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Author Topic: rpietila Altcoin Observer  (Read 387450 times)
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fluffypony
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August 14, 2014, 10:01:42 PM
 #3301

I don't really care about the back-and-forth you have with people that think XMR is awesome, that's your prerogative. But there are a few things you've stumbled over where you reply to aminorex (not a member of the core team) about stuff that the core team organises. So I felt it prudent to respond.

Do you know who else organized fireside chats? satanistic bonfire cults! (ok that was a joke) but 'monero missives' - both of them give me the heebie jeebies just hearing it. I feel like I'm in Jonestown here.  I don't want to warm my toes and roast marshmallows and I don't want to read captains logs. Just a plain ol' monero chat and weekly report is fine with me. Little less eccentric, doesn't sound quite as exclusive though.

Regardless of how eccentric anyone is, the core team did not decide on these things for the sake of eccentricity.

The Monero Missive is meant to be a platform to provide an overview of the week, as well as as a way to announce things so that they don't get lost in the main ANN thread. I'm quite unsure as to how a little alliteration can give you the "heebie jeebies". If you're that sensitive I fear the Internet is the wrong playground for you.

Coupled with the Monero Missive is the weekly Dev Diary (oh dear, more alliteration, however will you cope). Whilst the content of the Missive is more easily digestible, the Dev Diary goes into greater technical detail for those efforts.

The #Monero-Dev Fireside Chats are irregular events aimed at, you guessed it, developers. Yes, we used the first one to show off the new GUI, but the bulk of it focused on developer-centric discussions of ongoing efforts. You are not really our target audience for that unless you're a contributor or you're building services around Monero, so feel free to completely disregard them.

Actually the news, that can't be revealed yet but is big enough to warrant buying is pretty much verbatim from what I've read.

I've spotted this mentioned too, and I can tell you that I honestly have no cooking clue what they're talking about. We don't play our cards that close to our chest, everything is pretty out there and in the open. Some of the stuff is mostly discussed on IRC and on github issues, sure, but our current work is no secret.

There are definitely other aspects of your post I don't disagree with, but I, for one, would appreciate you not leveraging criticism meant for the core team at someone else who is not responsible for the Missives or Fireside Chats.

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August 14, 2014, 10:23:00 PM
 #3302

This thread was created towards the end of May, and as you can see from http://monerochain.info/charts/transactions
that's where it began to get a bit of traction. I agree this scene is so fast moving, and agree it definitely had an affect,  but it still doesn't seem such a huge gap, especially taking into account the lower price and less-steep emission curve of BBR

This thread was created because because Monero was already getting enough speculative interest to attract rpietila's attention. Look at the graph on the old OTC thread. There was a day in mid-May when 50K XMR traded at a price of about 0.001. That's 50 BTC which is a huge amount for a coin not even trading on any major exchange at all! On May 20 (6 days before this thread), it traded over 100K XMR.

So yes that early period played a huge role.
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August 14, 2014, 11:04:52 PM
 #3303

This thread was created towards the end of May, and as you can see from http://monerochain.info/charts/transactions
that's where it began to get a bit of traction. I agree this scene is so fast moving, and agree it definitely had an affect,  but it still doesn't seem such a huge gap, especially taking into account the lower price and less-steep emission curve of BBR

This thread was created because because Monero was already getting enough speculative interest to attract rpietila's attention. Look at the graph on the old OTC thread. There was a day in mid-May when 50K XMR traded at a price of about 0.001. That's 50 BTC which is a huge amount for a coin not even trading on any major exchange at all! On May 20 (6 days before this thread), it traded over 100K XMR.

So yes that early period played a huge role.

I know this is not probably possible but in the world of my dreams CZ would unite with Monero team and Monero will overcome Bitcoin...
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August 14, 2014, 11:11:13 PM
 #3304

This thread was created towards the end of May, and as you can see from http://monerochain.info/charts/transactions
that's where it began to get a bit of traction. I agree this scene is so fast moving, and agree it definitely had an affect,  but it still doesn't seem such a huge gap, especially taking into account the lower price and less-steep emission curve of BBR

This thread was created because because Monero was already getting enough speculative interest to attract rpietila's attention. Look at the graph on the old OTC thread. There was a day in mid-May when 50K XMR traded at a price of about 0.001. That's 50 BTC which is a huge amount for a coin not even trading on any major exchange at all! On May 20 (6 days before this thread), it traded over 100K XMR.

