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Author Topic: Sia - Siafund Redemption Deadline: June 1st, 2015  (Read 68223 times)
Taek
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May 01, 2014, 06:41:28 AM
Last edit: May 14, 2015, 08:16:57 AM by Taek
 #1



Sia has changed substantially since the creation of this thread. Much of the information, especially in the early pages, is incorrect. A new thread has been created here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1060294.0

Sia is a new cryptocurrency that is being actively developed. We have released a whitepaper, and are in open beta.

About Sia's Technology:

Sia is a proof of work blockchain just like Bitcoin. A single feature is added that which enables clients and hosts to make storage contracts that will automatically be enforced by the network. More can be learned by visiting our website and Github page, and by reading our whitepaper (all available from our website).

About Sia's Economic Model:

Sia compensates hosts using a cryptocurrency. This cryptocurrency, Siacoin, will be easily exchangeable for bitcoins and subsequently USD. When the currency launches, 10,000 siacoins will be mined per day and distributed to hosts according to the volume of storage they offer to the network. The number of coins mined per day will decrease until the 4 year mark, at which point the network will mine coins such that the annual inflation rate is kept permanently at 5%. No coins will be premined.

Storage can only be rented using siacoins. This presents a major inconvenience for most people, so we will be providing a service that allows users to rent storage with USD, transparently exchanging dollars for siacoins behind the scenes. The siacoins spent on storage go directly to the hosts that hold the file, with the exception of a fee. The fee is distributed among the owners of Sianote. Currently, just under 0.5% of all host income has been distributed/sold/circulated as Sianotes on the Nxt Asset Exchange. The devs are no longer selling sianotes directly, they must be bought on an exchange. More can be found at www.siacoin.com/sianotes.html

Use Cases:
Since files are spread across hundreds to thousands of machines on Sia, the throughput for downloading a file is expected to be on the order of gigabits per second. Optimized files can enjoy latencies below 100 milliseconds from nearly anywhere in the world (or just on a single continent if the goal is to save money), and low redundancy files can be maintained at slow but highly reliable speeds for much cheaper than existing cloud storage solutions.

Any static data that already gets transferred over the internet would be more efficient through Sia. Every image on the internet could be embedded through Sia. This reduces the workload and bandwidth costs of webservers and makes websites as a whole cheaper to run. The same also applies to videos, which would substantially lower the barrier to entry for video websites. We plan on making Sia javascript and HTML5 friendly, meaning that pretty much any website will be able to integrate with Sia and pull content from Sia.

Sia is also friendly to applications. Imagine a music library that does all streaming directly from Sia. Right now, services such as Spotify and Pandora stream compressed music, because bandwidth costs are high when moving media around. If they streamed the music from Sia however, the costs would be reduced such that streaming FLAC from Sia would be cheaper than streaming mp3 or ogg from their own servers. Imagine video games that manage save files from Sia. Imagine streaming movies from Sia. Imagine downloading applications from Sia instead of sourceforge, a package-manger mirror, or Steam.
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May 01, 2014, 06:44:21 AM
 #2

are you guys competing against maidsafe and erutheum ?

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May 01, 2014, 06:45:56 AM
 #3

I'll have to count on you guys to build a better coin service that the public can understand more easily then.
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May 01, 2014, 06:50:27 AM
 #4

I would say that we are competing against both maidesafe and etherium.

Though I didn't mention it, Sia intends to include a turing-complete scripting system that should put etherium to shame. This isn't yet designed though (we're saving that problem for last), so perhaps it's too early to be certain that we can do better than etherium.

As for maidsafe, I'm having troubles understanding exactly how their system works. It's not well documented (I guess ours isn't either) and some of the features (like data only being stored on 4 machines) seems really insecure. I'm keeping a close eye on Maidsafe though because they seem to know what they are doing. We are a storage only system however (though we offer turing complete scripting, we don't expect it to compete with a real computing platform like EC2) where Maidsafe is bandwidth and compute as well.
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May 01, 2014, 07:08:58 AM
 #5

Oh this could be huge. I will this thread.
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May 01, 2014, 07:19:26 AM
 #6

any giveaway?

e5iS8ibLHqEX3HagxcS3DrZxyvkhUoUcfN - Energycoin
DJgywHCTvQ4Auo3MJrP3pYdCbzftU4T3kk - Mastiffcoin
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May 01, 2014, 07:27:54 AM
 #7

There's likely to be some giveaway after we launch. One of our fears is that there will be a bunch of people trying to mine and nobody storing data. If there is nobody storing data, people can't mine (it's part of the security of the network, you can only mine once you have something to store). So we might do some giveaways so people can start storing things.

The other bump (looking for a work-around) is that you need to make a down-payment in siacoin before you can start mining. Before Sia is on any exchanges, the only way to start mining will be if someone donates you coins. We'll be passing coins around to help people out. I'm pretty sure though that we'll think of a better way to kick-start the network.

We might also just nix the required down-payment for the first 3 months. It opens up a bunch of attack vectors but if nobody is abusive initially then it won't be a problem.
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May 01, 2014, 08:02:32 AM
 #8

Max Coins is?I want to know the total number of this coin
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May 01, 2014, 10:30:25 AM
 #9

This one looks intresting. I would also like to know the total cap coins.
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May 01, 2014, 12:02:22 PM
 #10

interesting project.
would like to know more details.

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May 01, 2014, 12:10:06 PM
 #11

actually it sound interesting (sound like a bit like torrent...)
But what about the network traffic generated by this ?
What kind of file gets into the storage ?
How do you protect the rest of the computer from being infected by crappy files downloaded there ?

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May 01, 2014, 12:20:02 PM
 #12

A coin im truly excited for  Cool . I was excited for storagecoin but since it was a scammers atempt to steal from your idea i am very excited for this coin.

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May 01, 2014, 12:24:12 PM
 #13

Thanks for you Awesome Work and Support !!!
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May 01, 2014, 12:25:34 PM
 #14

Thanks for you Awesome Work and Support !!!
Huh random post ?

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May 01, 2014, 12:43:34 PM
 #15

Maidsafe has been developing for 7 years.
You think you and your anonymous team are going to be able to accomplish what they couldn't in 7 years with a large team?

This is not the first intended "proof of storage" system to grace our forums.
Do you have any proof of concept yet?
It would be nice if this was real and not a scam, but you are biting off a very big piece of pie.

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May 01, 2014, 01:10:33 PM
 #16

Maidsafe has been developing for 7 years.
You think you and your anonymous team are going to be able to accomplish what they couldn't in 7 years with a large team?

This is not the first intended "proof of storage" system to grace our forums.
Do you have any proof of concept yet?
It would be nice if this was real and not a scam, but you are biting off a very big piece of pie.





That sounds really great. But  it isn't appropriate   to advertise here .
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May 01, 2014, 01:11:38 PM
 #17

Maidsafe has been developing for 7 years.
You think you and your anonymous team are going to be able to accomplish what they couldn't in 7 years with a large team?

This is not the first intended "proof of storage" system to grace our forums.
Do you have any proof of concept yet?
It would be nice if this was real and not a scam, but you are biting off a very big piece of pie.

I always support the cautious approach. But did you check the github, the sia-dev group history, and the general profile of the devs (who don't appear to be anonymous)? Also bear in mind the summary does state the release is a long way off. Agree that the problem sia is looking at is not an easy one, but if it's an outright scam it's a very elegantly engineered one!

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May 01, 2014, 02:03:26 PM
 #18

In this system, I wonder how the blockchain consensus will be reached.
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May 01, 2014, 02:05:21 PM
 #19

Sia intends to include a turing-complete scripting system that should put etherium to shame. This isn't yet designed though

HERE let me throw BTC at you.

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May 01, 2014, 03:27:38 PM
 #20

Max Coins is?I want to know the total number of this coin

"network will mine coins such that the annual inflation rate is kept permanently at 5%"

No maximum. Every year the coin volume will go up by 5%. We do it this way because we want the coins to be about the storage, not about the speculation. There will be explosive growth in the first 4 years however, so there's still a ton of opportunity to jump on the coin early.


actually it sound interesting (sound like a bit like torrent...)
But what about the network traffic generated by this ?
What kind of file gets into the storage ?
How do you protect the rest of the computer from being infected by crappy files downloaded there ?

It's a lot like bittorrent, but instead of each file being entirely stored on each seeder, each file is only partially redundant (you get to pick the redundancy). It's hard to guess at exactly how much network traffic there will be, but probably a lot for people who are hosts.  There will be support for capping your bandwidth, though this will affect your income. (The model for charging for bandwidth isn't worked out yet).

Any file can get into storage. The clients will encrypt them first, but the network doesn't care. If you want to upload an unencrypted file (so it's available to the public), you will be able to do so. I'm not sure what you mean by "crappy" file, but it's just storage. If someone uploads a virus, it can't hurt your computer because the client doesn't open or read files, only stores them. If you try opening it with some program however, it might infect you.

Maidsafe has been developing for 7 years.
You think you and your anonymous team are going to be able to accomplish what they couldn't in 7 years with a large team?

This is not the first intended "proof of storage" system to grace our forums.
Do you have any proof of concept yet?
It would be nice if this was real and not a scam, but you are biting off a very big piece of pie.

1. Maidsafe has been working on this since before Bitcoin. A lot of solutions that are now available and have been thought about in greater depth were not available when maidsafe started. I'm pretty sure that if they started now, they would get a lot farther in the same 7 years.
2. The maidsafe project is considerably more ambitious than Sia. They are doing proof-of-bandwidth, proof-of-storage, proof-of-computation, and something related to uptime monitoring. It also seems like they intend files to be mobile (?). Regardless, from the best that I can tell, Maidsafe is much more ambitious than we are, and takes a more complex approach to many of the problems. This will increase the development time.
3. This project is still very ambitious, and is a few months away from a prototype. We are definitely trying to do some very difficult things. We are not asking for money at this point, nor are we giving away coins at this point. We plan to do both in the future, but will wait until we have something more substantial built.

I know that a lot of you are cautious about scams. If you look, you'll see that nowhere in this post or on our github page does a way to pay us appear (no bitcoin addresses, etc.). This project is very real and is very much not a scam; we aren't asking for your money.

Do we have a proof of concept yet?:

Well, we have a working demo that does not a whole lot. This currency is based on quorums, and we just finished building the base for quorums. A bunch of hosts can get online, engage in communication (following Leslie Lamport's solution to the byzantine generals problem) and kick dishonest hosts off the network. At the moment, there is no support for joining with a wallet or storing files. That's what we're working on now. Stay tuned.

In this system, I wonder how the blockchain consensus will be reached.

Each set of 8GB that a miner offers to the network becomes a 'participant'. Each participant downloads and watches a portion of the network, and is paired with 128 other participants (chosen randomly). The 128 operate together reaching consensus using the Byzantine Generals solution provided by Leslie Lamport in his paper "The Byzantine Generals Problem." The pdf can be be found in the doc/ folder. We used the signed solution, meaning every honest host in a quorum is guaranteed to reach the same block as every other honest host within the quorum.

Quorums are arranged into a tree. Each quorum has a set of sibling quorums that all share the same parent.

When a block is found, it's announced to the sibling quorums, and to the parent quorum. The exact algorithm is not pinned down, but each participant will send the block to 2 or 3 other random participants. This keeps communication to a minimum. A group of dishonest hosts could announce a dishonest block, so there is protect against this; upon receiving a new block, each host will fire off a confirmation to the other participants in the announcing quorum. With very high probability, at least one honest host will see the dishonest block, and will be able to alert the receiving quorum about the dishonesty. After we pick the exact numbers, we will write a formal algorithms with proofs demonstrating what attacks are possible and with what probabilities the attacks will succeed. (Our target is to make the attacks as unlikely to succeed as double-spends on the Bitcoin network when an equivalent volume of hosts are dishonest).

Does that make sense? It's very different from any existing model, using a bunch of communicating quorums instead of using a single large blockchain. The primary reason for doing this is because Sia will have a lot more information in the blockchain than Bitcoin. For example, the header data of every single file on the network is stored in the blockchain. If every miner needed all of that data, you'd be looking at hundreds of gigabytes even before figuring out which miners had which files. A tree was absolutely needed.

We believe the algorithm to secure, but that needs to be confirmed by others. At this point, the algorithm is not formally written down, which makes it hard. Expect to have something more concrete regarding quorum consensus in the next 2 weeks.
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May 01, 2014, 09:20:41 PM
 #21

Interested.

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May 01, 2014, 09:22:53 PM
 #22

What is Sia? Security Industry Association Smiley

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May 01, 2014, 10:19:26 PM
 #23

Sia is the Egyptian personification of wisdom, or something like that. It ended up not being exactly what I thought it was when I originally picked the name, but I like it nonetheless. It's not an acronym or anything, just a single syllable.
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May 02, 2014, 06:53:33 AM
 #24

I will be monitoring this thread with my both eyes.
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May 02, 2014, 01:28:49 PM
 #25

Interesting, I really like this idea. Useful work instead of performing wasted computations is definitely going in the right direction.

What are some use-cases for this? For example, if I owned a company, I would still want internal data storage within my company, if anything, to save costs on bandwidth. The only applications I can think of (right now) for this kind of distributed storage is similar to what I would upload to dropbox, which is free up to a certain point. And, I suppose, for those concerned about censorship.

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May 02, 2014, 01:30:16 PM
 #26

Interested in this great project and idea.

 
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May 02, 2014, 04:41:08 PM
 #27

What are some use-cases for this? For example, if I owned a company, I would still want internal data storage within my company, if anything, to save costs on bandwidth. The only applications I can think of (right now) for this kind of distributed storage is similar to what I would upload to dropbox, which is free up to a certain point. And, I suppose, for those concerned about censorship.

We're expecting throughput for a file to be on the order of gigabits per second. Latency on low-redundancy files will be on the order of 100 milliseconds. So, you could theoretically boot your operating system from Sia instead of a local hard drive, given that gigabits per second is close to what SSDs can achieve. The 100 milliseconds isn't typically a problem, but could be for disk-intensive applications.

So the biggest bottleneck is probably the price of bandwidth. If you're a corporation like Google, you probably wouldn't want to use Sia to process search requests, as I'd imagine your bandwidth prices would be too high.

But anything that's already going over a wire would be fair game. Imagine if all images on the web were embedded directly from Sia. This could reduce hosting costs for many companies without degrading the user experience. Especially for video websites, this would be a huge deal. Right now hosting and streaming video is very expensive, and Sia directly addresses these costs without adding any additional expenses with regards to bandwidth. Pretty much any static webpage would also be supported.

Backups like Dropbox are an obvious use case. But applications could also talk directly to Sia. Save-data from video games could use Sia, your music library could stream directly from Sia, and your movie library too if you have a strong enough internet connection.
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May 02, 2014, 10:26:16 PM
 #28

I read your whitepaper a while ago and was intrigued by the ideas presented. Seems like storJ, maidsafe et al have a little competition. I did join a while ago to the IRC channel but there was no activity there at the time.

I hope you learn from the lessons of the encumbered maidsafe IPO for issuance of Siastock. I think a decentralised fundraising on a platform such as CounterParty, where users can directly send BTC, and later trade shares with no requirement for proprietary MSC style tokens  would be a good fit.

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May 03, 2014, 12:42:37 AM
 #29

I did join a while ago to the IRC channel but there was no activity there at the time.

Sorry about that. The IRC channel has been inactive for a while because for the most part it's just 2 people living in the same timezone. After going a few weeks with no messages, we stopped checking. If this starts gaining momentum however we'll bring it back.

I hope you learn from the lessons of the encumbered maidsafe IPO for issuance of Siastock. I think a decentralised fundraising on a platform such as CounterParty, where users can directly send BTC, and later trade shares with no requirement for proprietary MSC style tokens  would be a good fit.

