[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[Spekulatius]

Hi again,

does someone tried this "merged mining" of BCN, MRO and QCN with this Fantomcoin (FCN) ?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=598823.0

Thx, BitWalker

Good question.

[GreekBitcoin]

Hi again,

does someone tried this "merged mining" of BCN, MRO and QCN with this Fantomcoin (FCN) ?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=598823.0

Thx, BitWalker

Good question.

as far as i know their miners were always really slower than monero miners so there was no point in mining it if you cant mine monero with the same hash you would without mining FCN. And i think the implementation cannot be supported by pools...

[LimLims]

All professional miners dump. It doesn't matter if they are GPU farmers, botnets, cloud miners or something else. They're in business to mine and then get their cash out to recycle it into something else.

Agreed. But consider that this component of overall sell pressure is determined by the proportion of dumped vs held mined coins. That proportion can make a really big difference if there's relatively low volume on the buy side. Whether it's going to be a problem for MRO remains to be seen.

If you want less dumping, get more of the mining into the hands of smaller scale non-professionals. This coin is poised to do just that with the CPU miner.

Mining dynamics tend in the opposite direction (because efficiency wins out, and larger operations are more efficient). But I agree these would help:

The missing pieces are: 1) a more user-friendly wallet, and 2) something to actually do with the damn thing.

[smooth]

If you want less dumping, get more of the mining into the hands of smaller scale non-professionals. This coin is poised to do just that with the CPU miner.

Mining dynamics tend in the opposite direction (because efficiency wins out, and larger operations are more efficient).

Efficiency is a tricky beast though. Someone who already owns a computer for another purpose, doesn't even bother tracking the electricity use for mining because it is too small to matter (or in some cases actually free), and doesn't need any cooling system (not even free flow) because he is operating on a small scale, has a zero cost structure. No professional miner can compete with that on efficiency.

[LimLims]

If you want less dumping, get more of the mining into the hands of smaller scale non-professionals. This coin is poised to do just that with the CPU miner.

Mining dynamics tend in the opposite direction (because efficiency wins out, and larger operations are more efficient).

Efficiency is a tricky beast though. Someone who already owns a computer for another purpose, doesn't even bother tracking the electricity use for mining because it is too small to matter (or in some cases actually free), and doesn't need any cooling system (not even free flow) because he is operating on a small scale, has a zero cost structure. No professional miner can compete with that on efficiency.

Sure. We're effectively arguing the same logic though, from different angles. I'm saying the gpu mining community is comprised of a lot of small scale operations, whereas MRO's current mining distribution would (I expect) be dominated by a few large cloud mining ops. Far, FAR easier & cheaper to scale up cloud mining infrastructure than scaling up GPU mining. So introducing a gpu miner would be moving in the right direction in that respect (not to mention the benefit to adoption, attention, etc).

[smooth]

If you want less dumping, get more of the mining into the hands of smaller scale non-professionals. This coin is poised to do just that with the CPU miner.

Mining dynamics tend in the opposite direction (because efficiency wins out, and larger operations are more efficient).

Efficiency is a tricky beast though. Someone who already owns a computer for another purpose, doesn't even bother tracking the electricity use for mining because it is too small to matter (or in some cases actually free), and doesn't need any cooling system (not even free flow) because he is operating on a small scale, has a zero cost structure. No professional miner can compete with that on efficiency.

Sure. We're effectively arguing the same logic though, from different angles. I'm saying the gpu mining community is comprised of a lot of small scale operations, whereas MRO's current mining distribution would (I expect) be dominated by a few large cloud mining ops. Far, FAR easier & cheaper to scale up cloud mining infrastructure than scaling up GPU mining. So introducing a gpu miner would be moving in the right direction in that respect (not to mention the benefit to adoption, attention, etc).

Show term yes, but long term no. The GPU mining community is orders of magnitudes smaller than the wider community of people with a computer.

Anyway, a GPU miner will happen if it is feasible, which is debatable. You are more than welcome to start a bounty for it, collect donations, etc. as some of us have done for other things we thought were important (GUI, etc.). I happen not to think that GPU mining is that important so I won't participate at this time. If at some point it looks like there are secret GPU miners, then yes I would participate in a bounty to open source them or develop and open source alternative.

[zechiel]

I looked at mining algorithm and I see that pow is calculated over WHOLE block (sha3). Not block header like in bitcoin, but whole block with transactions. Is that true or am I mistaken?

If that's true this means that ignoring transactions gives a small speed boost in mining. That's not very good for the future...