So yes that early period played a huge role.

I know this is not probably possible but in the world of my dreams CZ would unite with Monero team and Monero will overcome Bitcoin...

Not remotely possible IMO.

People have suggested that zoidberg joining Monero would make a "dream team" but the Monero team and zoidberg are not on the same page, development wise or philosophically. They do not see eye to eye on the same issues. 
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August 14, 2014, 11:14:39 PM
 #3305

IMO it's great to have a "lite" version of XMR.

Generates a little competition and more buzz for CN.

If you're put off, just hedge 1-2% of your XMR to BBR and maybe even other top CN coins. That's what I did.


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August 14, 2014, 11:21:38 PM
 #3306

There is a coin called Credits (by now) being developed targeted for instant confirmations. It is said to be based on Proof of Consensus (which seems to be some kind of distributed voting for a block). I would like to ask someone knowledgeable in Game theory/statistics to take a look at the theory laying behind it. This message and the following discussion.

Thanks.

Wow, this thread is a wealth of information. If haven't been following maybe would have missed that.

Maybe most interesting coin of 2014. Can't wait to see how it rolls out.
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August 14, 2014, 11:22:17 PM
Last edit: August 14, 2014, 11:51:09 PM by aminorex
 #3307

I'm all for topical threads but there's a point when it becomes OTT.

I think there are a few too many Monero threads myself.  I expect any excess threads will scroll off the front page quickly, however.  It's a problem with the seeds of its own solution.

Quote
Judging by how much effort you put into evangelizing this you surely should have poured more BTC in than me. So what will you be able to buy?  Shocked

If I just burn flow money I can do about 250 XMR/diem on a sustained basis.  If I do well on the markets, I can do more.  But the first would be imprudent, and the second is somewhat unpredictable.

Quote
My views on trying to apply Tea leaf analysis to an emerging altcoin...
Mine vary with the technique.  

Analysing fundamentals seems to do well when you can get appropriate data, but it is slow to play out, typically.

Some technical aspects are informative, but most are not, as far as I can tell.  All anybody should be looking for there is a slight edge.

Quote
And What you talk about with wining and dining... is nothing more than sexed up pumping. ...  There's absolutely no reason to have posted what you posted unless you wanted to affect sentiment, or perhaps it was just an excuse to make yourself sound good. I'd wager a bit of both...

That's fair.  It's all factual, however.  

I certainly don't mind gaining face in the XMR or BTC communities.  It doesn't mean a lot to me, and anything I do will be oriented towards building the coin.  One way is to be encouraging to weak holders.  Strengthen their hands.  That requires credibility.  I fail a bit out of whimsy, on the point.  But hey, I play here to blow of steam.  

Quote
Quote
* it is the ONLY alt worth investing in

It is the only alt which has a leadership position in competition for what may be the largest market opportunity in history:  Primary provider of global, instant, private liquidity.  That does discriminate it from all other coins.  That doesn't mean that other crypto is not investable.  It does mean that by far the largest potential gains are in XMR.  

XMR is simply not the only coin with a leadership position for the largest market opportunity in history.

Here we have substantive disagreement.  You've done nothing substantive to change my view on this point.  I invite you to do so, please, if you think I'm wrong.

Quote
it's one horse against many.

It's Seattle Slew amongst glue-factory nags.

Quote
BTC is perfectly fine for the ones who are actually aware of it, they don't even have a concern for more privacy.

They will soon, I expect.  How soon is hard to judge.

Quote
Primary provider of global instant liquidity, getting a little ahead of yourself there.

That is the nature of forward looking statements.

Quote
Quote
Tell me what is irrational about my post, please?  I counsel against emotional investing.  I advocate an investment because I consider it beneficial.  I warn that it will be volatile.  I encourage discipline in holding to a long-term plan.  I counsel against excess leverage.  I do it in a colloquial style, with a dash of flourish, which may not be adapted to your humor, but these are sound, responsible positions
.

