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bram_vnl
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January 06, 2015, 12:18:23 AM
 #7361



FINISH

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ny2cafuse
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January 06, 2015, 12:22:30 AM
 #7362

Looks good, Bram!

-Fuse

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January 06, 2015, 12:28:24 AM
 #7363

Looks good, Bram!

-Fuse

Thanks fuse!

I'm sorry I can not join the conversation it's too difficult for me
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January 06, 2015, 12:40:17 AM
 #7364

Looks good, Bram!

-Fuse

Thanks fuse!

I'm sorry I can not join the conversation it's too difficult for me

No worries, mate... google translate only goes so far Smiley

I'm trying daily to keep up with the Gulden forum posts in Dutch... I know how you feel!

-Fuse

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January 06, 2015, 12:45:01 AM
 #7365

Looks good, Bram!

-Fuse

Thanks fuse!

I'm sorry I can not join the conversation it's too difficult for me

No worries, mate... google translate only goes so far Smiley

I'm trying daily to keep up with the Gulden forum posts in Dutch... I know how you feel!

-Fuse

sorry, I 'm going to do now in English in this topic

it's time to sleep bye bye
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January 06, 2015, 05:45:49 AM
 #7366

I've had time to reflect on the changes I posted, the things /GJ noted, and I've come to some conclusions. People are not going to like what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway to get it off my chest.

6. Responsibility You are responsible and the rest of the community. If you say that we have to implement something, we will. That is what’s happening with DIGI, but Geert-Johan looks at the code before he implements something. And in this case he saw that some things didn’t add up, things that could’ve caused bigger problems. Bigger than we’re facing now. But Geert-Johan can’t just say that something isn’t right. He needs to present proof and discuss this with the person that delivered the code, in this case Fuse. After this conversation it was decided not to implement this code, but further development was chosen.

It's the exact reason I asked Rijk to double-check the code on his end(/GJ). I knew the code was alpha. It wasn't catastrophically incorrect though.

The problems Rijk mentions is that the line in the code we used to adjust the difficulty(albeit incorrectly) would have caused the past blocks on chain to not sync properly if you resynced. That portion of code had nothing to do with algorithm, as noted by /GJ in IRC chat. So the answer to this is to not change it from it's original version. DIGI would have reacted the same way with modified values in this block of code(the correct difficulty adjustment code):

Code:
    if (nActualTimespan < (retargetTimespan - (retargetTimespan/4)) ) nActualTimespan = (retargetTimespan - (retargetTimespan/4));
    if (nActualTimespan > (retargetTimespan + (retargetTimespan/2)) ) nActualTimespan = (retargetTimespan + (retargetTimespan/2));


My error wasn't catastrophic, and it could have been easily corrected. DIGI would still react similar to the graphs I provided.  We can move past this "it's done when it's done, so stop asking us about when it will be done" mantra that we've heard for 4 months now.

/GJ could go back to working on the simulator, and proving it's results against a testnet's results. This is still paramount to it's credibility in my mind. Yes, math is math and it will never be wrong... unless it is wrong or there are variables not introduced. Relying strictly on an unproven simulator is as blind-sighted as implementing a community member's code without looking over it first.


7. Decentral If Geert-Johan didn’t look at the code, or hadn’t discovered that the code wasn’t good, we would’ve implemented it. Because the community asked for it, it is decentral, so the majority decides. Very simple. Realize that this comes with huge responsibility. Everyone has that responsibility, you help decide Guldencoin’s future.

No, you wouldn't have. You would have always had him look at it. That's what a smart dev would do. Additionally, if the code was in question, and a solution was needed to stem the effects of CM, the DIGI devs could be contacted to help with the custom changes. They openly announce their willingness to help coins implement DIGI. It's not because they get paid for it, it's because they know it's the algorithm that best mitigates multipool influence. But this was rejected by /GJ on a few separate occasions because "the change is not difficult". If it's not difficult, why not make it happen?

Additionally, people are correct in that no difficulty algo right now will do that completely. No difficulty algo will do that in the foreseeable future of crypto. Yes, you could move to CPU/GPU based mining or POS, but you lose a considerable amount of community in making those changes. DIGI buys us time, and aligns us with the current era of MP mitigation. I feel like we're sitting around waiting for someone, maybe /GJ, to develop the next best algo ever. But how long is that going to take, and is NLG going to be the guinea pig for the implementation?

But the real question here is this- if /GJ is checking community submitted work, who is checking him? This presents us with a single point of failure and acceptance. Who checked /GJ's DGW3 code results when the decision was made to implement it? I'm going to guess it was /GJ. There needs to be a second set of eyes in the code team. My code errors prove that. There always needs to be someone to check the other person's work. Who is the backup in the dev team?