Looking at the maidsafe results, what we might end up doing is selling 'tokens' for 0.001btc each. We'd sell for a week or so, and then at the end we'd divide X% among all the tokens that got sold. Or maybe we'd set up a dynamic price, so each token is worth 0.0Y%, but the cost of a token changes as people buy them up or do not buy them up. We'd want something that would end up being fair, such that everybody interested got siastock and had at least 2 weeks to get in. I'm really not sure what the best approach would be. For those curious, we'd be wanting on the order of 200 bitcoins. We'd be happy to accept more of course, but less wouldn't give us enough money to work on Sia full time. If somehow things exploded and we ended up with 500 or 2000 bitcoins, we'd probably hire a few extra developers to help us out in the spirit of trying to release quicker. We would also put some money aside for security audits of the beta.

Now what if I upload, say, child porn?

(better to ask that question now than to wait until it happens)

That's a good question. We are legally required to do everything in our power to take CP and other illegal files and DMCA'd content off of the network. But just like the creators of bittorrent, Sia is a protocol so I don't know how responsible we'd be for what happened. In the worst case, the NSA forces us to back-door the protocol such that we can censor any file. I don't think this is a realistic outcome.

The US Government has been playing nice with bitcoin. Coinbase, Bitstamp, Bitcoin Foundation, etc. have not so far been held responsible for the way that people use bitcoin. I'm under the belief that Sia would work the same way. If child porn ended up on Sia, the burden falls upon the uploader and the people linking to the uploaded file. For many reasons, I think it would be very bad to enable built-in censorship of files on Sia. If we were pressured to, we might even be able to get some human rights groups to fight for us in court. I have no idea.

Another example is Tor, a technology that has enable child porn in particular for a long time. Tor is a legally protected application. It's not the Tor devs or the relay nodes that are child pornographers, and they don't host Tor to enable child pornography. People who upload illegal content to Tor are not protected, but the ecosystem is protected, and they do have powerful legal groups ready to fight for them.

Censorship is always a difficult thing to talk about, because nobody wants to enable activity like child pornography, least of all us. At the same time, we don't want to enable the government to censor things like criticisms of the people in power. As far as Sia is concerned, if you enable one you enable the other, and you are left trusting that the person in charge of censoring child porn will choose not to censor other actions like criticism of the government.

We very much want to be viewed as "good guys" in the eyes of our government (which happens to be the US government). I have no idea what this will entail or what court decisions might be made. I do think that Maidsafe, Cryptosphere, Datacoin, and other such projects are going to run into the same exact problems.

If I recall, wasn't child porn stored in the Bitcoin blockchain? Didn't someone find some way to encode an illicit photo into a set of transactions? I know other things (like Bitcoin's whitepaper) have been encoded into the blockchain. What is the legal response in Bitcoin's case?
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May 04, 2014, 12:09:10 AM
 #30

Is it possible to get notified when the IPO starts? With a pling in my bitcointalk-inbox or likewise ...
Interested as I am, it won't be possible to check this thread every day.

Thanks for stopping me from putting money into StorageCoin Smiley I was just about to...

And, hey, let's stop talking about child porn... it is irrelevant to crypto coins. It's like connecting the invention of electricity and people watching too much TV, they are unrelated. The dominant coins of the future will be anonymous and BitCoin will be put in nursery.

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May 04, 2014, 02:59:10 PM
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We'll be notifying everyone who's expressed interest at least 2 weeks before we do any sort of IPO.
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May 04, 2014, 06:57:03 PM
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interested

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May 04, 2014, 08:02:18 PM
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This looks promising  but I suppose there will be quite a few bummers on the road.

I hope the devs are bunch of strong willed f*#kers Smiley

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May 05, 2014, 02:08:00 AM
 #34

Interested in this Innovation project and idea.
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May 06, 2014, 01:44:07 PM
 #35

Interested.
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May 06, 2014, 01:53:28 PM
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i am in...would keep focusing to see if it go a long way
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May 06, 2014, 02:04:24 PM
 #37

It give me a feeling that this coin is good enough. I will invest. Cool Cool
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May 06, 2014, 02:07:22 PM
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Interested.
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May 07, 2014, 10:08:52 PM
 #39

Interested.

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May 07, 2014, 10:36:26 PM
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Interested.
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May 08, 2014, 04:15:40 AM
 #41

Dev here. Just wanted to post an update since it's been a few days.

Luke and I just cemented our summer - we've both just turned down full time positions and will be working on Sia full time. This week has been mostly about updating our whitepaper. It's currently at version 0.3 at can be found here.

We're not very far away from having software that can upload and house files redundantly (and be self repairing), and hope to be inviting early testers by June. A lot of features that make the system as a whole secure will not be in place at this point, so be careful about what you upload and how much stake you put into the system. In the testing stages, data will almost certainly be lost as we stress test the system and simulate catastrophes.

We've also been trying to get a website together the past two days. Mostly with bootstrap but neither of us have much experience with web dev. Hopefully we'll have something up soon.


This looks promising  but I suppose there will be quite a few bummers on the road.

I hope the devs are bunch of strong willed f*#kers Smiley

 Wink Not expecting anything easy, that's for sure.
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May 09, 2014, 09:51:01 AM
 #42

I like this coin !! ;)When the ipo?
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May 09, 2014, 10:26:55 AM
 #43

Interested  Grin
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May 09, 2014, 01:20:41 PM
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anyone else have a very good feeling about this coin?
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May 11, 2014, 09:34:45 PM
 #45

Hi, Sia dev here!

We're pleased to announce 3 things: a website, a whitepaper, and a pre-IPO!

Website: www.siacoin.com
Whitepaper: www.siacoin.com/whitepaper.pdf

Pre-IPO:

We'll be doing a pre-IPO, which means selling 15% of all Siastock. As a reminder, Sia uses Siacoin, a non-premined currency that is used to rent storage from Sia. 3.9% of all coins spent on storage are taken as a fee and distributed to the owners of Siastock, a tradeable asset built into Sia. Owning Siastock gives you a guaranteed income proportional to the value of storage being rented from the Sia network.

Stock has been chosen as an alternative to premining. As far as I'm aware, we are the first cryptocurrency to introduce stock as an idea, and we believe it is a much cleaner solution for early-backer income.

Luke and I (the two primary devs) have turned down comfy full time positions at Google and Akamai as software engineers so that we can focus entirely on Sia. However, we do not have sufficient savings to support development. This pre-IPO will give us the funds we need to put food on the table and a roof over our heads. (And insurance, transportation, etc. Living expenses.)

Unfortunately, this means that we can't use an escrow. We will run out of money before Sia is finished, which is why we are selling 15% of all Siastock at such an early stage.

Sia is the most efficient storage solution that I've ever read about. It's as cheap as buying consumer grade hardware, it's got low latency, high throughput, and is highly resilient to disasters that could take many hosts offline simultaneously. Sia's feature set is superior to existing cloud storage solutions offered by Amazon, Microsoft, Google, etc. all while being only 20% of the price. If Sia takes off, you can expect hundreds of millions to billions of dollars per year being spent renting storage. 3.9% of all of this will be going to the owners of Siastock, and we are making 15% of all Siastock available for purchase for a total of 250btc.

The IPO will most likely involve using the Nxt Asset Exchange, and will most likely start during the last week of May or the first week of June.

Future Plans:
After Sia is completed and fully working we'll be selling another round of Siastock, probably 25%. This will be in the hopes of raising multiple millions of dollars. That funding will give us enough for developers, security audits, marketing, etc. Sia has the capability to replace all of the corporate and centralized cloud storage solutions. We're going to need a lot of manpower and market power in order to make that happen. We'll also need Sia libraries in every major programming language, a dead simple API, an Amazon compatible API, (perhaps a dropbox compatibe API), etc. We can also replace all streaming services such as Netflix, Spotify, etc, and that will require a lot of manpower and market power as well.

The point here is that our future plans are very big. We're substantially more than a cryptocurrency, we're the next generation of the internet, the so called 'fifth layer.' We want to make this happen, and we need your help to do that.

Thanks!
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May 12, 2014, 12:38:49 AM
 #46

Hi, Sia dev here!

We're pleased to announce 3 things: a website, a whitepaper, and a pre-IPO!

Website: www.siacoin.com
Whitepaper: www.siacoin.com/whitepaper.pdf

Pre-IPO:

We'll be doing a pre-IPO, which means selling 15% of all Siastock. As a reminder, Sia uses Siacoin, a non-premined currency that is used to rent storage from Sia. 3.9% of all coins spent on storage are taken as a fee and distributed to the owners of Siastock, a tradeable asset built into Sia. Owning Siastock gives you a guaranteed income proportional to the value of storage being rented from the Sia network.

Stock has been chosen as an alternative to premining. As far as I'm aware, we are the first cryptocurrency to introduce stock as an idea, and we believe it is a much cleaner solution for early-backer income.

Luke and I (the two primary devs) have turned down comfy full time positions at Google and Akamai as software engineers so that we can focus entirely on Sia. However, we do not have sufficient savings to support development. This pre-IPO will give us the funds we need to put food on the table and a roof over our heads. (And insurance, transportation, etc. Living expenses.)

Unfortunately, this means that we can't use an escrow. We will run out of money before Sia is finished, which is why we are selling 15% of all Siastock at such an early stage.

Sia is the most efficient storage solution that I've ever read about. It's as cheap as buying consumer grade hardware, it's got low latency, high throughput, and is highly resilient to disasters that could take many hosts offline simultaneously. Sia's feature set is superior to existing cloud storage solutions offered by Amazon, Microsoft, Google, etc. all while being only 20% of the price. If Sia takes off, you can expect hundreds of millions to billions of dollars per year being spent renting storage. 3.9% of all of this will be going to the owners of Siastock, and we are making 15% of all Siastock available for purchase for a total of 250btc.

The IPO will most likely involve using the Nxt Asset Exchange, and will most likely start during the last week of May or the first week of June.

Future Plans:
After Sia is completed and fully working we'll be selling another round of Siastock, probably 25%. This will be in the hopes of raising multiple millions of dollars. That funding will give us enough for developers, security audits, marketing, etc. Sia has the capability to replace all of the corporate and centralized cloud storage solutions. We're going to need a lot of manpower and market power in order to make that happen. We'll also need Sia libraries in every major programming language, a dead simple API, an Amazon compatible API, (perhaps a dropbox compatibe API), etc. We can also replace all streaming services such as Netflix, Spotify, etc, and that will require a lot of manpower and market power as well.

The point here is that our future plans are very big. We're substantially more than a cryptocurrency, we're the next generation of the internet, the so called 'fifth layer.' We want to make this happen, and we need your help to do that.

Thanks!
sorry, what  ever your project is so power and amazing ,without escrow , i'm out.

pos , visa , edge , sim , nxn ,stc ,what, sbc , lax ......    all of them ,  we all remember.....

if dev have confidence in the project , you should same as the dev of gen 2.0 coin just like  EXO , QORA , they are really powerfull and work hard . by the way , they used escrow .



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May 12, 2014, 12:41:38 AM
 #47

Do you know there are someone steal your thought? Stroagecoin, copied everything from Siacoin

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May 12, 2014, 12:42:04 AM
 #48

Interested.

So many coins now.
I all want.
waiting this coins come.

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PixxCoinGet GiveawayCoin(GC)? (Free 100%NO IPO NO POW,PURE POS
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May 12, 2014, 12:45:01 AM
 #49

Hi, Sia dev here!

We're pleased to announce 3 things: a website, a whitepaper, and a pre-IPO!

Website: www.siacoin.com
Whitepaper: www.siacoin.com/whitepaper.pdf

Pre-IPO:

We'll be doing a pre-IPO, which means selling 15% of all Siastock. As a reminder, Sia uses Siacoin, a non-premined currency that is used to rent storage from Sia. 3.9% of all coins spent on storage are taken as a fee and distributed to the owners of Siastock, a tradeable asset built into Sia. Owning Siastock gives you a guaranteed income proportional to the value of storage being rented from the Sia network.

Stock has been chosen as an alternative to premining. As far as I'm aware, we are the first cryptocurrency to introduce stock as an idea, and we believe it is a much cleaner solution for early-backer income.

Luke and I (the two primary devs) have turned down comfy full time positions at Google and Akamai as software engineers so that we can focus entirely on Sia. However, we do not have sufficient savings to support development. This pre-IPO will give us the funds we need to put food on the table and a roof over our heads. (And insurance, transportation, etc. Living expenses.)

Unfortunately, this means that we can't use an escrow. We will run out of money before Sia is finished, which is why we are selling 15% of all Siastock at such an early stage.

Sia is the most efficient storage solution that I've ever read about. It's as cheap as buying consumer grade hardware, it's got low latency, high throughput, and is highly resilient to disasters that could take many hosts offline simultaneously. Sia's feature set is superior to existing cloud storage solutions offered by Amazon, Microsoft, Google, etc. all while being only 20% of the price. If Sia takes off, you can expect hundreds of millions to billions of dollars per year being spent renting storage. 3.9% of all of this will be going to the owners of Siastock, and we are making 15% of all Siastock available for purchase for a total of 250btc.

The IPO will most likely involve using the Nxt Asset Exchange, and will most likely start during the last week of May or the first week of June.

Future Plans:
After Sia is completed and fully working we'll be selling another round of Siastock, probably 25%. This will be in the hopes of raising multiple millions of dollars. That funding will give us enough for developers, security audits, marketing, etc. Sia has the capability to replace all of the corporate and centralized cloud storage solutions. We're going to need a lot of manpower and market power in order to make that happen. We'll also need Sia libraries in every major programming language, a dead simple API, an Amazon compatible API, (perhaps a dropbox compatibe API), etc. We can also replace all streaming services such as Netflix, Spotify, etc, and that will require a lot of manpower and market power as well.

The point here is that our future plans are very big. We're substantially more than a cryptocurrency, we're the next generation of the internet, the so called 'fifth layer.' We want to make this happen, and we need your help to do that.

Thanks!
sorry, what  ever your project is so power and amazing ,without escrow , i'm out.

pos , visa , edge , sim , nxn ,stc ,what, sbc , lax ......    all of them ,  we all remember.....

if dev have confidence in the project , you should same as the dev of gen 2.0 coin just like  EXO , QORA , they are really powerfull and work hard . by the way , they used escrow .


without escrow , i'm out too.


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May 12, 2014, 03:17:13 AM
 #50

sorry, what  ever your project is so power and amazing ,without escrow , i'm out.

without escrow , i'm out too.

I understand. I also hope that you understand; we need the money before we can finish the coin. If we could get to 100btc without escrow, we could take escrow until there's an alpha. But then there's the same sort of issue: an alpha is certainly not a full coin, and would not be released under the pretence of being a full coin.

Sia is not programmed yet (well, it's partially programmed). It will take us several months to get to get to the full coin, and we will run out of money long before then. If you're willing to do something like a 3 month escrow (no Bitcoins for us until an alpha... or something like that), we might be able to make it work out. But we need to eat, we need electricity and internet, and we need a place to sleep.

The other thing that we have over the other scams is that our identities are fully public. I'm David Vorick, the other dev is Luke Champine. We were Ycombinator finalists under the idea for Sia, but were turned away for being several months from completion. You can email me directly, and you can email Luke directly to confirm our identities. (first.last@gmail.com)

If there's any mid-step you will accept as opposed to waiting until Sia is fully developed, we are happy to consider escrow. We are legitimate, and we are willing to take large steps to prove it. We understand the huge aversion to buying into an IPO without escrow, because anybody could be running a scam. If you are interested in the coin and want to get involved, consider what would make you willing to trust us, and let us know. We are not anonymous developers.