What's irrational? well maybe the part about when you get depressed about a decline you'll resort to a meth binge washed down with southern comfort and just keep on buying up past the point of despair. Don't they have a name for that. irrational exuberance or something, gambling addiction?

Strength of conviction, endurance.  It wins wars.  (They give amphetamines to fighter pilots.  Gin is called "dutch courage".)   "Jihad" is first and foremost the struggle against oneself, I am told.  Rational action is often achieved by a tremendous force of will, overcoming emotional impulses.

Quote
maybe you can try convincing that propdesk trader to buy into your same alpha-level, command-line based cryptonote fork.

I can assure you that I will.  Hopefully with a more effective argument strategy than the one you suggest.  What has worked for me so far is talking about the enormous asymmetry and effective leverage of the return profile and the lack of correlation to other assets.  Well capitalized investors who have acted on my suggestion have primarily done so, with rare exceptions, because it is a cheap hedge for certain categories of extreme tail risk which are otherwise difficult to hedge.  

Quote
I'm simply sick of hearing too much XMR and not enough BBR. As I wrote before I think BBR is a more likely candidate for a 2x,3x, 5x rise, therefore I see it as disingenuous to promote XMR and not mention BBR.

With a 32x marketcap difference, BBR isn't on my radar, and I don't think it should be on anyone's radar, if they need any liquidity.  Punters who want to play with nickels and dimes have a different set of interests.  It's just not relevant to mine.  32x means they just aren't in the same ballpark.  
 
That 100BTC BBR buy a week or two ago is down almost 50% now.  I'd be more inclined to warn against BBR investment, to friends and family, than to remind them of it.  A liquidity provider should, first and foremost, provide liquidity.  XMR is barely acceptable for tiny positions today on that basis.  But an accumulation of tiny positions will bring it up the ranks.  BBR can't support anything but a lottery ticket at this point.

BTC is the big leagues of crypto.  XMR isn't anywhere near it.  But I am convinced that it can be, and in light of currently available information likely will be in time - barring some dramatic new development, which is not all that unlikely, but can't really be predicted (by me) very well.  BBR, not so much.

Thank you for the lively exchange.



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August 14, 2014, 11:56:37 PM
 #3308

I'm all for topical threads but there's a point when it becomes OTT.

I think there are a few too many Monero threads myself.  I expect any excess threads will scroll off the front page quickly, however.  It's a problem with the seeds of its own solution.

Quote
Judging by how much effort you put into evangelizing this you surely should have poured more BTC in than me. So what will you be able to buy?  Shocked

If I just burn flow money I can do about 250 XMR/diem on a sustained basis.  If I do well on the markets, I can do more.  But the first would be imprudent, and the second is somewhat unpredictable.

Quote
My views on trying to apply Tea leaf analysis to an emerging altcoin...
Mine vary with the technique.  

Analysing fundamentals seems to do well when you can get appropriate data, but it is slow to play out, typically.

Some technical aspects are informative, but most are not, as far as I can tell.  All anybody should be looking for there is a slight edge.

Quote
And What you talk about with wining and dining... is nothing more than sexed up pumping. ...  There's absolutely no reason to have posted what you posted unless you wanted to affect sentiment, or perhaps it was just an excuse to make yourself sound good. I'd wager a bit of both...

That's fair.  It's all factual, however.  

I certainly don't mind gaining face in the XMR or BTC communities.  It doesn't mean a lot to me, and anything I do will be oriented towards building the coin.  One way is to be encouraging to weak holders.  Strengthen their hands.  That requires credibility.  I fail a bit out of whimsy, on the point.  But hey, I play here to blow of steam.  

Quote
Quote
* it is the ONLY alt worth investing in

It is the only alt which has a leadership position in competition for what may be the largest market opportunity in history:  Primary provider of global, instant, private liquidity.  That does discriminate it from all other coins.  That doesn't mean that other crypto is not investable.  It does mean that by far the largest potential gains are in XMR.  

XMR is simply not the only coin with a leadership position for the largest market opportunity in history.

Here we have substantive disagreement.  You've done nothing substantive to change my view on this point.  I invite you to do so, please, if you think I'm wrong.

