[XCR] Crypti | Dapps | Sidechains | Dapp Store | OPEN SOURCE | 100% own code | DPoS

[Tobo]

You are strange because your reason for this change is for temporary short term price increase like its a game.
Crypti is a real project not a kids coin.
We in the crypto world are waiting for people who think like you to go away before real adoption can begin.

This change will help XCR in the long term growth. It is not for the short term.

But the real reason you are strange is because the coin supply can never be changed.
That was the whole point of bitcoin. The supply is fixed forever and can not be altered by any one or government.

This is a valid point. The timing is debatable now. XCR is still in the beta stage. It  will be much easier to do it before the implementation of DPoS though.

[Litoshi]

You are strange because your reason for this change is for temporary short term price increase like its a game.
Crypti is a real project not a kids coin.
We in the crypto world are waiting for people who think like you to go away before real adoption can begin.

This change will help XCR in the long term growth. It is not for the short term.

But the real reason you are strange is because the coin supply can never be changed.
That was the whole point of bitcoin. The supply is fixed forever and can not be altered by any one or government.

This is a valid point. The timing is debatable now. XCR is still in the beta stage. It  will be much easier to do it before the implementation of DPoS though.

If the coin supply is to be increased or DECREASED, it would be done at the start of DPOS.  The entire block chain is going to be replaced as the existing one is not compatible with the new system.  The 0.1.9 or earlier nodes will not work.

[stormia]

The .5% fee still bothers me guys. I know the Crypti Team put a lot of thought into everything they do.
I wouldn't want you to change it just because 4 posts in a row say its too high.
Unless there is a really higher level thought process going into the .5% that you don't want to reveal I don't see it working.

Because Crypti is young and has little activity you want to reward delegates with a .5% fee.
Anybody running as a delegate now has to be doing it to support their investment in Crypti.
Its later on when we have high value and activity that a delegate will run for income.
So a high .5% fee now is unnecessary and will only turn off anyone looking into Crypti for the first time.

I was looking at blockchain.info. Look at all those transactions coming every second.
I know you guys said if we ever get to bitcoin level of activity the fee will reduce.
But bitcoin doesn't charge a %. Its a miner fee of .0001.
That means if you send one bitcoin it cost you .01% compared to Crypti's .5%.
If you send 10 bitcoins that same .0001 fee is only .001%.

Nxt from the beginning had 1 Nxt fee and even that was debated as being too high for a long time.
If you really like the flat % thing and have a reason for it then I feel it must be something significantly lower.
It has to be lower than .1%. To me .05% is still high but reasonable and won't turn off newcomers (.01% is better).
And when Crypti has a rise in value and usage, it should be lowered further.

Sending 100,000 Nxt costs 1 Nxt. At 100M supply Crypti's equivalent is sending 10,000 Xcr at .5% costs 50 xcr. Its only 5 xcr at .05%.
We should start at .05% and lower it to .01% when we're at 30-50M market cap.
But at the very very least if you dislike .05% then .1%. I mean .5% just sounds so high.

A 0.5% fee is not too high in my opinion, especially for a coin at this stage. There has to be incentive to run nodes and there has to be incentive to not spam the network. They said it will be adjusted as the value of XCR increases, I don't see any reason why it needs to be done before then. Already significantly better than Paypal which has a 2.9% fee, for example. And it is too early to compare XCR to BTC or even NXT, they are completely different coins at completely different stages of existence.

[GreXX]

But the real reason you are strange is because the coin supply can never be changed.
That was the whole point of bitcoin. The supply is fixed forever and can not be altered by any one or government.

This actually isn't 100% true. In our situation, because we are re-doing the genesis block for the transition to DPOS (because the changes require it), it would be possible to simply apply a 10x or 100x to all balances. Not saying we are doing it, but it IS possible at this point, but probably ONLY at this point.

[MalReynolds]

Somebody please explain to me why spam on the blockchain could not be controlled by a DPoS system instead of a user fee of 0.5%.   In addition to the proposed DPoS launch updated Genesis block, the 101 DPoS Delegates could cooperate and agree among themselves to create a new Genesis block at any time.  When the blockchain hits a certain length, all 101 Delegates could call a short timeout on DPoS forging, calculate a new Genesis block that preserves everybody's balances, and archive the old blockchain on a website where anybody can audit it.  Spam gets archived on a static website;  the Delegates start over with a nice short squeaky clean blockchain, and everybody's accounts and balance data is preserved.  The new short blockchain is deemed valid because a high majority (80%? 90%) of the Delegates cryptographically sign their concurrence into it.

The DPoS sytem (and the advent of super-cheap computing) gives enormous new capabilities that no other cryptocoin has.  We should position ourselves to take full advantage of these capabilities.  DPoS is more than just another method to add blocks to a blockchain.  The Crypti Delegates could one day have enormous control over Money, just as these guys have enormous control over The Internet:

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/feb/28/seven-people-keys-worldwide-internet-security-web

But this only happens if we lay the foundation for it NOW.

If Delegate node costs could be covered by a group of candidates who agreed to self-finance cheap hardware like C1s, and if spam could be controlled by routine new, short Genesis block regeneration and old, long blockchain cloud archive by the 101 Delegates, then why would we need a 0.5% fee?  Under THESE circumstances, could Crypti become the first no-fee cryptocoin?  If so, LET'S DO IT.