The other thing is that Sia will be having a second IPO (a real IPO) once the currency is completed. For this, escrow will certainly be used but the price will also be much higher, at least 10x as expensive if not much more. Investing at this early stage represents greater risk but also much greater reward.

Do you know there are someone steal your thought? Stroagecoin, copied everything from Siacoin

Yes I've been in at least one thread with Storagecoin. Whoever runs the account 'Storagecoin' can hardly speak english, I don't know how he can convincingly pass as the writer of the whitepaper that he stole. Additionally, the source code he uploaded (at first, idk if he's fixed it now) has my name (David Vorick) in it. Furthermore, the whitepaper being presented is several months old, has hand-drawn images (my own drawings as it were), and is severly flawed in a few ways (that we've since fixed). Anybody who does their due diligence on storagecoin at this point will reveal the scam almost immediately.


====================

I just wanted to say again, we're willing to take extra steps to prove ourselves as legitimate. We realize that many of you will never take a risk without escrow, which is why at the moment we are only collecting enough money to get by until the launch of Sia. Sia has been my pet project for 10 months now, and we've just recently kicked it into full gear. You can see our github page and our commit history. If you feel so compelled, you can open an issue in the issue tracker asking us to confirm this thread. I'm not sure what else would put you at ease, but feel free to make suggestions.
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May 12, 2014, 03:56:19 AM
 #51

Hi, other dev (Luke) here.

Just wanted to make myself known, and to mention that we're looking for others to contribute to the project. In particular, we could use people versed in:

  • Academic proofs
  • The Go programming language
  • Web/graphic design

Feel free to email either of us if you want to help out. You can also contribute directly by opening a pull request on our GitHub page.

Thanks!
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May 12, 2014, 03:59:02 AM
 #52

Jesus, another shit coin... Sad
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May 12, 2014, 10:26:04 AM
 #53

I am interested. Supposedly time is of essence here. Whoever comes first with working product has some benefit, be it maidsafe of sia.

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May 12, 2014, 10:39:56 AM
 #54

There is a second problem without the use of an escrow.

If you fail with the programming and you decide to stop it and give up. We will not get our money back, obviously cause you already spent it for living expenses.

It´s really hard to invest in this one, even if we believe that you are honest.

Maybe you can add some juice. 15% is not much.


So you want to sell 15% for 250BTC.  What happened if you get just 100BTC? The 15% will be distributed among the 100BTC invistors right?


With paying 250BC for 15%, the whole thing would be worth almost 700 Grand, even if it´s just an idea right now.
Think about it, if you want guys to invest, I think you have to give away way more than 15% for 250BTC.

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May 12, 2014, 10:41:23 AM
 #55

Hi Taek,

I have compiled a list of projects that are listing on the Nxt Asset Exchange and I see that you plan to use it. Great News  Grin

The porjects so far are here >>>> https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/asset-exchange-ipos-launch-day-listings!/

If you want to add Siacoin, please post the details and I will add it to the OP and promote it with the rest of the projects.

Thanks  Grin
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May 12, 2014, 12:11:49 PM
 #56

There is a second problem without the use of an escrow.

If you fail with the programming and you decide to stop it and give up. We will not get our money back, obviously cause you already spent it for living expenses.

This is true, except that neither Luke nor I will stop working on Sia regardless of what happens. If we run out of money, we'll take full time jobs and work on Sia in our spare time. If prior experience is any indication, Sia would still get at least 20hrs a week from each of us. Things would move slower, but we'd be committed to finishing what we accepted money to finish.

Maybe you can add some juice. 15% is not much.


So you want to sell 15% for 250BTC.  What happened if you get just 100BTC? The 15% will be distributed among the 100BTC invistors right?

We'll have to see what the market thinks. We've already got several large investors interested (>5 btc) and we haven't even started yet. We don't need everybody to be willing to pay this price, only enough to hit 250btc. I feel pretty confident that we can get very close.

If we only get to 100BTC, what will happen is we'll stop the IPO (after 2 weeks). At 100BTC we'll be able to develop for several months and have much more to show for our efforts, and we'll be a much less risky option. As the funds start to run dry, we'll continue the IPO and sell the remaining X% for a higher price. (less risk, higher price). I'm quite confident that we can hit 100BTC.
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May 12, 2014, 01:09:45 PM
 #57

the acceptable way is find a trustworthy  escrow, dev made a detail plan , just like 5 steps , when you finish first step,escrow release 2% ,when you finish step 2, release 4% to you ,finished step 3 ,release 8%,when you show us beta version and test ok ,then 20%, finial version will be release all.
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May 12, 2014, 01:17:34 PM
 #58

IPO ETA?

Bitcoin Ethereum TERA
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May 12, 2014, 01:27:37 PM
 #59

sorry, what  ever your project is so power and amazing ,without escrow , i'm out.

without escrow , i'm out too.

I understand. I also hope that you understand; we need the money before we can finish the coin. If we could get to 100btc without escrow, we could take escrow until there's an alpha. But then there's the same sort of issue: an alpha is certainly not a full coin, and would not be released under the pretence of being a full coin.

Sia is not programmed yet (well, it's partially programmed). It will take us several months to get to get to the full coin, and we will run out of money long before then. If you're willing to do something like a 3 month escrow (no Bitcoins for us until an alpha... or something like that), we might be able to make it work out. But we need to eat, we need electricity and internet, and we need a place to sleep.

The other thing that we have over the other scams is that our identities are fully public. I'm David Vorick, the other dev is Luke Champine. We were Ycombinator finalists under the idea for Sia, but were turned away for being several months from completion. You can email me directly, and you can email Luke directly to confirm our identities. (first.last@gmail.com)

If there's any mid-step you will accept as opposed to waiting until Sia is fully developed, we are happy to consider escrow. We are legitimate, and we are willing to take large steps to prove it. We understand the huge aversion to buying into an IPO without escrow, because anybody could be running a scam. If you are interested in the coin and want to get involved, consider what would make you willing to trust us, and let us know. We are not anonymous developers.

The other thing is that Sia will be having a second IPO (a real IPO) once the currency is completed. For this, escrow will certainly be used but the price will also be much higher, at least 10x as expensive if not much more. Investing at this early stage represents greater risk but also much greater reward.

Do you know there are someone steal your thought? Stroagecoin, copied everything from Siacoin

Yes I've been in at least one thread with Storagecoin. Whoever runs the account 'Storagecoin' can hardly speak english, I don't know how he can convincingly pass as the writer of the whitepaper that he stole. Additionally, the source code he uploaded (at first, idk if he's fixed it now) has my name (David Vorick) in it. Furthermore, the whitepaper being presented is several months old, has hand-drawn images (my own drawings as it were), and is severly flawed in a few ways (that we've since fixed). Anybody who does their due diligence on storagecoin at this point will reveal the scam almost immediately.


====================

I just wanted to say again, we're willing to take extra steps to prove ourselves as legitimate. We realize that many of you will never take a risk without escrow, which is why at the moment we are only collecting enough money to get by until the launch of Sia. Sia has been my pet project for 10 months now, and we've just recently kicked it into full gear. You can see our github page and our commit history. If you feel so compelled, you can open an issue in the issue tracker asking us to confirm this thread. I'm not sure what else would put you at ease, but feel free to make suggestions.

I'm really interested in this idea, I struggled about whether or not to invest storagecoin. Now seem that I was right not to join in stc.
I believe u, and I think I will invest even without escrow, it will be better if there is.
I will keep eye on this. If you are going to start IPO, PM me.  Grin

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May 12, 2014, 01:36:04 PM
 #60

when is the ipo on nxt?
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May 12, 2014, 02:22:50 PM
 #61

This coin looks very innovative, and I think it is a very noteworthy thing!
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May 13, 2014, 05:46:13 AM
 #62

Sorry if I missed this somehow...  but what will be the total amount of Siastock?

...not in reference to the initial 15% pre-IPO but in general...

thnx   Smiley

So, I really want to make 3.9 total Siastock, since the host fee is 3.9%. If you have 1 Siastock that means you get 1% of all host fees on the network. It makes it very easy to convert the amount of Siastock you have to the % of host fees that you get.

But 3.9 is a pretty non-conventional number, and will require many decimals of precision. Ultimately, I haven't decided.
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May 13, 2014, 06:38:42 AM
 #63

Announcement!

Our asset on the Nxt AE is live!



SiaNotes

Ticker symbol
SIAN
What is it? 
Decentralized Cloud Storage Network, , bitcointalk thread
What percentage of the company is being sold? 
15%
How many shares to be sold?
1500 (out of 10,000)
What price will they be sold at?
2400 NXT (subject to change with exchange rates - raising 250 BTC total)
Nxtforum discussion
https://nxtforum.org/alternate-cryptocurrencies/sia-official-nxt-thread/
Other sites
www.siacoin.com
bitcointalk thread
Nxt account used to issue assets
Account ID: 13179792715523067888
Asset ID: 11593659039925686857
Asset Name: sianote

The process has changed slightly. I have made 10,000 sianotes available through the Nxt AE. At the launch of Sia, each sianote will convert to 0.01% stock. 10,000 = 100% stock. Only 15% is for sale, meaning that throughout our whole pre-IPO, only 1500 sianotes will be sold. The price works out to 2400 NXT each. This is slightly different from numbers previously stated, and this is the final way that it will work (can't change, as we are live!). As of right now, 100 are for sale, and over the next 3 weeks I will keep adding more until 1500 total have been sold.

When I get nxt, they will be converted directly to USD to safeguard ourselves from the volatility of cryptocurrency. Bitcoin has been relatively stable for the past month but I want to minimize risk.

If you do not want to deal with nxt, you can send me bitcoins directly and I'll mark you down on a sheet. At any time, you can request the number of sianotes that you bought and I will send them to your nxt account. I actually prefer that all large transactions occur this way, because I get to avoid a 0.2% transaction fee that occurs when converting from nxt to btc. (It's not a big deal though, if you are more comfortable directly using the AE, feel free to do so.)

===========

I thought you had already decided that the 15% pre-IPO will be 5000 shares...  is it safe to assume that you're aiming for a breakdown of the 3.9 total Siastock into ~39000 shares?

I'm not sure what the best volume is for direct Siastock. Before converting any sianotes to siastock however, the number of siastock will be locked in. For example, if I decide to use 1 total siastock, each sianote will convert to 0.0001 siastock. If I decide to use 10000 siastock, each sianote will convert directly to 1 siastock. Regardless of how many siastock there are, exactly 3.9% of all host income (for renting out storage) on Sia will be distributed among the owners of Siastock every block. Having an exact number is just a convention, which is why right now I'm operating purely in percentages.
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May 13, 2014, 06:56:00 AM
 #64

About Sia's Technology

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May 13, 2014, 07:34:19 AM
 #65

it is too hard to catch you
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May 13, 2014, 07:36:00 AM
 #66

seem a scam?
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May 13, 2014, 07:47:39 AM
 #67

Glad to see more interest in the coin.Keep up the good work!
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May 13, 2014, 08:08:14 AM
 #68

sounds good,how can i jion ipo,pm me

Bitrated user: huanghao2008.
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May 13, 2014, 12:37:08 PM
 #69

Someone bought at 9,000 nxt. I think you should put more orders now

QORA | 2ND GEN | NEW SOURCE CODE | QM8Q7itiFjs9b2QaXgDuedT8cfX5qaYeqC
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May 13, 2014, 12:50:48 PM
 #70

Announcement!

Our asset on the Nxt AE is live!

Very smart decision...  Nxt AE is SMOOTH LIKE BUTTER!!!    Cool


Edit:  IF you do not manage to sell all available shares...  is there any chance you will decrease the amount of shares (< 10000)...  thus increasing the percentage equivalent of each purchased share?  Not that I am hoping for the pre-IPO and IPO to not do well...  but leaving such window open might be a good incentive for people to participate...  due to the possibility of receiving some type of bonus percentage per share if we end up with limited participation.

+1
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May 13, 2014, 01:01:55 PM
 #71

Can you guys list a public BTC address in the OP for us to send it to?





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SuperNET.org
..BarterDEX..
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May 13, 2014, 01:20:11 PM
 #72

Someone bought at 9,000 nxt. I think you should put more orders now

Probably due to a mistake.

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May 13, 2014, 01:24:49 PM
 #73

Please post BTC address for direct investment. 
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May 13, 2014, 02:17:27 PM
Last edit: May 13, 2014, 02:36:09 PM by TheMightyX
 #74

Just so everyones on the same page:
You are valuing your project at 1666 BTC or $733,333.00


Three quarters of a million dollars for something that is little more than an idea and a little bit of code at this point.
Please keep in mind people that if you are investing in this, you are agreeing to that valuation.

Also by asking for investors to cover your expenses while you develop you are shifting all the risk from yourself onto the investors. If it flops or if you can't make it work; at least you got paid a nice salary while you were doing it.

Expecting others to foot 100% of the risk is a shady way of doing business I think.

If you really need the money for expenses you could have a seperated escrow system that pays you out a fraction per month for a certain amount of time.

For example you could receive 20% a month, every month, for 5 months.

Assuming you sell out of the IPO, this would equate to $22,000 a month. Don't try to tell us that your expenses would cost your more than 22K a month. You would have to rent quite a few Lamborghini's to make that happen. If you need more time you could split the escrow into 10 parts equaling $11,000 a month. Anyone and their entire family could live quite comfortable with that kind of cash so I can't think of a reason why this wouldn't work (2 team members? easy! $5,500 a month each! 3 team members? easy! $3,666 a month each!).

In this scenario, your expenses are covered, and if you don't produce anything after a month at least 80% of the funds are saved (or 60%, or 40%, etc etc, atleast you are protecting investors in some way).

Please provide a valid reason as to why this system would not work.
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May 13, 2014, 02:54:32 PM
 #75

Im on for the giveaway.

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May 13, 2014, 03:04:02 PM
 #76

Just so everyones on the same page:
You are valuing your project at 1666 BTC or $733,333.00


Three quarters of a million dollars for something that is little more than an idea and a little bit of code at this point.
Please keep in mind people that if you are investing in this, you are agreeing to that valuation.

Also by asking for investors to cover your expenses while you develop you are shifting all the risk from yourself onto the investors. If it flops or if you can't make it work; at least you got paid a nice salary while you were doing it.

Expecting others to foot 100% of the risk is a shady way of doing business I think.

If you really need the money for expenses you could have a seperated escrow system that pays you out a fraction per month for a certain amount of time.

For example you could receive 20% a month, every month, for 5 months.

Assuming you sell out of the IPO, this would equate to $22,000 a month. Don't try to tell us that your expenses would cost your more than 22K a month. You would have to rent quite a few Lamborghini's to make that happen. If you need more time you could split the escrow into 10 parts equaling $11,000 a month. Anyone and their entire family could live quite comfortable with that kind of cash so I can't think of a reason why this wouldn't work (2 team members? easy! $5,500 a month each! 3 team members? easy! $3,666 a month each!).

In this scenario, your expenses are covered, and if you don't produce anything after a month at least 80% of the funds are saved (or 60%, or 40%, etc etc, atleast you are protecting investors in some way).

Please provide a valid reason as to why this system would not work.


Indeed the 2400nxt for 1 sianote ratio seems very imbalanced. Especially when you realize this is a pre-IPO were 95% of the project if not more is still just an idea.
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May 13, 2014, 03:41:08 PM
Last edit: May 14, 2014, 08:49:06 AM by schnötzel
 #77

Just so everyones on the same page:
You are valuing your project at 1666 BTC or $733,333.00


Three quarters of a million dollars for something that is little more than an idea and a little bit of code at this point.
Please keep in mind people that if you are investing in this, you are agreeing to that valuation.