Quote
it's one horse against many.

It's Seattle Slew amongst glue-factory nags.

Quote
BTC is perfectly fine for the ones who are actually aware of it, they don't even have a concern for more privacy.

They will soon, I expect.  How soon is hard to judge.

Quote
Primary provider of global instant liquidity, getting a little ahead of yourself there.

That is the nature of forward looking statements.

Quote
Quote
Tell me what is irrational about my post, please?  I counsel against emotional investing.  I advocate an investment because I consider it beneficial.  I warn that it will be volatile.  I encourage discipline in holding to a long-term plan.  I counsel against excess leverage.  I do it in a colloquial style, with a dash of flourish, which may not be adapted to your humor, but these are sound, responsible positions
.

What's irrational? well maybe the part about when you get depressed about a decline you'll resort to a meth binge washed down with southern comfort and just keep on buying up past the point of despair. Don't they have a name for that. irrational exuberance or something, gambling addiction?

Strength of conviction, endurance.  It wins wars.  (They give amphetamines to fighter pilots.  Gin is called "dutch courage".)   "Jihad" is first and foremost the struggle against oneself, I am told.  Rational action is often achieved by a tremendous force of will, overcoming emotional impulses.

Quote
maybe you can try convincing that propdesk trader to buy into your same alpha-level, command-line based cryptonote fork.

I can assure you that I will.  Hopefully with a more effective argument strategy than the one you suggest.  What has worked for me so far is talking about the enormous asymmetry and effective leverage of the return profile and the lack of correlation to other assets.  Well capitalized investors who have acted on my suggestion have primarily done so, with rare exceptions, because it is a cheap hedge for certain categories of extreme tail risk which are otherwise difficult to hedge.  

Quote
I'm simply sick of hearing too much XMR and not enough BBR. As I wrote before I think BBR is a more likely candidate for a 2x,3x, 5x rise, therefore I see it as disingenuous to promote XMR and not mention BBR.

With a 32x marketcap difference, BBR isn't on my radar, and I don't think it should be on anyone's radar, if they need any liquidity.  Punters who want to play with nickels and dimes have a different set of interests.  It's just not relevant to mine.  32x means they just aren't in the same ballpark.  
 
That 100BTC BBR buy a week or two ago is down almost 50% now.  I'd be more inclined to warn against BBR investment, to friends and family, than to remind them of it.  A liquidity provider should, first and foremost, provide liquidity.  XMR is barely acceptable for tiny positions today on that basis.  But an accumulation of tiny positions will bring it up the ranks.  BBR can't support anything but a lottery ticket at this point.

BTC is the big leagues of crypto.  XMR isn't anywhere near it.  But I am convinced that it can be, and in light of currently available information likely will be in time - barring some dramatic new development, which is not all that unlikely, but can't really be predicted (by me) very well.  BBR, not so much.

Thank you for the lively exchange.




QFT. Beautiful.
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August 15, 2014, 12:36:38 AM
 #3309

But BBR isn't even the next BetaMax, what the hell are you talking about? This is so frustrating!

BBR's changes are only to make it separate from monero and to build a cult around zoidberg. BBR's changes are questionable at best, this is Litecoin all over again, the fact that people can't see this just shows how many idiots are in Crypto!

I get it, I used to be one of those idiots, and I lost a lot for it, but I feel that I am different now, losing hundreds of Bitcoin changes you, makes you research well and apply logic.

BBR's innovations and changes, while untested by time and success, are more than cosmetic.  Removing dust and the resulting bloat is a big step.  Aliases are nice to have available.  Two minute blocks may be a better choice than one minute.  Wild Keccak may prove more ASIC resistant than Cryptonight.  BBR was first with a GUI wallet as well.

BBR's tiny dev team is naturally more nimble and able to quickly implement changes than the larger XMR camp.  But the fate of both are tied to the success or failure of CryptoNote.  We can agree to disagree about which one is best, and still have common ground by regarding them as the top two CN implementations.