I skimmed the code, and you may be right.

src/cryptonote_core/miner.cpp:

...
      b.nonce = nonce;
      crypto::hash h;
      get_block_longhash(b, h, height);

      if(check_hash(h, local_diff))
      {
        //we lucky!
...

Could a developer comment on that? Will larger blocks hash slower? If so, what incentives do miners have to include more than the coinbase transaction in their blocks (transaction fees seem negligible at the moment imo)?

[smooth]

Will Monero ever reach 0.008? Seems like a constant downfall every day I check poloniex.

Speculation thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=622708.0

[smooth]

I looked at mining algorithm and I see that pow is calculated over WHOLE block (sha3). Not block header like in bitcoin, but whole block with transactions. Is that true or am I mistaken?

If that's true this means that ignoring transactions gives a small speed boost in mining. That's not very good for the future...

I skimmed the code, and you may be right.

src/cryptonote_core/miner.cpp:

...
      b.nonce = nonce;
      crypto::hash h;
      get_block_longhash(b, h, height);

      if(check_hash(h, local_diff))
      {
        //we lucky!
...

Could a developer comment on that? Will larger blocks hash slower? If so, what incentives do miners have to include more than the coinbase transaction in their blocks (transaction fees seem negligible at the moment imo)?

The slow hash is not computed on the entire block, directly. There is an intermediate fast hash, just as with other coins. But just as with other coins it is indeed the case that larger blocks are slower. After all you still have to validate the transactions and compute the block hash. That's why there need to be some transaction fees to get miners to include transactions into a block, otherwise they won't. There can also bit a bit of social pressure to do the right thing. For example, with bitcoin there is no real incentive to include the fee-free high-priority transactions, but most of the big pools do it anyway. With this coin there is not currently a transaction priority mechanism so fee-free transactions are not workable, even if they are workable for bitcoin (which is questionable longer term).

EDIT: BTW transaction fees were raised in the last update and may be raised again. They need to be economically significant.

[zechiel]

I looked at mining algorithm and I see that pow is calculated over WHOLE block (sha3). Not block header like in bitcoin, but whole block with transactions. Is that true or am I mistaken?

If that's true this means that ignoring transactions gives a small speed boost in mining. That's not very good for the future...

I skimmed the code, and you may be right.

src/cryptonote_core/miner.cpp:

...
      b.nonce = nonce;
      crypto::hash h;
      get_block_longhash(b, h, height);

      if(check_hash(h, local_diff))
      {
        //we lucky!
...

Could a developer comment on that? Will larger blocks hash slower? If so, what incentives do miners have to include more than the coinbase transaction in their blocks (transaction fees seem negligible at the moment imo)?

The slow hash is not computed on the entire block, directly. There is an intermediate fast hash, just as with other coins. But just as with other coins it is indeed the case that larger blocks are slower. After all you still have to validate the transactions and compute the block hash. That's why there need to be some transaction fees to get miners to include transactions into a block, otherwise they won't. There can also bit a bit of social pressure to do the right thing. For example, with bitcoin there is no real incentive to include the fee-free high-priority transactions, but most of the big pools do it anyway. With this coin there is not currently a transaction priority mechanism so fee-free transactions are not workable, even if they are workable for bitcoin (which is questionable longer term).

EDIT: BTW transaction fees were raised in the last update and may be raised again. They need to be economically significant.

Looking into the get_block_longhash function I see that you are right. I did not know about that quick tree hash/slow pow hash thing.
Thank you for your quick answer.

[tacotime]

There's a bug inherited by all CryptoNote coins where a transaction gets stuck in the tx_pool because of disagreements between the wallet and daemon. When this happens, your tx fails and doesn't show up on the blockchain, but you start seeing spent key image errors when trying to spend again. This will be fixed in the next release, but for now if you want to send large amounts, do it in batches less than 100 MRO.

The bug was actually not really a bug at all (except in BBR, because they were on the old BCN codebase). At least afaik.

Transaction fees were change to 5 * 10^9 AMU several days ago in the main branch and in the windows client. However, a bunch of users failed to upgrade and sending tx through without proper fees, and their tx were getting stuck in limbo.

All clients need to update their software to the latest fees schedule as previously indicated.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=583449.msg6993826#msg6993826

[dbzenhosting]

Whats going on with the prices? why such major dump? coin dead already? I had tons of hope and hype for this coin... Still mining.