Also by asking for investors to cover your expenses while you develop you are shifting all the risk from yourself onto the investors. If it flops or if you can't make it work; at least you got paid a nice salary while you were doing it.

Expecting others to foot 100% of the risk is a shady way of doing business I think.

If you really need the money for expenses you could have a seperated escrow system that pays you out a fraction per month for a certain amount of time.

For example you could receive 20% a month, every month, for 5 months.

Assuming you sell out of the IPO, this would equate to $22,000 a month. Don't try to tell us that your expenses would cost your more than 22K a month. You would have to rent quite a few Lamborghini's to make that happen. If you need more time you could split the escrow into 10 parts equaling $11,000 a month. Anyone and their entire family could live quite comfortable with that kind of cash so I can't think of a reason why this wouldn't work (2 team members? easy! $5,500 a month each! 3 team members? easy! $3,666 a month each!).

In this scenario, your expenses are covered, and if you don't produce anything after a month at least 80% of the funds are saved (or 60%, or 40%, etc etc, atleast you are protecting investors in some way).

Please provide a valid reason as to why this system would not work.


Indeed the 2400nxt for 1 sianote ratio seems very imbalanced. Especially when you realize this is a pre-IPO were 95% of the project if not more is still just an idea.

+1

 You will keep 85% of the Notes?
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May 13, 2014, 04:26:46 PM
 #78

You are valuing your project at 1666 BTC or $733,333.00

You're not making sense...  doing a couple simple calculations doesn't prove ANYTHING...  if want people to give any validity whatsoever to your post...  you need to restrict your comments to the 250 BTC pre-IPO goal at this stage...    Lips sealed

Yes he is, the dev is selling SiaNotes at a current market cap of $733k.  Why is that wrong to state here?  I know the devs and I have no doubt they are honest and capable, but I also think users here have a right to ask questions.

Edit; BTW, I think listing on Nxt AE is awesome, as it will allow investors to trade SiaNotes as the project progresses.  I don't see another IPO here that allows investors to trade part of their stake other than private transactions.
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May 13, 2014, 04:49:53 PM
 #79

Im on for the giveaway.

I have read all the pages in this thread and cannot find any current offer of a giveaway. Could someone point out to me where it is? I would like to be one of the giveaway recipients, if possible.
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May 13, 2014, 04:55:13 PM
 #80

Im on for the giveaway.

I have read all the pages in this thread and cannot find any current offer of a giveaway. Could someone point out to me where it is? I would like to be one of the giveaway recipients, if possible.

post #7

ps: strg + f helps Wink
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May 13, 2014, 06:00:48 PM
Last edit: May 13, 2014, 08:59:35 PM by Taek
 #81

Update!

There's been a surprising amount of interest, and a technical bump in the road.

In trying to convert nxt to btc, it seems that Bter has eaten my coins. I'm not sure what's going on there, but they only ate a small portion. Even if I end up losing those coins entirely, it's not a big deal. But it does mean that I'm going to stop accepting nxt until I can convert them to btc. I don't want to lose a ton of money because the price randomly plummets.

A few people have contacted me with requests to buy with btc. Because the time flood timer is 6 minutes, I'm now requesting that you email me. david.vorick@gmail.com
Additionally, there has been an explosion of interest, the price is going up. (apologies to everyone who didn't get in early, I had no idea there would be so much demand.) 1 BTC = 5 sianotes. 2850 Nxt = 1 sianote.

The process for buying with bitcoins:
1. Tell me which account is sending bitcoins, how many bitcoins it is sending, and how much stock you are getting in return. 1BTC = 5 sianotes.
2. AFTER you have told me this, send me the coins. I really don't want to get messages from 2 different people who claim they each sent the coins. Tell me first, then send the coins
3. If you are sending more than 5btc, confirm with me first. This is just because demand has been so high, and I'm worried that we might over-sell.
4. Send bitcoins to this account: 146dACCKyDsUre5DXQbKwrb6Xf3ycoAP3p
5. Sianotes are not divisible. If you send me an uneven number of bitcoins, I will round down. I cannot send you half of a sianote.
6. If you have an Nxt account, also tell me which account to send the sianotes to.

If you do not have an Nxt account, create a public key and sign that I am to hold onto your sianotes for you. When it is time for you to claim your sianotes, you'll need to sign a statement telling me where to send the sianotes. I don't want to get an email from a scammer who is claiming to be you, and then send your sianotes to the wrong place. (again, you only need a public key if I'm holding your sianotes until a later date)

I'll make another post once I have Nxt withdrawals working, and then I'll continue selling Sianotes on the exchange.

Thanks everybody for your interest and investments. It means a lot to us.
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May 13, 2014, 06:34:36 PM
Last edit: May 13, 2014, 06:56:17 PM by nemo1618
 #82

Wow, we've been really overwhelmed by the response so far! Thanks to everyone who has supported us.

To address some questions/concerns:

Just so everyones on the same page:
You are valuing your project at 1666 BTC or $733,333.00


Three quarters of a million dollars for something that is little more than an idea and a little bit of code at this point.
Please keep in mind people that if you are investing in this, you are agreeing to that valuation.

Also by asking for investors to cover your expenses while you develop you are shifting all the risk from yourself onto the investors. If it flops or if you can't make it work; at least you got paid a nice salary while you were doing it.

$750k is not an unreasonable valuation. As Y Combinator finalists, we already had an implicit valuation of $1.7M ($120k @ 7%). Sia is much more than just another cryptocurrency, and we believe that our current valuation is justified.

You are correct that we are shifting risk onto investors; that's what investors do, trade risk today for value tomorrow! Bear in mind that traditional seed funding, as well as Kickstarter campaigns, operate on this assumption. There is certainly some risk involved when you back a Kickstarter, but people do it anyway because they want to support cool projects and they trust the creator to deliver. That is why we've been very open about our identities and our code base; it makes us more accountable and increases the social pressure to succeed.

Im on for the giveaway.

I have read all the pages in this thread and cannot find any current offer of a giveaway. Could someone point out to me where it is? I would like to be one of the giveaway recipients, if possible.

There will likely be a giveaway after launch, but keep in mind that only Siacoin will be given away, not Siastock. The latter is a lot more valuable Wink
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May 13, 2014, 07:43:34 PM
 #83

If we contacted you about buying with btc before your announcement of the rate change, can you sell it to us at the old rate? Seems unfair that we have done that then you change the price?





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May 13, 2014, 08:34:17 PM
 #84

I'm going to use this post to cover a bunch of things. I strongly dislike the 6 minute flood timer, it's causing a lot of grief. Nonetheless...

Just so everyones on the same page:
You are valuing your project at 1666 BTC or $733,333.00


Yes. As it stands, our project is a whitepaper and ~8,000 lines of code that sets up a single quorum and doesn't store files. This alone is not worth $700k. However, with this round of funding, you have our existing project and the idea, plus 2 developers who can afford to live for a full year working full time on Sia. Up until this point, we've had to balance Sia against our other responsibilities. This round of funding gives us a lot of time. The idea, whitepaper, plus 6-12 months of implementation is what is worth $700k. We're also lucky because the 2 developers are cofounders. If we were trying to raise what Google would pay us for 1 year, we'd need a lot more money. As it happens, we're content enough to just be able to afford California living expenses.

The other thing is that there is a clear demand for Siastock/Sianotes. One of my fears is that someone is willing to pay a lot more than the cost, but misses out on the opportunity because we have lowballed our offer and sold out before they realized we were doing the IPO. We've been at it for less than 1 day and still haven't contacted everyone who expressed interest.

Expecting others to foot 100% of the risk is a shady way of doing business I think.

There is a significant amount of opportunity cost associated with doing this. Our investors are not handling all of the risk. We are giving up very comfy salaries to do this. Our opportunity cost is actually more than the money we are raising.

If you really need the money for expenses you could have a seperated escrow system that pays you out a fraction per month for a certain amount of time.

For example you could receive 20% a month, every month, for 5 months.

Assuming you sell out of the IPO, this would equate to $22,000 a month. Don't try to tell us that your expenses would cost your more than 22K a month. You would have to rent quite a few Lamborghini's to make that happen. If you need more time you could split the escrow into 10 parts equaling $11,000 a month. Anyone and their entire family could live quite comfortable with that kind of cash so I can't think of a reason why this wouldn't work (2 team members? easy! $5,500 a month each! 3 team members? easy! $3,666 a month each!).

In this scenario, your expenses are covered, and if you don't produce anything after a month at least 80% of the funds are saved (or 60%, or 40%, etc etc, atleast you are protecting investors in some way).

Please provide a valid reason as to why this system would not work.


We're looking at raising the money to last a full year. Doing a staggered escrow would work just fine, if anybody wanted to arrange that. The problem is that we'd need strict rules for figuring out whether or not the money should be released an when. As we stand, we've got enough people who seem willing to fund us even without escrow. Ultimately, I'm expecting that Luke and I combined will be spending around $5k per month, especially early on. As Sia progresses, we'll start to have legitimate business expenses. The ~$100k that we are trying to raise gives us enough to live comfortably for a full year (including insurance), plus a comfortable amount of emergency money in case anything goes awry. (cars break down, people get sick, etc. Just need to be prepared). And even after that we'll have extra money for servers, initial hard drives, and be able to set up a reasonably reliable base network without any additional miners.

Just make sure to enter the correct Bter Deposit Address when sending NXT and you have nothing to worry about...  pending deposits disappear after they get the required confirmations but that is just because Bter transfers the NXT to another account before they credit your account.

Expanding on this a little bit more, I sent a test volume of 50 nxt to my bter deposit address. This was confirmed in about 30 minutes. Then I sent 25,000 nxt to the same address and bter never updated our balance. If you look at the blockchain though you see that the coins were forwarded to bter's primary account. I'm not sure if large transactions have a 1 day hold or something, but it's been 68 confirmations and I'd expect to see something. If someone can help us out, I'm trying to trade nxt to bitcoins for 0.00007 btc per nxt.

It's disconcerting but I'm not too worried because not a large percentage of the funds are at stake. I will of course honor all sianotes that have thus far been sold regardless of how things turn out with bter.


==============

If we contacted you about buying with btc before your announcement of the rate change, can you sell it to us at the old rate? Seems unfair that we have done that then you change the price?

Yes, I've been able to contact some people but haven't been able to get to everybody yet (that 6 minute flood timer...). Anyone who sent me a message requesting a sale before the price raise can buy up to 10BTC worth of sianotes at the old price. You should know who you are.

Other people have expressed concern with the price raise, saying it seems a bit dishonest. It was a tough decision to make, because I was afraid that this might seem the case. I don't want to follow MaidSAFE and sell out in 5 hours, where many interested parties end up missing out. The price raise is to slow down the offers a bit and give everyone who's contacted me or expressed interest over the past few weeks a chance to invest. I really have no idea the best or most honest way to do this, however I'm keeping a list of everyone who buys at the inflated price. If at a later point we decide the honest thing to do is have everyone pay the same price, all people who invested will be given more sianotes according to their investment.

At the low price, we are selling out very fast, and this concerns me. As far as I know, there's no smooth way to handle a pre-IPO with cryptocurrency. We're doing our best. Ultimately, we care about getting our 250 btc, and we care that everyone feels like they had a proper chance to get involved and invested. We don't need more than 250btc at this point, and we're happy giving up 15% siastock to get the money. Thanks for understanding, and I'm open to suggestions.
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May 13, 2014, 08:37:38 PM
 #85

It's interesting but can you offer escrow
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May 13, 2014, 09:10:50 PM
 #86

So when the IPO is supposed to kick off and will u use any escrow for the same ?

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May 13, 2014, 09:24:17 PM
 #87

Our transactions have come through on bter, there might just be a larger delay for larger transactions. Or maybe the need manual approval, as it seems like both large transactions got confirmed at the same time.

Whatever it is, bter is working for us now. This means that we can continue selling on the AE.
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May 13, 2014, 09:47:54 PM
 #88

Wow. That 100 went fast!
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May 13, 2014, 09:48:20 PM
 #89

Our transactions have come through on bter, there might just be a larger delay for larger transactions. Or maybe the need manual approval, as it seems like both large transactions got confirmed at the same time.

Whatever it is, bter is working for us now. This means that we can continue selling on the AE.

I bought some. It going really fast, this 200 should be sold within an hour.

You should at least try to find a private buyer for the nxt, this volume is too much to dump on bter.

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May 13, 2014, 10:09:40 PM
 #90

You should at least try to find a private buyer for the nxt, this volume is too much to dump on bter.

 Tongue

We're looking for a private buyer of Nxt. We'd be looking to sell somewhere between 500,000 and 2,500,000 for 0.00007 btc each.

It looks like we could sell these over the course of a week on bter, but ultimately I have no idea how long it'll take to sell so many. We can absolutely do escrow for the nxt to bitcoin trade, but I don't know which escrow's are trustworthy.
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May 13, 2014, 10:13:22 PM
 #91

You may want to ask Anon136 to provide escrow, he is here and on nxtforum

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041

BTC 1Mye3mqB9WQdCj3uFwx6zcRArnzbUiq6Ro  ★ [NXT] NXT-RA49-RXFR-V6WE-97HT9
★ [ORA] LOGO  ★ [NEM] LOGO  ★ [NXT] MONOLITH  ★ [EXO] LOGO  ★ [FIMK] LOGO  ★ [NODE] LOGO
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May 13, 2014, 10:25:42 PM
 #92

You should at least try to find a private buyer for the nxt, this volume is too much to dump on bter.

 Tongue

We're looking for a private buyer of Nxt. We'd be looking to sell somewhere between 500,000 and 2,500,000 for 0.00007 btc each.

It looks like we could sell these over the course of a week on bter, but ultimately I have no idea how long it'll take to sell so many. We can absolutely do escrow for the nxt to bitcoin trade, but I don't know which escrow's are trustworthy.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345336.0;topicseen

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May 14, 2014, 05:32:24 AM
 #93

Interesting Idea I don't know if it's been brought up but monetizing (small siacoin charge) downloads would seriously encourage uploads of quality content.
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May 14, 2014, 06:56:34 AM
 #94

Interesting Idea I don't know if it's been brought up but monetizing (small siacoin charge) downloads would seriously encourage uploads of quality content.

Yes actually we're going to build that into the scripting system. You can make a download free or you can charge a small amount for it (or even a large amount). It's not well defined yet, but ideally Sia could be used by Netflix, Hulu, or Pay-per-view and have the charges built in. Piracy might be an issue after the first download, but in most cases the legitimate service (especially if it's easy and comfortable to use) will get sufficient downloads.
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May 14, 2014, 07:37:40 AM
 #95

So, who is the owner of 9839339869956953060 nxt account?
This account have eat 325 sianotes.

QORA | 2ND GEN | NEW SOURCE CODE | QM8Q7itiFjs9b2QaXgDuedT8cfX5qaYeqC
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May 14, 2014, 03:33:57 PM
 #96

Are you filling any more orders on the NXT AE? I've requested orders both via AE for your asking price and requested a bitcoin order to your email but will not send if you are still placing orders via AE. Thanks  

NXT-XFAH-7N9C-6AS6-B3GLZ                BTC: 1MMzqYNNqQMMhY524Z9ThuQrRQW2whCmGk
NHZ: 8709719431783299770                 QORA | 2ND GEN | NEW SOURCE CODE | Qi24ssRqmEo3Wepv9pgdmqNuTDKQByiEfd
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May 14, 2014, 03:39:45 PM
 #97

Guys, if you think this will be used for anything other than child pron, start your brain up.
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May 14, 2014, 04:07:27 PM
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Solve movies rental issue could be huge. It would be great to integrate it with subtitle support by community into opensource XBMC.
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May 14, 2014, 04:28:18 PM
 #99

I suggest that you encourage BTC investments and then issue SiaNotes to investors.  The Nxt AE is still young and you may have a hard time offloading several million Nxt at once.  Would be nice to see the OP updated with total amount invested, so others can see how much of the 15% IPO is available.  Excited to see the progress on development in the upcoming months. 
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May 14, 2014, 05:17:18 PM
 #100

Are you filling any more orders on the NXT AE? I've requested orders both via AE for your asking price and requested a bitcoin order to your email but will not send if you are still placing orders via AE. Thanks  

We've been releasing about 100 at a time, but a few heavier investors seem to be snapping them up as fast as I release them. (IE the 325 account). I'm changing the prices again, but only on the AE. I'm also up to 1.7m nxt, which will probably take [too long] a few weeks to sell on bter.com. I have been contacted once by someone offering to do a bulk buy of nxt though, so that might solve the problem.