There isn't a natural monopoly in cryptocoins because the barriers to entry are trivial.  Most of the time 80/20 Pareto distribution will hold, but when the dominant coin experiences technical/political/economic difficulties like a blockchain fork/Chinese ban/Federal auction, the 2nd Place coin comes to the fore. 

Because we know such Black Swans are inevitable, hloding 'PepsiCoins' like LTC and BBR is a much more rational action than buying lottery tickets that will most likely expire worthless.
Quote

'Why would I invest in MammalCoins, which are too tiny to even be on my radar?  DinoCoins are a safe bet, having ruled the earth for 250 million years.'

>*giant meteor strikes Yucatan, 50 years of volcanic winter ensues*

'Hurr durr, I'd like to trade all my DinoCoins for just one MammalCoin please.'

>'Sorry you should have been more flexible and less risk-averse when you had the chance.  Did you learn nothing about the inevitability of punctuated equilibrium from TriloBytes?'


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Monero
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whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
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"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
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August 15, 2014, 12:41:28 AM
 #3310

Because we know such Black Swans are inevitable, hloding 'PepsiCoins' like LTC and BBR is a much more rational action than buying lottery tickets that will most likely expire worthless.

I think most of your post is nonsense (for example removing mining dust is not only trivial but mathematically provable as trivial) but I agree with this part and I think BBR is a reasonable "second cryptonote" to hold as a hedge.

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August 15, 2014, 01:14:47 AM
 #3311

Because we know such Black Swans are inevitable, hloding 'PepsiCoins' like LTC and BBR is a much more rational action than buying lottery tickets that will most likely expire worthless.

I think most of your post is nonsense (for example removing mining dust is not only trivial but mathematically provable as trivial) but I agree with this part and I think BBR is a reasonable "second cryptonote" to hold as a hedge.

I'm not talking about mining dust.  Of course it's trivial for pools to implement minimum payouts.  Duh! 

If removing (non-mining) transaction dust and the resulting bloat is "trivial" then why is XMR lagging behind BBR in implementing that feature?

My greatest concern for the CryptoNote family as a whole isn't technological but rather social.  Many team members/gadflys are so tetchy and cult-like in their 'my CryptoNote baby is the cutest; your nearly-identical one is ugly' BS, I fear a more mature and convivial community could take the ring-sig based privacy coin ball out of our hands.

Of course making open-source sausage is a nasty process, with many high-strung and high-performing personalities involved.  When you add in the profit motive of Pump&Dump, all hell breaks loose!  But it is in all of our interests to be mutually supportive, and stand united against the pseudo-private ShitCloneHypeScam coins.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
Is Dash a scam?
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August 15, 2014, 01:19:15 AM
 #3312

Thanks for kind words.

......

BBR's innovations and changes, while untested by time and success, are more than cosmetic.  Removing dust and the resulting bloat is a big step.  Aliases are nice to have available.  Two minute blocks may be a better choice than one minute.  Wild Keccak may prove more ASIC resistant than Cryptonight.  BBR was first with a GUI wallet as well.
......

I just want to mention, from my point of view most important, major core changes in BBR is:
1. Advanced transaction identification --> precisely this option allow BBR to have n-times smaller recent blockchain compared to monery/bytecoin (assuming the same transactions amount)
2. Transactions with guaranteed anonymity --> this option solve CryptoNote issue and will allow BBR to have subset of transactions with completely guaranteed unlinkability of transactions.
3. New different approach to PoW to solve problem of slow hash/slow synchronization and improve ASIC protection.


Removing dust, aliases, signed alerts - i could name it "minor changes" (but still it is not cosmetic as monero propagandists try to show it). Even each of this feature have concreate purpose (dust removed since it make smaller bc, alerts needed for fast notification in case of critical problems, aliases - for aliases, and basement for colored coins)

What i want to say - could be different view on solving these problems, different solutions - for example smooth mentioned that they aware about 2. problem and working on some different approach. And if they get better solution i would be happy to use it.

But calling these changes "cosmetic" shows complete misunderstanding of CryptoNote technology and ideas.



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August 15, 2014, 01:25:51 AM
 #3313

Quote
* big secret news that can't be spoken about yet

Are you projecting p&d coin marketing behaviour onto the XMR community, where it doesn't exist?  (Well it does exist, but only among very marginal characters, few in number.)  Occasionally events are planned in advance.  If you want to know more about them, instead of regarding that as a sinister plan, why not just ask the planners?

