.

And a government steals more from you than it spends on protecting you and you assets.

Your claims are illogical.

[ngupowered]

RealBitcoin, so you consider it illogical that "we the people" set up a government to protect and manage their property, funded by taxation? Well, guess what? That's exactly what happened; and people supported the newly formed union.

I suggest that you provide something more than simply blanket statements that proves nothing.

[penang]

That is not capitalism morons, the east indian company was a government tool (a pseudo government) to enslave India.

Damnit you guys have no clue, no wonder you are communists.

How about learn some mises books before commenting bullshit.


Start here:
https://www.mises.org/

RealBitcoin,

QUESTION:

Dear peter,
I have been talking to libertarians about an RBE and get frustrated countering their weird arguments. I have included some points brought up I would like help with, if you have time.

About resource abuse and exploitation, he says:

“If you own something, you want to maintain it in good condition. Private property means people will care about their property, including resources and employees… Those employee are also there voluntarily in a free market, so it is their choice.”

When I talk about poverty and imbalance, he says things like:

“People who give other more value in voluntary trades, end up with the most resources. Incompetent people quickly lose their resources to more competent people in efficient markets. This makes sure resources are used in an effective manner.”

or

“Capitalism tells us what kind of work is highly valuable. If you want to make money, study to do that kind of work. With internet, anyone can study almost anything. There are no excuses.”

When I talk about how the monetary-market preserves scarcity and hence more people suffer unessesarily, he says:

“Scarcity is a fact if life. End of story”

SO Peter – How do you deal with these people?!?!
thx
David

ANSWER:
David,

I feel ya.

I had an exchange with a libertarian/ancap a while back and after about 40 min of listening to this person talk, I was so irritated I spent the rest of the 2 hour conversation biting my tongue in anger given how offensive and self-serving he was in his ideology.

I can honestly say there is no economic philosophy more narcissistic and detached from reality than the Austrian/Chicago/Anarcho-Cap folks. It’s Adam Smith’s “invisible hand” on crack.

They see everything in theory, with little reality.

Overall, the central problem is this:
Everything they say is partially true but they defend the ideas as though they are empirical and universal.

I will quickly run down your noted quotes:

>”If you own something, you want to maintain it in good condition. Private property means people will care about their property, including resources and employees…

Regarding “If you own something, you want to maintain it in good condition.”

This is true because you don’t want to have to buy another one. Sure. But this argument only embraces a narrow fraction of market commerce as a system. (FYI, “system” is an idea the Austrians have a very, very hard time with!)

An “owner of a business” does not share the same value when it comes to employees or even land use for profit in many cases. It depends on the circumstance.

Unless an employee’s ability is so rare the owner has to keep them and pay them very well to do so (“maintaining in good condition”), the person is just another service to use and “cost efficiency” or saving money means they (the employer) will seek to pay as little as possible to the employee, disregarding his or her well being more often than not.

It is a dictatorship, not a partnership. Employees are coerced by the need for money to submit to this covert slavery. Given the unemployment crisis due to automation (also due to saving money), many people with PHDs are now currently under or unemployed in this world.

As far as land, as I mentioned, you could argue the owner of a home’s front yard wishes to take care of it, sure – one doesn’t want to have to pay to fix things.

But in the resource/business context, the shortsighted nature of use very often creates the condition of abuse. The owner of a forest plot to harvest lumber might very well have zero concern regarding what such action has on the ecosystem and environment in general and see the lumber as the only important issue in order to gain profit. Therefore, they are not “taking care” of anything in effect when it comes to what “taking care” means – as we have seen for decades with deforestation and the tragic loss of biodiversity globally.

As far as “Those employee are also there voluntarily in a free market, so it is their choice.”

Statements like this really piss me off.

It’s a good thing libertarianism didn’t exist in the same capacity during abject slavery as these people would likely be writing books about how the slaves must really like their servitude since they must have “chosen” to be African. This is truncated reductionistic thought gone berserk.

Completely absent any sense of causality outside of the “snapshot” of the single market interaction. Again, they have no clue about systems theory, network interactions and chains of causality. Just like African slaves were put into a condition (system) that forced their labor by force, so is the pressure of the existence of the market economy itself, which forces all humans into submission in one form or another to survive.

I will debunk it this way:
A woman walks into a pawn shop. She puts a ring on the counter and the guy on the other side says he can offer only $500 for the exchange. She accepts and the exchange is made. No gun to anyones head, right? It’s “voluntary”!

This is all the Austrians would see. They call it “Praxeology” which is, like all of this, partially correct, but ignoring the systemic nature of causality in a complex social system and the pressures that emerge that influence behavior.

It turns out that the ring is her dead husband’s wedding ring. Her husband died a month before from a heart attack, unexpectedly. With two young children, she now has to find a way to get money to pay rent since her husband was the one gaining income before and she helped the kids. So, she had no other option to keep financially afloat but to sell a dear possession to a pawn shop.

Praxeologically, it is a “voluntary” exchange. But in reality is a last resort act of desperation and deeply unnecessary(!) if society had basic, non-market systems to support people on the structural level. The same goes for most women who fall into prostitution.