Spending Bitcoins, 1 BTC = 5 sianotes.
On the AE, 1 sianote = 3100 nxt.

Again, this is because I've pretty much got all the nxt that I'm comfortable with, and a few investors seem to be monopolizing the AE.

I suggest that you encourage BTC investments and then issue SiaNotes to investors.  The Nxt AE is still young and you may have a hard time offloading several million Nxt at once.  Would be nice to see the OP updated with total amount invested, so others can see how much of the 15% IPO is available.  Excited to see the progress on development in the upcoming months. 

So far, I have sold 1000 sianotes, which means 500 remain. I'll be updating the OP soon. The response has been significant and I'm very excited to have sold so many sianotes. At this point I have cashed out enough BTC for Luke and I to last the entire summer, and that doesn't even include the 1.7 million nxt. Assuming the nxt cashes out smoothly, we'll have enough to complete development!

You may want to ask Anon136 to provide escrow, he is here and on nxtforum

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041

This guy looks good for nxt=>btc escrow, but I'd feel more comfortable if other people in this thread can confirm that he's trustworthy.
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May 14, 2014, 05:22:16 PM
 #101

Anon136 is probably the most trustworthy guy on the forum.
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May 14, 2014, 05:22:34 PM
 #102

So far, I have sold 1000 sianotes, which means 500 remain. I'll be updating the OP soon. The response has been significant and I'm very excited to have sold so many sianotes. At this point I have cashed out enough BTC for Luke and I to last the entire summer, and that doesn't even include the 1.7 million nxt. Assuming the nxt cashes out smoothly, we'll have enough to complete development!

This guy looks good for nxt=>btc escrow, but I'd feel more comfortable if other people in this thread can confirm that he's trustworthy.

Awesome news on IPO, to be honest didn't think it would go that fast, really glad to hear it was successful and you can begin development.

Anon is like your grandfather, best friend, and dog wrapped into one, he is completely trustworthy.



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May 14, 2014, 05:28:22 PM
 #103

Anon136 is probably the most trustworthy guy on the forum.

+1
Anon136 is well known for being the escrow for many IPOs, all without a hitch (on his end I mean, some of the IPOs have gone belly up and he returned the cash). He has built a good reputation he is leveraging to launch his Silver Bullion Gateway on the AE.
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May 14, 2014, 05:50:11 PM
Last edit: May 14, 2014, 06:03:07 PM by Anotheranonlol
 #104

Why did you decide go via the NXT AE?, that method enriches/favors NXT holders and means putting in additional steps to buy the shares for investors who aren't holding NXT. and additional steps for the issuer to cashout to BTC. It's a tedious process to sell often via BTER and means taking haircuts either side if the liquidity is not there . Basically a lose/lose unless you as issuer are planning on accumulating NXT or a buyer already rich in NXT

I want to invest in SIA but don't want to hold NXT because the distribution method is one of the most disproportionately skewed to few individuals in recent memory (early NXT IPO backers, some presumably who used socks to register multiple stakes have already profitted enough), I would rather not support that in any way. You could of made a BTC denominated offering directly using CounterParty (without requirement for any XCP token) and open ownership of siastock to whole crypto community, without having to sell the shares in background via PM's and undertake complicated manual book-keeping to ensure you don't oversell shares and so forth.. Addtionally because that method is on-top of bitcoin blockchain it will be transparent and auditable for anyone to look at so there will be no cries of fraud like with maidsafe IPO.. An example of an IPO issuance on counterparty is below http://blockscan.com/assetInfo.aspx?q=ROCKMINER

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May 14, 2014, 06:50:35 PM
 #105

Why did you decide go via the NXT AE?, that method enriches/favors NXT holders and means putting in additional steps to buy the shares for investors who aren't holding NXT. and additional steps for the issuer to cashout to BTC. It's a tedious process to sell often via BTER and means taking haircuts either side if the liquidity is not there . Basically a lose/lose unless you as issuer are planning on accumulating NXT or a buyer already rich in NXT

You can buy it with BTC -see the OP's update here post#89- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=591283.80

Quote
If you do not have an Nxt account, create a public key and sign that I am to hold onto your sianotes for you. When it is time for you to claim your sianotes, you'll need to sign a statement telling me where to send the sianotes. I don't want to get an email from a scammer who is claiming to be you, and then send your sianotes to the wrong place. (again, you only need a public key if I'm holding your sianotes until a later date)
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May 14, 2014, 07:24:57 PM
 #106

Why did you decide go via the NXT AE?, that method enriches/favors NXT holders and means putting in additional steps to buy the shares for investors who aren't holding NXT. and additional steps for the issuer to cashout to BTC. It's a tedious process to sell often via BTER and means taking haircuts either side if the liquidity is not there . Basically a lose/lose unless you as issuer are planning on accumulating NXT or a buyer already rich in NXT

I want to invest in SIA but don't want to hold NXT because the distribution method is one of the most disproportionately skewed to few individuals in recent memory (early NXT IPO backers, some presumably who used socks to register multiple stakes have already profitted enough), I would rather not support that in any way. You could of made a BTC denominated offering directly using CounterParty (without requirement for any XCP token) and open ownership of siastock to whole crypto community, without having to sell the shares in background via PM's and undertake complicated manual book-keeping to ensure you don't oversell shares and so forth.. Addtionally because that method is on-top of bitcoin blockchain it will be transparent and auditable for anyone to look at so there will be no cries of fraud like with maidsafe IPO.. An example of an IPO issuance on counterparty is below http://blockscan.com/assetInfo.aspx?q=ROCKMINER

You'll find that Nxt today has a better distribution than BTC so it is odd that you promote BTC over Nxt (I wasn't an early investor).
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May 14, 2014, 08:02:19 PM
 #107

Why did you decide go via the NXT AE?, that method enriches/favors NXT holders and means putting in additional steps to buy the shares for investors who aren't holding NXT. and additional steps for the issuer to cashout to BTC. It's a tedious process to sell often via BTER and means taking haircuts either side if the liquidity is not there . Basically a lose/lose unless you as issuer are planning on accumulating NXT or a buyer already rich in NXT

I want to invest in SIA but don't want to hold NXT because the distribution method is one of the most disproportionately skewed to few individuals in recent memory (early NXT IPO backers, some presumably who used socks to register multiple stakes have already profitted enough), I would rather not support that in any way. You could of made a BTC denominated offering directly using CounterParty (without requirement for any XCP token) and open ownership of siastock to whole crypto community, without having to sell the shares in background via PM's and undertake complicated manual book-keeping to ensure you don't oversell shares and so forth.. Addtionally because that method is on-top of bitcoin blockchain it will be transparent and auditable for anyone to look at so there will be no cries of fraud like with maidsafe IPO.. An example of an IPO issuance on counterparty is below http://blockscan.com/assetInfo.aspx?q=ROCKMINER

You'll find that Nxt today has a better distribution than BTC so it is odd that you promote BTC over Nxt (I wasn't an early investor).


NXT were brought for total of 21 btc between ~73 stakeholders
current valuation~ 71,450 BTC (very short time later)

340238% profit for lucky few. And how many used alt-accounts to register multiple stakes?

http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=34

not better distribution by any stretch of the imagination as far as I can see.

As far as argument against bitcoin distribution goes. (Excluding satoshis mined stash, which for all we know will be distributed evenly in an act of charity) A huge amount of early coins from 2009- 2011 will never be touched again because the private keys are completely destroyed. Bitcoin was a new paradigm. 1-cpu one vote and anyone could join in

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May 14, 2014, 08:10:40 PM
 #108

SIAcoin is doing well, with so many great things to come.
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May 14, 2014, 08:28:43 PM
 #109

Why did you decide go via the NXT AE?, that method enriches/favors NXT holders and means putting in additional steps to buy the shares for investors who aren't holding NXT. and additional steps for the issuer to cashout to BTC. It's a tedious process to sell often via BTER and means taking haircuts either side if the liquidity is not there . Basically a lose/lose unless you as issuer are planning on accumulating NXT or a buyer already rich in NXT

I want to invest in SIA but don't want to hold NXT because the distribution method is one of the most disproportionately skewed to few individuals in recent memory (early NXT IPO backers, some presumably who used socks to register multiple stakes have already profitted enough), I would rather not support that in any way. You could of made a BTC denominated offering directly using CounterParty (without requirement for any XCP token) and open ownership of siastock to whole crypto community, without having to sell the shares in background via PM's and undertake complicated manual book-keeping to ensure you don't oversell shares and so forth.. Addtionally because that method is on-top of bitcoin blockchain it will be transparent and auditable for anyone to look at so there will be no cries of fraud like with maidsafe IPO.. An example of an IPO issuance on counterparty is below http://blockscan.com/assetInfo.aspx?q=ROCKMINER

You'll find that Nxt today has a better distribution than BTC so it is odd that you promote BTC over Nxt (I wasn't an early investor).


NXT were brought for total of 21 btc between ~73 stakeholders
current valuation~ 71,450 BTC (very short time later)

340238% profit for lucky few. And how many used alt-accounts to register multiple stakes?

http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=34

not better distribution by any stretch of the imagination as far as I can see.

As far as argument against bitcoin distribution goes. (Excluding satoshis mined stash, which for all we know will be distributed evenly in an act of charity) A huge amount of early coins from 2009- 2011 will never be touched again because the private keys are completely destroyed. Bitcoin was a new paradigm. 1-cpu one vote and anyone could join in

My comments were about current distribution, from your comments you still believe Nxt is held by 73 stakeholders?
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May 14, 2014, 08:33:35 PM
 #110

NXT were brought for total of 21 btc between ~73 stakeholders
...

You just copied one of your previous posts from an other topic. Any chance that you read a reply by toknormal on the same page? Because it was a very good reply worthy of consideration.

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May 14, 2014, 08:39:07 PM
 #111

NXT were brought for total of 21 btc between ~73 stakeholders
...

You just copied one of your previous posts from an other topic. Any chance that you read a reply by toknormal on the same page? Because it was a very good reply worthy of consideration.

It was also 21 BTC between over a hundred people but some never came forward for their stake. Maybe no one else came forward in the 2 month period they had a chance as they thought it might be vapourware. We'll never know but I am more interested in the distribution today.

(sorry to hijack your thread  Grin)
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May 14, 2014, 09:15:20 PM
 #112

NXT were brought for total of 21 btc between ~73 stakeholders
...

You just copied one of your previous posts from an other topic. Any chance that you read a reply by toknormal on the same page? Because it was a very good reply worthy of consideration.

it's a bit offtopic but will address it

his reply was:

Quote
the big flaw in this whole argument about "distribution" is that it's based more on a toy-throwing-out-of-pram premise than any dispassionate appraisal of the "distribution model".

For example. The argument goes that NxT stakeholders stand to make an X0000000 % gain from their investment and that that's somehow "excessive". Whereas if someone buying a currency that had, say 5000 buy-ins and also made an X0000000 % gain - that would be alright.

The fact is that there isn't anywhere near enough market liquidity in any of these currencies for such gains ever to be realised at the amounts of holdings the original stakeholders had. Thats why it doesn't matter if it's 76 or 7600 original holders - it's like melting 2 big blocks of ice or 20 little ones in a jug of water. It dilutes just the same.

If the envisaged potential market for these cryptos is, say 50 million people, then an initial "distribution" of 5000 doesn't look too great either. That's 0.01% of the market getting the initial stake. Thats the real hypocrisy behind these empty criticisms.

Yes, the premise is somewhat 'toy throwing out of pram' because who wouldn't kick themselves at a chance to realise a gain of X0000000 %..?
But more to the point it's a valid concern despite any predujice or hissy fits about missing the boat. How can you  support a coin which has enriched such a small group of people in such a disproportionate way when we can create NXT clones giving all the benefits of nxt without the flawed distribution.

Pyramid of 21 initial holders (and god knows how many out of those 21 were single guys owning sock puppets to register multiple stakes) is not a stable foundation for a future currency in any shape or form..it's just absolutely incomprehensible to the point where it seems lunacy it's already survived this long. NXT is a great concept, but the ownership of the total supply was given to such a tiny group of people and from that point forward it's just a trickle down, many I'm sure being self-interested and greedy have manipulated to the best of their abilities distributing their own holdings between multiple accounts and only giving nxt away when it suits them and would boost the value of their pile. the argument is that they'll never realise their gains but they can slowly dump onto markets tiny portions of their holdings and now with things like siastock they can diversify some of their 'unrealisable' nxt ownership into  siastock. They're hardly bagholders and could have made considerable amounts of money already. Good for them but I wouldn't support it

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May 14, 2014, 09:30:42 PM
 #113



NXT were brought for total of 21 btc between ~73 stakeholders
current valuation~ 71,450 BTC (very short time later)

340238% profit for lucky few. And how many used alt-accounts to register multiple stakes?

http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=34

not better distribution by any stretch of the imagination as far as I can see.

As far as argument against bitcoin distribution goes. (Excluding satoshis mined stash, which for all we know will be distributed evenly in an act of charity) A huge amount of early coins from 2009- 2011 will never be touched again because the private keys are completely destroyed. Bitcoin was a new paradigm. 1-cpu one vote and anyone could join in

So why didn't you invest?  Was it because you knew it would have poor distribution?  The creator didn't get rich off of Nxt, and it was an open IPO for two months (far longer than any IPO's held now), so stop whining about distribution, it's not the creator's fault that only 73 people decided to invest.  It's such a tired argument.  What was he supposed to do, he wanted to launch the coin.  I bought Nxt on the open market, when it was 1Mil for 1BTC, because I saw potential.  Nxt has a great community of devs that get things done, and aren't chronic whiners.  I could sit here and stomp my feet about satoshi holding 1.5Mil BTC or that MT Gox blatantly ripped off everyone, but I don't because it's pointless.  Anyway, stop posting here and go mine some BTC.  This should be dedicated to Sia, not Nxt.
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May 14, 2014, 09:38:38 PM
 #114



NXT were brought for total of 21 btc between ~73 stakeholders
current valuation~ 71,450 BTC (very short time later)

340238% profit for lucky few. And how many used alt-accounts to register multiple stakes?

http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=34

not better distribution by any stretch of the imagination as far as I can see.

As far as argument against bitcoin distribution goes. (Excluding satoshis mined stash, which for all we know will be distributed evenly in an act of charity) A huge amount of early coins from 2009- 2011 will never be touched again because the private keys are completely destroyed. Bitcoin was a new paradigm. 1-cpu one vote and anyone could join in

So why didn't you invest?  Was it because you knew it would have poor distribution?  The creator didn't get rich off of Nxt, and it was an open IPO for two months (far longer than any IPO's held now), so stop whining about distribution, it's not the creator's fault that only 73 people decided to invest.  It's such a tired argument.  What was he supposed to do, he wanted to launch the coin.  I bought Nxt on the open market, when it was 1Mil for 1BTC, because I saw potential.  Nxt has a great community of devs that get things done, and aren't chronic whiners.  I could sit here and stomp my feet about satoshi holding 1.5Mil BTC or that MT Gox blatantly ripped off everyone, but I don't because it's pointless.  Anyway, stop posting here and go mine some BTC.  This should be dedicated to Sia, not Nxt.