Actually the news, that can't be revealed yet but is big enough to warrant buying is pretty much verbatim from what I've read.

And What you talk about with wining and dining hedge fund managers & SVP's from Two sigma -- tipping them off about diversifying into a cryptonote fork listed on poloniex, bittrex is nothing more than sexed up pumping. You even though yeah why not add a couple of fintech epicentres, london and shanghai into the mix for dramatic effect. Just needs a few buzzwords.  There's absolutely no reason to have posted what you posted unless you wanted to affect sentiment, or perhaps it was just an excuse to make yourself sound good. I'd wager a bit of both -- the fact is if you posted that in dogecoin thread you would get laughed out and labelled a cheap pumper. If you didn't say write it in such an eloquent way amongst a home crowd you would have also been dismissed as a dreamer.  

There are no "secret news" or "upcoming announcements" like with many alts to drive the price up, besides the "announcement" at the Fireside Chat to attract some viewers. We don't want to manipulate the price with this or benefit in any way from this.
Monero's development process is transparently designed with Missives, Fireside Chats, an active IRC and public repositories.

Actually the news, that can't be revealed yet but is big enough to warrant buying is pretty much verbatim from what I've read.

Maybe provide a link?

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August 15, 2014, 01:28:17 AM
 #3314

If removing (non-mining) transaction dust and the resulting bloat is "trivial" then why is XMR lagging behind BBR in implementing that feature?

Stop being a troll and an idiot please.

Look at the BBR list of features and I quote (with bold emphasis added):

Quote
Removed Dust from block reward to reduce block chain size even more

The change in BBR is removing of mining dust, as I said.

XMR does remove non-mining dust. You obviously don't understand the handling of dust in the cryptonote design. It is somewhat clever.

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August 15, 2014, 02:16:09 AM
 #3315

I think BBR is a reasonable "second cryptonote" to hold as a hedge.
Up to the limits imposed by its market cap, I agree.

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.  Give a man a Poisson distribution and he eats at random times independent of one another, at a constant known rate.
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August 15, 2014, 03:56:30 AM
 #3316

Are any of the new Bytecoin updates being considered for XMR and or BBR?

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August 15, 2014, 05:30:57 AM
 #3317

Are any of the new Bytecoin updates being considered for XMR and or BBR?



From an XMR perspective, not really. The multi-sig implementation is only at mixin 0, so we won't be merging that. We've also started diverging quite heavily from the reference implementation in our development branches, so chances are that there won't be anything we'll be touching there in the future.

Despite where this thread went, I would like to say that our relationship with Crypto_Zoidberg remains genial, and whilst there are some changes he's made that we don't fully agree with, there are are things he's done that we are interested in merging down (and vice versa, based on previous BBR commits). A couple of things require a bit of forethought and modelling on our side prior to implementation, but we don't have anything but respect for CZ.

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August 15, 2014, 10:09:28 AM
Last edit: August 15, 2014, 10:32:39 AM by Este Nuno
 #3318

So in case people just follow this thread and ignore the alt forum in general like I normally do, I thought I'd post this since it's somewhat relevant to the general discussion here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=740112.0

Bytecoin being a scam is not new. But the rest of it starts getting crazy and I'm wondering what's up.

edit: The crypto_zoidberg stuff seems a bit out there, but I don't know. It's pretty clear though that Monero should continue distancing themselves from CN.
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August 15, 2014, 11:21:35 AM
 #3319

Digital hostage negotiation going on between Bter and the 50 million NXT hacker via public block messages.

737607765281301757 is the first one i think.

https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_messages
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August 15, 2014, 12:15:09 PM
Last edit: August 15, 2014, 12:25:38 PM by Este Nuno
 #3320

If you have money in Bter I would advise you get it out while you can. Things are going off the rails. The Bter guy just sent what looks like 100 BTC to the hacker after the hacker said the deal was off.

Considering they lost ~2 million worth of NXT and they'll be obligated to pay people back I'm guessing they might be in some trouble.
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