8. What now? Geert-Johan is continuing work on the simulator and will test DIGI too, if the outcome says that DIGI is the solution, that will be implemented. If DIGI is not the solution, Geert-Johan will continue the development of the custom algorithm. This is the path that we are following and is, according to us, the only solution. Note, according to us. Other developers can look for a different solution, in the end the community decides.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. For anything to be taken seriously now, it will have to be proven by the simulator. The simulator that hasn't been proven against testnet data yet. But the problem lies in that the simulator is in GO. Sure it's a hop, skip, and a jump away from C++, but how many people honestly know GO in this community besides the person who wrote the simulator? So where does that leave us? Again... with a single point of failure and acceptance. We can't just drop some code in to the simulator and test things. We need to port it to GO ourselves, or present it to /GJ to port it.

There's no community involvement when the community isn't able to be involved. Yes, /GJ is a great coder... we know that. But aligning the code so he is the only coder is not the way to go.  So yes, learn GO, outsource a dev, etc etc etc.

Fact of the matter is that /GJ had 4 months to focus on algo development. Instead of the algo change, he coded a simulator, still unproven, with an algo we've already proved doesn't work. Wouldn't it have been more productive to start with something that you would want to test, rather than something you want to move away from? DGW3 doesn't work. We don't need to know why after 4 months of dealing with it's failure. Move on to something else that does.


9. Communication There are a lot of questions about this, with most frequently: When is it done? I can understand that, but unfortunately the answer is short: when it’s done. That’s the way it is. I have asked Geert-Johan to just focus on development and not on updates. He can’t say when it’ll be done, but he will solve it. Maybe other developers can give this information and present a specific roadmap.

Actions will always speak louder than words.

It took my team 1-2 weeks to change the code(yes, slightly incorrect), set up 2 pools, confirming nodes around the world, a block explorer, and test mining on a testnet. 24Kilo's 14yo son wrote a pearl script to pull data from the debug.log files to parse block data before we had a block explorer, giving us early block difficulty change data. In two weeks we were able to provided more direct effort towards making a change than we've seen in 4 months of CM rape. We got tired of waiting and we acted. I'm glad we did, regardless of the final outcome. If my team lost face with our inability to provide 100% correct code, I'm ok with that.

So take my post as being overly critical, or angry, or short-minded, or whatever you want to take it as. To me, it's just me being honest to myself and saying what I'm thinking. Some people may not like that, but like I said, I'm in it for the long haul. Like me or hate me, my pool will continue to run, my physical coins will continue to sell, and the Criptoe team will continue to try to provide additional support to NLG in any way possible.  Just don't expect us to accept inaction... we've been waiting for 4 months too long now for this change.

-Fuse

LTEX have you got my 20k NLG ready?

BITWIN.

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LTEX
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January 06, 2015, 08:55:52 AM
 #7367

-- Big Snip --

LTEX have you got my 20k NLG ready?

It's here: GaDigikXYG4WFZKVCUcLvb5M4TZA81qr2g  Wink

I'll send you the private key by PM once I'm confident I actually lost the bet...

A fool will just look at the finger, even if it points to paradise!
Jero
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January 06, 2015, 09:16:55 AM
 #7368

-- Big Snip --

LTEX have you got my 20k NLG ready?

It's here: GaDigikXYG4WFZKVCUcLvb5M4TZA81qr2g  Wink

I'll send you the private key by PM once I'm confident I actually lost the bet...

Amazing! This is what I like of this community, great and honorable!
Wonder who wins and how this turns out  Wink

https://www.guldenweb.com - Het laatste nieuws over Gulden
investeerder
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January 06, 2015, 10:15:44 AM
 #7369

-- Big Snip --

LTEX have you got my 20k NLG ready?

It's here: GaDigikXYG4WFZKVCUcLvb5M4TZA81qr2g  Wink

I'll send you the private key by PM once I'm confident I actually lost the bet...

Amazing! This is what I like of this community, great and honorable!
Wonder who wins and how this turns out  Wink

LTEX you can use the 20k towards your project if it will help as a extra bonus for your distribution plans.

BITWIN.

██████████████████████
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Jero
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January 06, 2015, 10:23:24 AM
 #7370

-- Big Snip --

LTEX have you got my 20k NLG ready?

It's here: GaDigikXYG4WFZKVCUcLvb5M4TZA81qr2g  Wink

I'll send you the private key by PM once I'm confident I actually lost the bet...

Amazing! This is what I like of this community, great and honorable!
Wonder who wins and how this turns out  Wink

LTEX you can use the 20k towards your project if it will help as a extra bonus for your distribution plans.