I didn't invest because frankly I didn't see the thread prior to IPO closure. People keep saying it's a tired argument. It can never be a tired argument because it's like the burj khalifa of arguments. it overshadows absolutely anything else. The creator could of easily register stakes without you knowing about it. You can not build a supposed '2.0 crypto-currency' upon a POS distribution between only 21 people. It can't work it's nonsensical to even propose a currency with such an unfair distribution has a serious chance of success...it's 100x worse than what we have with fiat with fat cat oligarchs controlling huge amounts of the worlds wealth. while poor scrape for few dollars daily.. with nxt it's out of the frying pan into a blazing inferno., and this is the reason community will jump onto coins such as NEM over NXT.

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May 14, 2014, 10:22:33 PM
 #115



NXT were brought for total of 21 btc between ~73 stakeholders
current valuation~ 71,450 BTC (very short time later)

340238% profit for lucky few. And how many used alt-accounts to register multiple stakes?

http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=34

not better distribution by any stretch of the imagination as far as I can see.

As far as argument against bitcoin distribution goes. (Excluding satoshis mined stash, which for all we know will be distributed evenly in an act of charity) A huge amount of early coins from 2009- 2011 will never be touched again because the private keys are completely destroyed. Bitcoin was a new paradigm. 1-cpu one vote and anyone could join in

So why didn't you invest?  Was it because you knew it would have poor distribution?  The creator didn't get rich off of Nxt, and it was an open IPO for two months (far longer than any IPO's held now), so stop whining about distribution, it's not the creator's fault that only 73 people decided to invest.  It's such a tired argument.  What was he supposed to do, he wanted to launch the coin.  I bought Nxt on the open market, when it was 1Mil for 1BTC, because I saw potential.  Nxt has a great community of devs that get things done, and aren't chronic whiners.  I could sit here and stomp my feet about satoshi holding 1.5Mil BTC or that MT Gox blatantly ripped off everyone, but I don't because it's pointless.  Anyway, stop posting here and go mine some BTC.  This should be dedicated to Sia, not Nxt.

I didn't invest because frankly I didn't see the thread prior to IPO closure. People keep saying it's a tired argument. It can never be a tired argument because it's like the burj khalifa of arguments. it overshadows absolutely anything else. The creator could of easily register stakes without you knowing about it. You can not build a supposed '2.0 crypto-currency' upon a POS distribution between only 21 people. It can't work it's nonsensical to even propose a currency with such an unfair distribution has a serious chance of success...it's 100x worse than what we have with fiat with fat cat oligarchs controlling huge amounts of the worlds wealth. while poor scrape for few dollars daily.. with nxt it's out of the frying pan into a blazing inferno., and this is the reason community will jump onto coins such as NEM over NXT.


He could have done a # of things, so what. Speculation is just that.  I think you have your #'s mixed up.  73 stakeholders, 21 BTC.  Not 21 people.  I understand your concern, I really do, but I bought after Nxt was launched at a valuation that was more than fair, and it even went back down after the initial spike, and stakeholders were dumping millions of Nxt for at least a month.  All these IPO's disguise their profit as "distribution".   Anyway, no one is changing your mind, so why argue about it, your time would be better spent being productive.  And you can buy Sia without being forced to hold Nxt. 
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May 14, 2014, 11:17:38 PM
 #116

guys, lets not hijack this thread of the Sia project Smiley
lets move the discussion to a move relevant topic/tread .

cheers

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May 14, 2014, 11:53:49 PM
 #117

guys, lets not hijack this thread of the Sia project Smiley
lets move the discussion to a move relevant topic/tread .

cheers

Made a new topic. Put a response there. TL;DR: I am happy with using Nxt, and I don't think it's current skewed distribution is anything to worry about.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=609322
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May 15, 2014, 12:11:20 AM
 #118

Why did you decide go via the NXT AE?, that method enriches/favors NXT holders and means putting in additional steps to buy the shares for investors who aren't holding NXT. and additional steps for the issuer to cashout to BTC. It's a tedious process to sell often via BTER and means taking haircuts either side if the liquidity is not there . Basically a lose/lose unless you as issuer are planning on accumulating NXT or a buyer already rich in NXT

I want to invest in SIA but don't want to hold NXT because the distribution method is one of the most disproportionately skewed to few individuals in recent memory (early NXT IPO backers, some presumably who used socks to register multiple stakes have already profitted enough), I would rather not support that in any way. You could of made a BTC denominated offering directly using CounterParty (without requirement for any XCP token) and open ownership of siastock to whole crypto community, without having to sell the shares in background via PM's and undertake complicated manual book-keeping to ensure you don't oversell shares and so forth.. Addtionally because that method is on-top of bitcoin blockchain it will be transparent and auditable for anyone to look at so there will be no cries of fraud like with maidsafe IPO.. An example of an IPO issuance on counterparty is below http://blockscan.com/assetInfo.aspx?q=ROCKMINER

You'll find that Nxt today has a better distribution than BTC so it is odd that you promote BTC over Nxt (I wasn't an early investor).


NXT were brought for total of 21 btc between ~73 stakeholders
current valuation~ 71,450 BTC (very short time later)

340238% profit for lucky few. And how many used alt-accounts to register multiple stakes?

http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=34

not better distribution by any stretch of the imagination as far as I can see.

As far as argument against bitcoin distribution goes. (Excluding satoshis mined stash, which for all we know will be distributed evenly in an act of charity) A huge amount of early coins from 2009- 2011 will never be touched again because the private keys are completely destroyed. Bitcoin was a new paradigm. 1-cpu one vote and anyone could join in
THERE WILL BE Another unfair IPO of Nxt .
All participants are Nxt big stake holders
Nxt is born for unfairness.
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May 15, 2014, 03:51:24 AM
 #119

Update on the IPO.

As of right now, There are 147 sianotes that are still for sale. 49 of these are currently on the AE at 3100 each.
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May 15, 2014, 04:43:01 AM
 #120

Just sent a email to David and Luke about investing in the IPO at the original rate since i PMed them about investing using BTC before the rate change.





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Daedelus
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May 15, 2014, 07:18:30 AM
 #121

Hi,

Can you post the Reed Solomon version of the Nxt address used to issue your asset on the AE? (The version that looks like NXT-sdfcdD-2Dwwe- etc etc )

This is now default in the NRS v1.1.3.

Could you post it here for me to pick up later >>> https://nxtforum.org/index.php?action=pm;f=inbox;sort=date;start=0

Thanks  Grin
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May 15, 2014, 08:02:13 AM
 #122


I didn't invest because frankly I didn't see the thread prior to IPO closure.

How is this Nxt fault if you didn't see the IPO that was open to everyone for 2 months? As for Nem, even if we assume there are no sock puppets and it really has 3000 stakeholders, the world population is 7 billion, so that is very "unfair" distribution too.  You can never have "fair distribution". BTC has even worse distribution with just 1 person holding 10%.  What matters is future adoption and use by wider community, merchants and general public.



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May 15, 2014, 09:00:01 AM
 #123

Update on the IPO.

As of right now, There are 147 sianotes that are still for sale. 49 of these are currently on the AE at 3100 each.
Wasn't the price supposed to be 2400?

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May 15, 2014, 09:20:25 AM
 #124

Wasn't the price supposed to be 2400?

The original price was 2400, but we sold 1/2 of the supply in under 24 hours. So we raised the price. It's been 3 days and we're down to the last 10% shares, so I'm trying to stretch them out.

You can still buy them for 1BTC = 5 sianotes following the BTC method.

I'm not sure how many shares are on the AE at this point but I'm not planning on releasing any more to the AE. (I think there's like 65 available @ 3100 each). After that I'll leave 1 more day (tomorrow) for BTC sales and then the pre-IPO will be complete.

We've hit our funding goal! This is a big deal and we're very pleased with all the support we've gotten from the community. Stay tuned over the next 6 months, we're going to try and have an alpha version released every 30 days or so. The first alpha release will most likely be a single quorum (128 participants) storing a set of files with wallets and intra-quorum transactions.
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May 15, 2014, 09:50:54 AM
 #125

When i saw coolness factor for second i was thinking it would be coin that would lower heating necessary for mining.

Still I don't understand why both SCN and STK when it could be easily one.
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May 15, 2014, 04:25:43 PM
 #126

Wasn't the price supposed to be 2400?

The original price was 2400, but we sold 1/2 of the supply in under 24 hours. So we raised the price. It's been 3 days and we're down to the last 10% shares, so I'm trying to stretch them out.

You can still buy them for 1BTC = 5 sianotes following the BTC method.

I'm not sure how many shares are on the AE at this point but I'm not planning on releasing any more to the AE. (I think there's like 65 available @ 3100 each). After that I'll leave 1 more day (tomorrow) for BTC sales and then the pre-IPO will be complete.

We've hit our funding goal! This is a big deal and we're very pleased with all the support we've gotten from the community. Stay tuned over the next 6 months, we're going to try and have an alpha version released every 30 days or so. The first alpha release will most likely be a single quorum (128 participants) storing a set of files with wallets and intra-quorum transactions.

Congrats, I buy 10 sianotes, good luck!!!

Sorry for my broken English XD
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May 15, 2014, 04:30:16 PM
 #127

Wasn't the price supposed to be 2400?

The original price was 2400, but we sold 1/2 of the supply in under 24 hours. So we raised the price. It's been 3 days and we're down to the last 10% shares, so I'm trying to stretch them out.

You can still buy them for 1BTC = 5 sianotes following the BTC method.

I'm not sure how many shares are on the AE at this point but I'm not planning on releasing any more to the AE. (I think there's like 65 available @ 3100 each). After that I'll leave 1 more day (tomorrow) for BTC sales and then the pre-IPO will be complete.

We've hit our funding goal! This is a big deal and we're very pleased with all the support we've gotten from the community. Stay tuned over the next 6 months, we're going to try and have an alpha version released every 30 days or so. The first alpha release will most likely be a single quorum (128 participants) storing a set of files with wallets and intra-quorum transactions.

Congrats, I buy 10 sianotes, good luke!!!

You r really lucky. I didn't expect it would sell in a minute.

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May 15, 2014, 04:36:32 PM
 #128

 , take brain up..It would be great to integrate it with subtitle support by community into opensource XBMC.

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May 15, 2014, 05:51:05 PM
 #129

When i saw coolness factor for second i was thinking it would be coin that would lower heating necessary for mining.

Well, it's sort of more friendly. With Bitcoin, nothing is happening except heat is being produced. The calculations used for mining are completely worthless for general computing, and the rigs used for mining can't even be repurposed to do anything else (except break certain hash schemes, I suppose.)

Sia on the other hand uses its 'protection' algorithm to produce storage that is available to the general public. So while it's not 'free' in the same sense that a POS (how do we distinguish between proof-of-storage and proof-of-stake?) currency doesn't burn energy, Sia does replace the general datacenter, providing two functions at once. Overall I think Sia would be better for the ecosystem. But the other benefit is economic, because storage on Sia can only be acquired using Siacoins, which causes inherent demand for the Siacoin that's directly related to the value of the storage on Sia.

< this isn't strictly true... Sia relies heavily on fully random numbers, which ends up being very difficult to pull off in a quorum, potentially impossible. The solution we've chosen is a proof-of-work model (and actually, you can just use the existing Bitcoin blockchain), which damages the environmental argument because our random number generation is just as wasteful as traditional POW currencies >

Still I don't understand why both SCN and STK when it could be easily one.

What is unclear? Did you read the economic model?

Siacoin is supposed to be inflationary, because we want to keep the emphasis of the value on the people who are actively contributing to Sia. With Bitcoin, people who provided $1000 worth of mining in the first 6 months have hundreds of thousands of dollars of reward today. Imagine if instead that hundreds of thousands of dollars was going to todays miners. The hashrate would be higher, and the currency would probably also be more stable ("more stable", though I doubt stable enough to defeat the instability argument).

At the same time, we need a way to feed ourselves. At this stage, that meant doing fundraising, which meant we needed some convincing source of value for our investors. Selling a coin that's permanently inflationary didn't sound too attractive to me. The other thing is that I've always felt like premining is a "dirty" way to get money for the developers. It's not clear exactly how much value the developers will have, and there's a large potential for the early adopters to have control over the markets. Someone owning 1% of a currency can perform massive manipulations, and if they're good at manipulating the market they will profit greatly at everyone else's expense.

Siastock derives its value from Siacoin, but the reverse is not true. If someone performs a massive pump-and-dump on Siastock, only Siastock holders will be affected. This rests well with me, because Siastock is designed to be highly speculative. It's where the greatest opportunity for making money is. But it shelters the people who just want to use Sia for storage, as they will be using exclusively Siacoin. Over time (after the initial explosive growth of Sia... [fingers crossed]), the Siacoin should be stable in an inflationary direction, and ultimately a poor long term investment. Siastock on the other hand gains value as Sia gains value, and is a fantastic investment (though risky) for anyone who's confident that Sia as a whole will continue to gain value.

I think that separating Siacoin from Siastock will end up being one of the defining improvements of Sia over other cryptocurrencies.
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May 15, 2014, 08:53:47 PM
 #130

Hi David,

Can you please confirm receipt of my btc deposit via email when you get a chance please.

 Smiley





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May 15, 2014, 09:21:55 PM
 #131

Hi David,

Can you please confirm receipt of my btc deposit via email when you get a chance please.

 Smiley

Yes, I have received your coins, will be sending the sianotes in the next few minutes.

=====================================

I'm announcing the close of our IPO. We will no longer be accepting Bitcoins for sianotes. 27 sianotes are still available on the AE for 3100 each, once these are sold there will be no more added.

Thank you very much for participating.
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May 18, 2014, 09:06:58 PM
 #132

Great idea, interesting project. Good luck
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May 18, 2014, 10:32:23 PM
 #133

Am I late into the party???
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May 18, 2014, 10:38:47 PM
 #134



This is a torrent. 0 idea. want to fuck money "free"
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May 18, 2014, 10:58:54 PM
 #135

Am I late into the party???

You can use Nxt Asset Exchange to buy shares ('sianote' asset)
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May 19, 2014, 12:20:50 AM
 #136

You can use Nxt Asset Exchange to buy shares ('sianote' asset)

We (the developers) are not selling Sianotes any more, but one of the advantages of using the Nxt AE is that a few other people are selling shares that they bought earlier. Especially if you post a buy at a high enough price, you will be able to get your hands on some.

I believe right now there are a few available for 3100, which is the price we (the developers) were selling them for at the end of the fund-raiser.
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May 19, 2014, 05:30:39 PM
 #137

@Taek - does Sia network has to be decentralized? It seems the services that Sia provide do not require Sia network to be decentralized as long as the network is encrypted. The network is encrypted and distributed but the company can be an organized legal entity
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May 20, 2014, 07:36:22 AM
 #138

@Taek - does Sia network has to be decentralized? It seems the services that Sia provide do not require Sia network to be decentralized as long as the network is encrypted. The network is encrypted and distributed but the company can be an organized legal entity

The network does not have to be decentralized, though I think that there are substantial advantages to it being decentralized, from a societal perspective even if that's not what's best for the company. Imagine if the internet were fully centralized, where you had to go through some central server and pay some fee in order to host your own website. It would have killed a lot of random quirky things that ended up being very beautiful.

Siastock gives us the potential to have tens of millions and even hundreds of millions of dollars in annual revenue. For a single product, this is plenty for me.
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May 21, 2014, 02:00:50 PM
 #139

Siastock gives us the potential to have tens of millions and even hundreds of millions of dollars in annual revenue. For a single product, this is plenty for me.