Now, if you say this to an Austrian, they would say something like “well, that’s why we have charity!” Well, if you (speaking to the Austrian) agree with the need for charity, which is non-market in the act of acquisition, then you are not a true believer in the “free-market” as a truly effective universal model now are you?

Also, a quick statistical assessment of polls on human labor satisfaction proves the vast majority do not like their jobs. A 2013 Gallup poll “found that only 13% of workers feel engaged by their jobs” worldwide. Hmm… why dont they just leave? It’s voluntary right?

It’s painfully stupid. Moving on:

>”People who give other more value in voluntary trades, end up with the most resources. Incompetent people quickly lose their resources to more competent people in efficient markets. This makes sure resources are used in an effective manner.”

Again, it is true in an isolated way. However, not everyone is equal in capacities and it is impossible in many cases to decide if a person has natural limitations (ie. low IQ) or is just “incompetent”. There is no black and white to the human condition. Everyone is different and my view is that every human being deserves to live a decent life without deprivation since it is technically possible and feasible. In this you also remove about 90% of crime by meeting human needs directly as well, as per the interests of TZM. (see the book to the stats)

A well meaning, hard working person might very well fail miserably… or maybe they do not have the cut-throat mentality or have an ethical disagreement with the way competition works in the market. There are many, many other variations than “incompetence” to justify a person’s lack of ability in the economic context and to think it is hence justified to remove people’s ability to have a quality standard of living because they don’t “fit” the model – is structural bigotry, pure and simple.

As far as:
>”Capitalism tells us what kind of work is highly valuable. If you want to make money, study to do that kind of work. With internet, anyone can study almost anything. There are no excuses.”<

There are no excuses? What if you had a disease that made you quadriplegic or you had exposure to a toxic chemical that harmed your brain functions? Competition in the market is also about angling and hustling as much as it is about “working hard”. What if you can’t afford the internet?

Once again, it assumes everyone is the same – an equal playing field – and have the same capacities in the arena of market competition. This isn’t so and it is deeply twisted to say the market itself should be the judge of people’s self-worth.

As far as:
“Scarcity is a fact of life. End of story!”

Last I checked the entire point of an economic system is to manage scarcity. However, declaring “scarcity is a fact of life” does not mean achieving an abundance in terms of use (meaning there is substantially more than enough over time to meet the needs of everyone), is thus irrelevant.

I would hope that would be partly the goal of any economy from the standpoint of well-being, right? The difference between the market system and an NLRBE is the focus. The market likes scarcity as it creates increased profits. It is a scarcity preserving system because if there was an abundance, the market would fail.

A NLRBE is hence not “scarcity focused” like the market. It is “abundance focused”. It sees abundance as a goal and hence real technical efficiency (non-market) is key, along with sustainability… as without sustainability principles being technically applied, abundance simply would not happen, by definition.

Anyway. That’s all I have time for. In the end, try to be patient, if you can.
~p

[RealBitcoin]

Capitalism is based on competition, those that cant compete will become employees, those that do will become employers.

If you think your "evil capitalist employer" is abusive, create your own business, and if you provide value, all his employees will go to work for you.


Simple as that. If you need capital: bank loan, crowdfunding,stock market, or savings.


There is no excuse for not having capitalism, except from the crying sheeps that want everything for free, like you. Sorry that is impossible.

[callynyan]

Economy is flawed in itself, mankind could be exploring space but we are chaining ourselves to this 'economy' concept instead.
Still this amount of population could not all be kept at same wealth, a population reduction is a must.

[RealBitcoin]

Economy is flawed in itself, mankind could be exploring space but we are chaining ourselves to this 'economy' concept instead.
Still this amount of population could not all be kept at same wealth, a population reduction is a must.

And who will build spaceships, government?

All government space programs exist for 60-70 years yet they could not even build a spaceship that can go past the moon.

If it were private, we would already be at the other side of the galaxy.

[callynyan]

Economy is flawed in itself, mankind could be exploring space but we are chaining ourselves to this 'economy' concept instead.
Still this amount of population could not all be kept at same wealth, a population reduction is a must.

And who will build spaceships, government?

All government space programs exist for 60-70 years yet they could not even build a spaceship that can go past the moon.

If it were private, we would already be at the other side of the galaxy.

It is going to be private just not for profit, like at all.

[RealBitcoin]

Economy is flawed in itself, mankind could be exploring space but we are chaining ourselves to this 'economy' concept instead.
Still this amount of population could not all be kept at same wealth, a population reduction is a must.

And who will build spaceships, government?

All government space programs exist for 60-70 years yet they could not even build a spaceship that can go past the moon.

If it were private, we would already be at the other side of the galaxy.

It is going to be private just not for profit, like at all.

Any why would anybody waste years of his life (which is scarce, the only resouce you cannot create: time) to work on something that wont earn him anything?

Would you spend 50 years of your life building a road with your hands which will then be destroyed by another guy that doesnt like it?

[ngupowered]

Would you spend 50 years of your life building a road with your hands which will then be destroyed by another guy that doesnt like it?

Why would you spend 50 years of your life building a road in a system that makes it profitable for the other guy to destroy it because he is your competitor?