You guys keep me amazing  Grin Hope the algo change will come quick after which we can work together to make this project full-grown!

https://www.guldenweb.com - Het laatste nieuws over Gulden
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January 06, 2015, 11:44:30 AM
 #7371

9. Communication
There are a lot of questions about this, with most frequently: When is it done? I can understand that, but unfortunately the answer is short: when it’s done. That’s the way it is. I have asked Geert-Johan to just focus on development and not on updates. He can’t say when it’ll be done, but he will solve it. Maybe other developers can give this information and present a specific roadmap.

10. Summary
We are a tiny part of Guldencoin, developing our own way for Guldencoin. We are solving the multipool issue, but we can’t say how long it will take. Guldencoin is decentral, we listen to the majority.

Everyone can help find a solution.

@Fuse

Because you have the technical knowhow I wonder if you can help me to set op a roadmap voor delivering the algo change? What has to be done? How much time it will app. cost etc. We can publish this right here in this thread and also at the official forum.

@Rijk

People are getting frustrated about the lack of communication. There is not enough insight in the progress and some don't know how to contribute. Maybe some open todo's can be published and discussed by community  in advance. Also, many are tired of waiting, it's like the train stopped in september and we still wait for it to take off. Also remember the crowd funded IOS wallet. There is impatience and damage will happen if there is no action asap. I the mean time people invested heavily in money (remember the buy support at 800, 900 and 1000 sats) and also in time, if they hook off the community will be decimated.

With this message I hope we will have a roadmap soon which make discussion and insight in progress more open/clear. We, the community, have the right to get informed correctly and on a regularly basis. I understand how the Guldencoin (dev) team operates and yes, no updates only results matter. But not in this case. This is something of more importance, the basis of the whole Guldencoin project, the network, is a matter of us all.

Hope you respect this input and follow the right direction.



https://www.guldenweb.com - Het laatste nieuws over Gulden
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January 06, 2015, 11:58:08 AM
 #7372

In need of a cool, new watch to keep track of time in 2015? Buy a wooden one at https://houtenhorloge.nl!

http://plaatjesdump.nl/upload/39a01d55bfcb1bb150859eab6a208769.png

https://houtenhorloge.nl
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January 06, 2015, 12:26:00 PM
 #7373

https://forum.guldencoin.com/index.php?topic=508.msg9476#msg9476 Almost there, I think  Cool


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Nice one!
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January 06, 2015, 12:28:19 PM
 #7374


Yeah! Thanks for the update!

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January 06, 2015, 12:40:48 PM
 #7375



finally yeah Grin
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January 06, 2015, 12:52:52 PM
 #7376

In need of a cool, new watch to keep track of time in 2015? Buy a wooden one at https://houtenhorloge.nl!



https://houtenhorloge.nl

http://www.guldencoinlinks.nl/betalen.html
http://www.guldencoinlinks.nl/Gadgets.html

http://www.reddit.com/r/GuldenCoin
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=896526.msg10057187#msg10057187
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=886372.msg10057201#msg10057201
https://twitter.com/GuldencoinWeb/status/552439604683759616
https://twitter.com/coin_online/status/552447166573473792
pijpenstelen
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January 06, 2015, 01:28:17 PM
 #7377

https://forum.guldencoin.com/index.php?topic=508.msg9476#msg9476 Almost there, I think  Cool


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In need of a cool, new watch to keep track of time in 2015? Buy a wooden one at https://houtenhorloge.nl!



https://houtenhorloge.nl

Nice one!

Compliments of the season to everyone! Has 2015 been alright for most?

Great Great updates for 2015 already!!

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ArieNLG
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January 06, 2015, 02:24:47 PM
 #7378

So the big question is how long to a new algo? Testing is very good of course but on the moment we drive with a broken car, would it be no better that we implement a temporary algo on the first place asap? and test later in a stress/rape free zone Huh
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January 06, 2015, 02:37:48 PM
 #7379

So the big question is how long to a new algo? Testing is very good of course but on the moment we drive with a broken car, would it be no better that we implement a temporary algo on the first place asap? and test later in a stress/rape free zone Huh

https://forum.guldencoin.com/index.php?topic=745.45
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January 06, 2015, 03:32:27 PM
 #7380

Considering the conversation has been taken to the Dutch section of the Gulden forum, I'm going to take it that my input isn't welcome anymore.

Either way, if Google translate is halfway correct and I'm reading it right, Rijk and the team will look at ready to pull Git code.  So I updated the git-pull, correcting the errors that /GJ noted. 

https://github.com/nlgcoin/guldencoin/pull/8

Stop making excuses, stop dragging your feet, and just fix the damn algorithm already.

-Fuse

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