[Spekulatius]

Hi again,

does someone tried this "merged mining" of BCN, MRO and QCN with this Fantomcoin (FCN) ?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=598823.0

Thx, BitWalker

Good question.

as far as i know their miners were always really slower than monero miners so there was no point in mining it if you cant mine monero with the same hash you would without mining FCN. And i think the implementation cannot be supported by pools...

Is the problem that FCN cant keep up with updates to the code base of its merge mined coins? It seems to work for Namecoin though..?

[smooth]

Hi again,

does someone tried this "merged mining" of BCN, MRO and QCN with this Fantomcoin (FCN) ?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=598823.0

Thx, BitWalker

Good question.

as far as i know their miners were always really slower than monero miners so there was no point in mining it if you cant mine monero with the same hash you would without mining FCN. And i think the implementation cannot be supported by pools...

Is the problem that FCN cant keep up with updates to the code base of its merge mined coins? It seems to work for Namecoin though..?

It works for namecoin because the pace of development is much, much slower, and there is also more money involved, even though namecoin is only worth maybe 1% of bitcoin.  1% of a bitcoin block is still significant. FCN is not worth the trouble at this point.

[tacotime]

Just a reminder to everyone to please update their codebase -- a bunch of people experienced failed tx today because their codebase was not on the latest version.

[AlexGR]

There's a bug inherited by all CryptoNote coins where a transaction gets stuck in the tx_pool because of disagreements between the wallet and daemon. When this happens, your tx fails and doesn't show up on the blockchain, but you start seeing spent key image errors when trying to spend again. This will be fixed in the next release, but for now if you want to send large amounts, do it in batches less than 100 MRO.

The bug was actually not really a bug at all (except in BBR, because they were on the old BCN codebase). At least afaik.

Transaction fees were change to 5 * 10^9 AMU several days ago in the main branch and in the windows client. However, a bunch of users failed to upgrade and sending tx through without proper fees, and their tx were getting stuck in limbo.

All clients need to update their software to the latest fees schedule as previously indicated.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=583449.msg6993826#msg6993826

Hmm... that may also present an attack vector, in the sense of someone running intentionally a lot of problematic clients in the network to prevent the network from transacting. Some check has to be performed so that when there is an older client => rejected or something. It's not acceptable to expect 100% compatibility from all so that the network can play.

[Whylolzz]

Hi, could someone help me out?
I've withdrawn Monero from the Cryptonote-exchange site and deposited to my Cryptnote (GUI) wallet but it's still not showing up? It's been around 10 hours now. The status is ready. I used the address under the 'Wallet' tab, copied it to the clipboard and used that address for the money to be deposited into. Is there something else I need to synch for it to show up?

[Patel]

Hi, could someone help me out?
I've withdrawn Monero from the Cryptonote-exchange site and deposited to my Cryptnote (GUI) wallet but it's still not showing up? It's been around 10 hours now. The status is ready. I used the address under the 'Wallet' tab, copied it to the clipboard and used that address for the money to be deposited into. Is there something else I need to synch for it to show up?

Cryptonote-exchange does manual withdrawals, so it probably hasn't processed yet

[Whylolzz]

Hi, could someone help me out?
I've withdrawn Monero from the Cryptonote-exchange site and deposited to my Cryptnote (GUI) wallet but it's still not showing up? It's been around 10 hours now. The status is ready. I used the address under the 'Wallet' tab, copied it to the clipboard and used that address for the money to be deposited into. Is there something else I need to synch for it to show up?

Cryptonote-exchange does manual withdrawals, so it probably hasn't processed yet

Thanks for the response. I hope that's the answer. I've checked my account several times and I don't see any indication that mentions the withdrawal is still pending. I guess I'll just keep waiting.

[dbzenhosting]

The equilibrium is set by spot instance pricing.

I just wanted to address this too: mining costs are a factor underlying price, but ultimately price dynamics are determined by buying & selling, which are in turn determined by humans & emotions. Mining can be unprofitable for weeks/months without nethash suffering (DRK demonstrated this). Or mining profitability can be huge for long periods of time, sustained by strong buy pressure. Or the price can crash and burn, causing miners to leave to the point where nobody bothers anymore. Equilibriums might work on paper, but in practice it's never that neat.

Bottom line is: you can't trust that the price will equilibrate to butt mining costs after a period of hype & speculative adoption. It really could go in any direction depending on competition, media attention, tech problems, all kinds of things really. And the market can be fickle. So it's better to cover your bases where you can.

DRK had pretty good marketing and media attention. Monero hasnt even started yet...

MRO doesn't even have a wallet... we need that first.