Wow, that is a hefty estimate. Then again I really don't have the competence to judge it wrong or right. But what kind of timeframe do you think this could be accomplished in, potentially?

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May 21, 2014, 03:12:10 PM
 #140

even if sia coin just managed to become a 30m $ USD market cap coin .... it is still going to be 30x from ipo price.
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May 21, 2014, 03:44:20 PM
 #141

Siastock gives us the potential to have tens of millions and even hundreds of millions of dollars in annual revenue. For a single product, this is plenty for me.

Wow, that is a hefty estimate. Then again I really don't have the competence to judge it wrong or right. But what kind of timeframe do you think this could be accomplished in, potentially?

This would be possible if Sia becomes the standard for decentralized crypto storage.  It will take years.
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May 21, 2014, 05:39:34 PM
 #142

When you are ready to raise money for the real ipo which you have mentioned should be at least 10x more expensive are you going to continue

using the NXT asset exchange under the same asset? If you do so only now asking for a much higher price than the pre ipo you will have pre ipo asset

holders undercutting your price to make their profit and you will not raise as much. Can you explain what your plan for this is?
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May 21, 2014, 05:53:04 PM
 #143

When you are ready to raise money for the real ipo which you have mentioned should be at least 10x more expensive are you going to continue

using the NXT asset exchange under the same asset? If you do so only now asking for a much higher price than the pre ipo you will have pre ipo asset

holders undercutting your price to make their profit and you will not raise as much. Can you explain what your plan for this is?

I would assume that they will not use Nxt AE as Siastock will be ready to be issued directly to investors at that point.
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May 21, 2014, 06:54:17 PM
Last edit: May 21, 2014, 08:14:39 PM by Tobo
 #144

When you are ready to raise money for the real ipo which you have mentioned should be at least 10x more expensive are you going to continue
using the NXT asset exchange under the same asset? If you do so only now asking for a much higher price than the pre ipo you will have pre ipo asset
holders undercutting your price to make their profit and you will not raise as much. Can you explain what your plan for this is?

The market will decide the Siastock and Sianote price. In the next run of fundraising, if Sia shows enough progress, the price of Sianotes will increase. It would be stupid for the existing investors to sell low. For instance, during the first run of the Sia pre-IPO, the individual sales prices are always higher than the issuer's sales price. Sia's progress will be reflected on the price of Sianotes on the Nxt AE. Let's watch.
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May 22, 2014, 05:23:31 AM
 #145

When you are ready to raise money for the real ipo which you have mentioned should be at least 10x more expensive are you going to continue

using the NXT asset exchange under the same asset? If you do so only now asking for a much higher price than the pre ipo you will have pre ipo asset

holders undercutting your price to make their profit and you will not raise as much. Can you explain what your plan for this is?

I would assume that they will not use Nxt AE as Siastock will be ready to be issued directly to investors at that point.

I think using the Nxt AE for Siastock even after the IPO would increase exposure for both Nxt and Sia .. Sia isn't going to be used as a currency, It's going to be a much needed storage service for people who care about encryption and privacy. There's already a big community for Nxt, might as well take advantage of  that.
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May 22, 2014, 10:09:50 AM
 #146

But what kind of timeframe do you think this could be accomplished in, potentially?

This would be possible if Sia becomes the standard for decentralized crypto storage.  It will take years.

We have a lot of ambition and believe that Sia has the potential to be the standard for all cloud-based storage. It's very competitive, reliable, cheap, fast, and it's decentralized. Various estimates place the total cloud storage market around $20 billion annually by 2018, and I think that Sia can be a huge chunk of that. 2018 I think is the earliest that we'd start to see mass-adoption, and then by 2020 we could probably be the biggest player on the field.

It's a long timeline.

even if sia coin just managed to become a 30m $ USD market cap coin .... it is still going to be 30x from ipo price.

That's true, but I would be very disappointed if Sia only managed a $30m valuation at peak. That would mean that the storage never really took off. If people actually started using Sia for their high-priority files, $250 million is the lowest value that I could imagine. We're here to play the long game, and we want to become a vital component of everyday internet infrastructure. If we could pull that off, there would be a lot of money involved.

When you are ready to raise money for the real ipo which you have mentioned should be at least 10x more expensive are you going to continue

using the NXT asset exchange under the same asset? If you do so only now asking for a much higher price than the pre ipo you will have pre ipo asset

holders undercutting your price to make their profit and you will not raise as much. Can you explain what your plan for this is?

I would assume that they will not use Nxt AE as Siastock will be ready to be issued directly to investors at that point.

I don't think undercutting is going to be an issue, but the Siastock that's already been sold will be available to anyone who's willing to pay whatever the sellers are selling at. We'll have Sia up and running before we raise our next round, which means we'll be converting Sianotes into Siastock and then selling Siastock directly. We'll have a better grasp of the mechanics of that though when we're closer to that point.

I think using the Nxt AE for Siastock even after the IPO would increase exposure for both Nxt and Sia .. Sia isn't going to be used as a currency, It's going to be a much needed storage service for people who care about encryption and privacy. There's already a big community for Nxt, might as well take advantage of  that.

Sia isn't meant to be used directly as your primary tool for transferring money. But you'll still need Siacoin (a currency) to access storage, and the Sia network will need a simple and trust-free way to distribute fees among the holders of Siastock. I don't think at that point the Nxt AE makes sense anymore. We'll know a lot better when we're further along.
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May 22, 2014, 11:49:04 AM
 #147

As someone who wants to start hosting from the beginning. Is it likely that my beginning storage machines/servers would have to increase storage capacity to be able keep up with increasing adoption of Sia? Would I be able to be compensated for my beginning investment of hardware as a host early enough so that I can start increasing storage capacity through the sia coins mined and compensated for being a host? I know it sounds greedy, but it'd be great to know how much of a benefit it would be for being an early host.
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May 23, 2014, 04:05:20 PM
 #148

As someone who wants to start hosting from the beginning. Is it likely that my beginning storage machines/servers would have to increase storage capacity to be able keep up with increasing adoption of Sia? Would I be able to be compensated for my beginning investment of hardware as a host early enough so that I can start increasing storage capacity through the sia coins mined and compensated for being a host? I know it sounds greedy, but it'd be great to know how much of a benefit it would be for being an early host.

Yes, early adopters will likely see greater returns. Because the cost of storage is managed by a supply-and-demand algorithm, storage becomes cheaper as more people join the network. Over time, providers' "mining rigs" will become more sophisticated (just as we've seen with Bitcoin), so you'll want to increase your margin as much as possible by using a dedicated NAS, RAID array, etc.

Additionally, the value of a siacoin will increase alongside adoption, so you stand to benefit by not cashing out immediately. Long-term, the inflationary nature of the currency will deter people from holding on to siacoins.
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May 24, 2014, 04:46:08 AM
 #149

As someone who wants to start hosting from the beginning. Is it likely that my beginning storage machines/servers would have to increase storage capacity to be able keep up with increasing adoption of Sia? Would I be able to be compensated for my beginning investment of hardware as a host early enough so that I can start increasing storage capacity through the sia coins mined and compensated for being a host? I know it sounds greedy, but it'd be great to know how much of a benefit it would be for being an early host.

Yes, early adopters will likely see greater returns. Because the cost of storage is managed by a supply-and-demand algorithm, storage becomes cheaper as more people join the network. Over time, providers' "mining rigs" will become more sophisticated (just as we've seen with Bitcoin), so you'll want to increase your margin as much as possible by using a dedicated NAS, RAID array, etc.

Additionally, the value of a siacoin will increase alongside adoption, so you stand to benefit by not cashing out immediately. Long-term, the inflationary nature of the currency will deter people from holding on to siacoins.

Thanks for the reply.

Do you have any hardware and raid specifications that would best suited for the sia network? I was thinking of using freeNAS and using raid-z (ZFS),  raid 5 or raid 0 + 1 http://doc.freenas.org/index.php/Hardware_Recommendations

It's not highly sophisticated but it's easy enough to set up for a beginner and from what I've researched most FREENAS users use the zfs raid configuration that would require minimum 8gb ECC ram + 1gb for every TB
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May 24, 2014, 05:23:22 AM
 #150

Thanks for the reply.

Do you have any hardware and raid specifications that would best suited for the sia network? I was thinking of using freeNAS and using raid-z (ZFS),  raid 5 or raid 0 + 1 http://doc.freenas.org/index.php/Hardware_Recommendations

It's not highly sophisticated but it's easy enough to set up for a beginner and from what I've researched most FREENAS users use the zfs raid configuration that would require minimum 8gb ECC ram + 1gb for every TB

So, we don't yet have any hardware recommendations, but when the time is closer to buy bulk storage for Sia we'll be doing some research and testing and sharing some guides. At the very least I think you'd want RAID 5, though ZFS may end up being more efficient. When one of your hard drives fail on Sia, you can repair it using Sia but that's going to require downloading an enormous amount of data (for each TB lost you'll need to pay for 4-8TB of network traffic. You'll only end up downloading about 1TB but that's because other nodes on the network are helping you move the process along. The numbers aren't fully worked out but they're not friendly). Because you can expect hard drives to fail frequently, you should have a local backup to save yourself the bandwidth. But because Sia is also doing redundancy, you'll only need 99% uptime instead of 99.999...% uptime.

You shouldn't need a ton of RAM. Instead you'll end up storing most of what would be in RAM on-disk. We'll be optimizing rigs so that the most expensive component is by far the storage and not the processor or case or anything else.

There will be a 10mpbs connection speed requirement for all participants. Each participant will need 10mpbs in bursts, so one participant requires a 10mbps connection (even if you only contribute 64GB). Because the network randomizes these bursts though (and they are infrequent), a single 10mbps connection should be able to support storage of several TB.

But again we'll write many pages of documentation on this so a newbie to Sia can catch up relatively easy and feel like they are optimizing the amount of money they make.
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May 24, 2014, 10:29:33 AM
 #151

So, we don't yet have any hardware recommendations, but when the time is closer to buy bulk storage for Sia we'll be doing some research and testing and sharing some guides. At the very least I think you'd want RAID 5, though ZFS may end up being more efficient. When one of your hard drives fail on Sia, you can repair it using Sia but that's going to require downloading an enormous amount of data (for each TB lost you'll need to pay for 4-8TB of network traffic. You'll only end up downloading about 1TB but that's because other nodes on the network are helping you move the process along. The numbers aren't fully worked out but they're not friendly). Because you can expect hard drives to fail frequently, you should have a local backup to save yourself the bandwidth. But because Sia is also doing redundancy, you'll only need 99% uptime instead of 99.999...% uptime.

You shouldn't need a ton of RAM. Instead you'll end up storing most of what would be in RAM on-disk. We'll be optimizing rigs so that the most expensive component is by far the storage and not the processor or case or anything else.

There will be a 10mpbs connection speed requirement for all participants. Each participant will need 10mpbs in bursts, so one participant requires a 10mbps connection (even if you only contribute 64GB). Because the network randomizes these bursts though (and they are infrequent), a single 10mbps connection should be able to support storage of several TB.

But again we'll write many pages of documentation on this so a newbie to Sia can catch up relatively easy and feel like they are optimizing the amount of money they make.

Thanks a lot. I already have in mind what I want to do with the NAS. As I've mentioned before (or perhaps I haven't) I'll be taking advantage of my offices 100/100 Mbps fibre optics. Unethical I know but I'm the network admin there so I do what I want.

With the client, would we be able control how much bandwidth you are providing to the network? I was thinking it would be a good idea if you are able to set a schedule on the times you are able to provide maximum bandwidth to the SIA network. For example me setting a cap of 100/100 Mbps between 5pm and 8am (Non work hours) and a cap of 20/20 Mbps between 8am and 5pm (work hours).
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May 24, 2014, 02:55:14 PM
 #152

Can one computer/server have two hosts/participants? For a quorum, is it true that the only time for a quorum to be down is the time that the quorum loses all 28 redundancies and one or more of the other 100 participants are down? How does a quorum or host get recovered from catastrophes?
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May 25, 2014, 07:43:27 AM
 #153

Can one computer/server have two hosts/participants?

Yes, one server can host many participants, each at 64GB (revised from the original 8GB). It's expected that most servers will have on the order of dozens of participants, and we're trying to write the program such that a modest machine (maybe $300) can handle all of the computational power required to operate ~20-50 TB. These are all vague estimates at this point.

For a quorum, is it true that the only time for a quorum to be down is the time that the quorum loses all 28 redundancies and one or more of the other 100 participants are down? How does a quorum or host get recovered from catastrophes?

So, this has a lot of answers. Quorum-important data like error-detection and wallet info, as well as the block history is either stored at full redundancy (everyone in the quorum has a full copy) or at a redundancy of 8. So wallet data and other equally important data will only be lost if 112 out of 128 participants go offline at the same time. This gives us extremely high reliability, even when the assumption is that 50% of the network is dishonest.

Files on the other hand get to choose their redundancy. If you are storing extremely important documents (like your private keys, for example), you'll want to choose the maximum grade redundancy. This comes at a cost, instead of paying $5 per TB per month, you'll be paying $50 per TB per month. But if you're only storing 100kb at that price, who cares? For everyday files, you'll want to pick a more reasonable redundancy, like 100 out of 128, which means that your file will only be lost if 28 participants disappear at the same time. Assuming no malice and reasonable uptime (like 98%) per participant, it's extremely unlikely that you'd lose the file. We let users pick their redundancy because everyone is going to have different levels of paranoia/trust in the system, and we don't want to force one person to pay what they consider to be 10% too much and force another person to have redundancy that they worry is too little.

When one or more participants go offline, the network immediately replaces them with new participants. This involves having the new participants download the files and error-correct them and consumes a lot of bandwidth. This can be optimized in a few ways and we're exploring the best way to handle this. Overall, replacing a lost participant should take something in the 6-8hr range, and even less if the new guy has lots of bandwidth. That's why we set the default at 100 non-redunant participants. Assuming 98% uptime, it's going to be extremely rare that 28 out of 128 go offline in the same 8 hour window.

If the network is malicious though, and 50% of participants are cooperating to take down a file, they can all go offline together and a 99.9% uptime wouldn't save the file. If you're paranoid about your file being attacked, you should use the 8 redundancy that the network as a whole uses. (16 non-redundant participants)
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May 25, 2014, 11:30:45 AM
 #154

I guess that the participants can also back up their own file by themselves to make an extra layer of safety.
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May 25, 2014, 07:25:54 PM
 #155

With the client, would we be able control how much bandwidth you are providing to the network? I was thinking it would be a good idea if you are able to set a schedule on the times you are able to provide maximum bandwidth to the SIA network. For example me setting a cap of 100/100 Mbps between 5pm and 8am (Non work hours) and a cap of 20/20 Mbps between 8am and 5pm (work hours).

That's a good suggestion. It should be relatively straightforward to implement scheduled rate-limiting; any half-decent torrent client does. Of course, you'll have to maintain some minimum bandwidth at all times.
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May 29, 2014, 01:52:38 PM
 #156

I'm happy to announce that we are starting to implement one of my favorite features: wallet-based approval of transactions instead of signature based approval of transactions. This sort of works like a script.

Wallets will have balances, scripts, and a way to interact with a script. This script will have the power to submit updates and transactions (such as allocating storage or editing a file, or of course sending money to another wallet). The rules of the output depend entirely upon what script is loaded into the wallet.

The typical signature-based-transaction behaviour can be simulated by having a public key in the data field (or several public keys in the data field. Or pointers to files that have whole lists of public keys... you get the point) and verifying an input+signature against the public key.

The script is going to be a full turing machine, and Luke (nemo) has started working on the details of the script. It's going to be a bytecode where each instruction has costs some volume of money (to discourage long scripts) and a timeout, in case an infinite loop occurs or more computation is allocated than the quorum has the ability to compute against. The script will also have access to higher level functions such as 'verify signature', that way verifications don't need to be written by-hand using the bytecoin.

This is all a ways away from being implemented but we've been making good progress.
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May 29, 2014, 03:08:04 PM
 #157

Thanks for the update!
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May 29, 2014, 04:38:42 PM
 #158

Thanks for the update!

+1, thanks for keeping us updated.
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June 02, 2014, 12:44:29 AM
 #159

Thanks for the update!  Grin
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June 04, 2014, 12:54:48 PM
 #160

http://gigaom.com/2014/06/03/sec-charges-owner-of-bitcoin-sites-for-selling-unregistered-securities/

In light of this new article, I wanted to post about the legal status of Sia and Sianotes. Nothing that follows is a legally binding statement, we are working with our lawyers to get something that is legally binding. Cryptocurrency is a tricky field and it's taking a long time for us to get the legal statements we want. I believe we talked briefly about securities, and I believe that we were reassured that Sianotes are not securities, but we will be discussing the subject again.

I'm now going to list a set of statement that are similar to what you might see from the legally binding statement. None of the statements contained in this post are legally binding as they have not been reviewed by a lawyer. I'm expecting the legal statements to be similar, however it's hard to predict as I am not a lawyer.

Sianotes are not corporate equity.
Siastock is not corporate equity.
Sianotes have no cash value.
Siastock has no cash value.
Sianotes are owned/managed by Nebulous Incorporated. All liability falls upon the corporation and not upon myself or Luke.
Sianotes will eventually be converted to Siastock.
Siastock will be a source of income. Therefore, Sianotes represent a promise of future payments.
Hosts on Sia will have an income, part of this income will be taken as a fee and distributed among the owners of Siastock.
Host income is defined as 'payment for storage provided.' The only income that is taxed is income from offering storage. Other potential fees such as transaction fees, bandwidth fees, and computational fees are not included. Also not included are transactions sent directly to the host account.
1 Sianote is the promise of (1/10,000 * 0.039) of all host income, or 0.00039% of all host income.
Sianotes may not be redeemed until the completion and launch of Sia.
Sianotes do not apply to any alphas, betas, or test networks.

If there have been any misunderstandings (such as the expectation that you were buying corporate equity), please contact me.

We want Sia to be a legally recognized and supported product. We are doing everything we can to make this possible. I had hoped to make a legal statement without making a non-legally binding statement first, but I feel like it's an important issue and the legal statement is taking too long to construct. Especially if we have to register with the SEC or something, we could be delayed multiple weeks.

In the mean time though we've got lots of time to code. Most of the delays are scheduling and waiting for responses. The codebase is coming along nicely.

I want to say one last time that nothing in this post is legally binding. We're doing everything that we can to protect ourselves and Sia from legal prosecution and potential lawsuits. These protections must be applied carefully, and that takes time. Luckily, thus far it has not been very expensive or time-wasting, it's just been a slow process.

Thanks again for all of the support, we hope to have more updates soon.
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June 04, 2014, 01:23:40 PM
 #161

Sounds good!
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June 05, 2014, 05:10:34 AM
 #162

Please Google 'Permacoin', Microsoft wants to create this Permacoin, it mentions storage thing.
I think there maybe some similar ideas with sia?

QORA | 2ND GEN | NEW SOURCE CODE | QM8Q7itiFjs9b2QaXgDuedT8cfX5qaYeqC
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June 05, 2014, 11:55:25 AM
 #163

Please Google 'Permacoin', Microsoft wants to create this Permacoin, it mentions storage thing.
I think there maybe some similar ideas with sia?

So I guess I'll start with my concerns, because it's good to recognize the things that scare you. First, this has Microsoft's name all over it, which is hyper intimidating. That's something MaidSAFE, Cryptosphere, Bitcloud don't have behind them. Out of those competitors, the best will win because nobody has marketing power. With Microsoft backing something, it could win even it it's outright toxic to its users. So that's got me on edge. Second, this paper has a lot of intellectual clout behind it. Microsoft Research, Google is mentioned, Gregory Maxwell is mentioned. They're coming from a strong position.

"Large datacen-
ters enjoy economies of scale and save costs on bulk power
and cooling; even Amazon Glacier, which, as mentioned in
Section 6, most closely matches our operating points (cheap
to store, expensive to recover), is much cheaper per gigabyte
and offers similar features like geographic replication of data"

So, if I'm reading this correctly, they claim that Amazon Glacier is much cheaper per GB than permacoin. This will not-even-close to be true for Sia. Sia is the cheapest, fastest, best distributed system I've read about, and Permacoin doesn't appear to be able to make the same claims.

They don't use quorums, which will probably prevent them from being able to come close. Also, Microsoft's name is on it, but it seems to be a research idea and not part of the Microsoft product line, which is reassuring for Sia.

I need to give this paper a lot more time to fully understand it, but the approach is considerably different from Sia (though they use many of the same tricks). Sia's goal has become to provide cheap, fast, robust/redundant storage, and all of our design decisions are based around optimizing for that.

But at the very least it's clear that Sia is not alone. I wonder if Google or Amazon or Apple will step forward into this space. It's a very hot place to be and they've got access to some of the brightest minds in the world.
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June 05, 2014, 01:32:22 PM
 #164

Now, I admire your technology and market judgment more than before.
If sia comes out as planned, there is no doubt that sia will be something huge.
Just go for it!

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June 06, 2014, 01:56:35 PM
 #165

Please Google 'Permacoin', Microsoft wants to create this Permacoin, it mentions storage thing.
I think there maybe some similar ideas with sia?

Interesting. Microsoft is sponsoring a decentralized solution. It sounds weird.
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June 06, 2014, 05:18:59 PM
 #166

How can  I get some coins now
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June 06, 2014, 05:28:51 PM
 #167

How can  I get some coins now


Nxt Asset (always good to read 1st page  Wink )
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June 07, 2014, 12:44:54 AM
 #168

How can  I get some coins now


Nxt Asset (always good to read 1st page  Wink )
sianote in nxt asset has been sold out.
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June 07, 2014, 12:51:52 AM
 #169

How can  I get some coins now


Nxt Asset (always good to read 1st page  Wink )
sianote in nxt asset has been sold out.

People are selling it, but not from the issuer Smiley





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SuperNET.org
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June 07, 2014, 02:31:52 AM
 #170

Is there an IPO for this coin, I know pre-IPO has ended.
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June 07, 2014, 03:03:30 AM
Last edit: June 07, 2014, 03:26:10 AM by Taek
 #171

So, the pre-IPO has ended, but you can still get pre-IPO shares by visiting the NXT AE and getting the Sianotes. Within the next few days we'll be updating the website to explain what Sianotes are, how to get them, and what Sianotes are not. Before spending significant sums of money, you should be confident about what exactly a Sianote can be traded for. Depending on how much money we have and need, and how much attention we get from Venture Capitalists, we may or may not do an IPO. Siastock is going to be our primary form of income, so we are looking to hold onto a lot of that. Siacoin on the other hand is inflationary, so distribution problems should never be an issue. Early on, we'll probably be giving away a good amount of Siacoin to encourage people to use the network.  I'm not committing to anything though because a lot will be changing between now and launch.

I've got most of the wallet stuff worked out (and now partially implemented), so I'm going to go ahead and explain the workings a bit.

First, everything on Sia is script oriented. Instead of needing transactions to be signed by some authority (like the owner of a wallet), they only need to be approved by a script. This script is turing complete (though you'll get cut off if you run too long - the process is a bit more flexible and complicated than that but I'll save it for another post) and takes some input, which is processed before the script submits some actions to the network.

By doing this, you can emulate the use of public keys. Imagine that the first N bytes are a script that looks at the M bytes following the script, and M is a public key. The N bytes look at the input and assume that the first R bytes are a signature of the remaining bytes. If the signature matches the public key stored on disk, the input is accepted and run as the script.

But you can also allow for purely algorithmic actions. For example, you could have a script that takes as input a transaction (this is allowed - you can send money to a script and have it accompanied by input to the wallet script) and then generate a random number (scripts have access to the quorum's secure random number generator) between 0 and 6. If the number is 6, then 4 times the input is returned to the sender. You now have completely decentralized gambling run by a wallet that needs no interfacing to a third party.

But because scripts are turing complete, you can do much fancier things as well. Email, for example. Someone sends you an email by doing a transaction with an input message. The script then takes the message and stores it to disk automatically, but only accepts the message if the transaction contains enough to store the message for N days.

You could even potentially store an entire altcoin on Sia using script logic. Imagine that the input is a Bitcoin block. The script then figures out if the block is valid and stores it in memory, rejecting it otherwise. You then have a decentralized, automated archive for the Bitcoin blockchain that's secure and is being stored at a low redundancy. No central authorities or signatures necessary. So, it's a very powerful system (though it's got some constraints because it's not super efficient - probably 200-500x as expensive as doing it on your local machine. In terms of running Bitcoin though it's better, because it's a 1 time cost of 200-500x, as opposed to 1x times the number of nodes on the Bitcoin network.) The minimum size for a wallet is 4kb stored at redundancy 127 across 3 snapshots (the snapshot system allows for verifications and allows people to listen on quorums without needing the full list of scripts, which could potentially be very large - that's also going to be in another post), which is 4kb * 127 * 3 = ~1.5mb. This probably sounds like a lot, but assuming 1TB of raw storage gets priced around $5/mo, a wallet is going to run something like 0.001 cents per year. Very, very affordable.

I'm not sure what the max size for a script is going to be, but scripts are going to have the same required 127*3 redundancy, so they'll be moderately expensive. While the limit will probably be small (like 1mb), there will be techniques that allow you to chain multiple scripts together across wallets.
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June 09, 2014, 06:21:09 AM
 #172

Good work, can't wait to see the wallet and scripts,  Grin

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June 09, 2014, 09:06:14 AM
 #173

way overpriced

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June 09, 2014, 01:31:49 PM
 #174

way overpriced

Would you like to justify that? Right now Siastock has a market cap somewhere around $2m, which is in the top 30 coins. But Sia easily has enough potential to overtake all of the trivial coins, which would put its cap above $10m. But the potential here is a lot bigger than that. We're storage in a coin, and we do the storage part better than MaidSAFE, which has a much higher price than Sia.

The only reason that Sia is not worth substantial more is that the coin is not complete yet. But we're very close to having an alpha that people will be able to play around with. I reckon we can have an alpha out by July 1st with file storage (not done), proof-of-storage (mostly done), wallet transactions (mostly done), script wallets (done - at least done as far as alpha goes), and quorum based byzantine consensus (done for a while).
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June 09, 2014, 03:34:23 PM
 #175

way overpriced

way underpriced
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June 09, 2014, 09:56:49 PM
 #176

way overpriced

Would you like to justify that? Right now Siastock has a market cap somewhere around $2m, which is in the top 30 coins. But Sia easily has enough potential to overtake all of the trivial coins, which would put its cap above $10m. But the potential here is a lot bigger than that. We're storage in a coin, and we do the storage part better than MaidSAFE, which has a much higher price than Sia.

The only reason that Sia is not worth substantial more is that the coin is not complete yet. But we're very close to having an alpha that people will be able to play around with. I reckon we can have an alpha out by July 1st with file storage (not done), proof-of-storage (mostly done), wallet transactions (mostly done), script wallets (done - at least done as far as alpha goes), and quorum based byzantine consensus (done for a while).

sounds good bro

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June 10, 2014, 03:33:48 PM
 #177

way underpriced

Agreed. Sia is not a crypto currency like bitcoin and its clone. It is a business model for data storage. There is a big utility and demand for it on the market. There is no comparison between Sia and current crypto currencies. Maybe the closest one is Maidsafe. But Maidsafe is not in production yet.
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June 12, 2014, 01:48:02 PM
 #178

Alright it took a while, but the website is finally updated with information on Sianotes and how to buy them. Thanks for the patience!
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June 12, 2014, 04:14:19 PM
 #179

Alright it took a while, but the website is finally updated with information on Sianotes and how to buy them. Thanks for the patience!

+1, http://www.siacoin.com for those too lazy to read OP
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June 12, 2014, 10:55:29 PM
 #180

way overpriced

Would you like to justify that? Right now Siastock has a market cap somewhere around $2m, which is in the top 30 coins. But Sia easily has enough potential to overtake all of the trivial coins, which would put its cap above $10m. But the potential here is a lot bigger than that. We're storage in a coin, and we do the storage part better than MaidSAFE, which has a much higher price than Sia.

The only reason that Sia is not worth substantial more is that the coin is not complete yet. But we're very close to having an alpha that people will be able to play around with. I reckon we can have an alpha out by July 1st with file storage (not done), proof-of-storage (mostly done), wallet transactions (mostly done), script wallets (done - at least done as far as alpha goes), and quorum based byzantine consensus (done for a while).

Can't wait :-)





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June 16, 2014, 01:44:17 PM
 #181

Isle of Man can be an option if legal issues in US are too troublesome - https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/nxt-crypto-valley-its-time-to-get-serious!/msg46069/#msg46069
 
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June 19, 2014, 02:18:57 AM
 #182

Dev would you be able to give us weekly progress reports if it is not too much of a issue?





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Taek
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June 19, 2014, 04:22:13 AM
 #183

Wow! I guess it's been a full week at this point.

Things have moved along well. We're pretty close to an alpha, and pretty close to working on files.

What you can do:

1. bootstrap a quorum and add siblings using wallet scripts
2. The default bootstrap wallet premines 15,000 coins and has a script body that allows arbitrary people to request new wallets that have 100 coins each. This can obviously be abused, but for the alpha we're not worried about it.
3. The default script body for wallets can send transactions and join the quorum as a sibling
4. Wallet weights work, and you can allocate storage (kinda, there's no script that allows you to do this, but that's pretty trivial. The real problem is that you can't upload data yet).

So, apart from a few things, we have pretty much a full cryptocurrency working at a single-quorum level, which is all we're looking for at the alpha level.

What we still need:

signatures - nothing uses signatures/public keys yet except for siblings, which means that anybody can perform actions upon wallets. This should be done in a few days (Luke's working on it)
nonces - scripts submitted once can be submitted again. This is a huge security problem! This will be fixed in a few days (I'm working on it)
uploading files - to upload files securely, you have to go through a staged process. Right now I'm working on the staged process (this is actually the same code that enables nonces). After that we'll need to implement the remaining erasure coding (erasure coding is already implemented at a broad level, so the new erasure coding should be easy). This should be done in about a week.
rewarding participants - this should be super trivial
having a max volume of data stored on quorum - also pretty trivial
proof of storage - most of the framework is already in place, should only take a day or two once file uploading has been finished
non-expert client - right now you pretty much need to read the code to figure out how the client and server work, and beyond that you still won't understand most of the output. By the alpha we'll have a client and server that explain themselves and come with a guide. But it will still be pretty far from intuitive or friendly.
better testing - everything is pretty buggy. The codebase is good but we've lightened up a lot on the testing these past 2 weeks. This means a lot more simple errors have slipped through. The initial alpha release will probably not be much better, and will have occasional bugs that may crash the program and kick you from the quorum. Pretty much all of these bugs should have a 1 line fix.

So, we're getting close to an alpha. Things are looking really good. You can test out what we do have by forking us on github or just cloning the source repo. There's not much to play with at this point but the scripting is really far along. If you're feeling adventurous you can try writing your own script bodies and script inputs. The alpha will hopefully have about a half-dozen examples.
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June 19, 2014, 04:55:22 AM
 #184

Thanks for the update Smiley






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