...it would be possible to simply apply a 10x or 100x to all balances. Not saying we are doing it, but it IS possible at this point, but probably ONLY at this <0.2.0 DPoS upgrade> point.

And as an aside, think big.  I also think the upcoming Genesis block reboot should bump everybody's account balance by 10,000X.

A trillion unit, no-fee, decentralized, cooperative, routine blockchain-pruning cryptocoin?  Hello, World!  

If this is all possible I would vote to implement it into 0.2.0 before the blockchain switchover and go with DPoS spam control / blockchain pruning / routine genesis block regeneration and 0.0% user fees EVEN IF THIS DELAYED 0.2.0 LAUNCH.

[Litoshi]

Mal,

XCR is now 1200 sats on Polo.  If we multiplied even by 100X, the XCR would be 1 sat.  If we had 10,000X, then XCR would be worth .
1 DOGE

[MalReynolds]

XCR is now 1200 sats on Polo.  If we multiplied even by 100X, the XCR would be 1 sat.  If we had 10,000X, then XCR would be worth 1 DOGE.

Multiplying Crypti balances by 1000X (not your 100X) would take Crypti from 1200 Sat to 1.2 Sat per Crypti and from 100M to 100B total coins.  DOGE is currently at 52 Sat per DOGE with 100B total coins.  Moving to 10,000X would give Crypti a trillion coins worth 0.12 Sat each.  That would be 1000/7 = 142 Crypti on average for everybody on the planet.  Thinking big is about thinking of everybody on the planet holding Crypti.

Plus, micropayments are the future, so they say...

A new Crypti coin divider value is a side issue.  

Any comments on the idea of DPoS routine regeneration of the Genesis block to control spam and enable 0.0% fees?

[Tobo]

A new Crypti coin divider value is a side issue.  Any comments on the idea of DPoS routine regeneration of the Genesis block to control spam and enable 0.0% fees?

On top of tech consideration, we need fees to make the forging worthwhile to attract more people to build a decent and strong delegate pool. 0.1% - 0.5% looks ok to me at this stage.

[Malibusparky]

So 0.2.0 is not just a major update but another reboot? So then total supply change is then technically possible.
If so, then the total supply discussion is not strange but valid and I get the arguments for increased supply.
But first I have to ask what was the reason for 100M in the first place?
I would like to hear the reason for it before I form an opinion on having 1 trillion or 100 B is better.

If Crypti is to be a simple currency then having a large supply makes sense.
But as I am to understand it we are going to be a lot more with custom blockchains and Dapps.
Without that, Crypti is nothing special. So perhaps the lower supply has to do with that.
Cryptis will be required fuel for custom blockchains no?
Like the way XCP are fuel for all their bitcoin 2.0 features and there are only 2.6M XCP.

[Malibusparky]

A new Crypti coin divider value is a side issue.  Any comments on the idea of DPoS routine regeneration of the Genesis block to control spam and enable 0.0% fees?

On top of tech consideration, we need fees to make the forging worthwhile to attract more people to build a decent and strong delegate pool. 0.1% - 0.5% looks ok to me at this stage.

Yes, but the problem is from the point of view of the other 99.99% of the Crypti using population.
Paypal charges 2.9% but they transfer fiat money over their large reasonably trusted central network.
In Crypti like in all crypto coins we do money transfers, address migrations, buying and selling, exchange deposits and withdrawals.
All of which will cost .5% each time.

Example, oops I left my keepass open on my computer and went to get some Thai food.
Come back to find my roommate has 5 friends over and I didnt shut down my computer.
Time to migrate my crypto funds.
500,000 Nxt moved to new account cost 1 Nxt.
1M crypti moved to new account cost 5,000 Xcr.

Thats why you cant compare it to paypal. We do a lot more necessary transactions and much more often with our crypto coins.

[Sharky444]

0.5% is out of the question if Crypti should be used in ANY business environment.

0.1% only viable if you make a huge marketing compaign with an easy to implement payment system (Mobile Apps, Merchant UI etc).

Otherwise anything over 0.01% will kill the coin instantly. Almost all transfer activity will stop.

[Litoshi]

XCR is now 1200 sats on Polo.  If we multiplied even by 100X, the XCR would be 1 sat.  If we had 10,000X, then XCR would be worth 1 DOGE.

Multiplying Crypti balances by 1000X (not your 100X) would take Crypti from 1200 Sat to 1.2 Sat per Crypti and from 100M to 100B total coins.  DOGE is currently at 52 Sat per DOGE with 100B total coins.  Moving to 10,000X would give Crypti a trillion coins worth 0.12 Sat each.  That would be 1000/7 = 142 Crypti on average for everybody on the planet.  Thinking big is about thinking of everybody on the planet holding Crypti.

Plus, micropayments are the future, so they say...

A new Crypti coin divider value is a side issue.  

Any comments on the idea of DPoS routine regeneration of the Genesis block to control spam and enable 0.0% fees?

1 sat is as low as you can go for BTC trading... most times . once a coin gets to even 5 sats they move it to the LTC or DOGE trading board.

XCR is an 8 decimal coin, just like BTC, so we have 800million Cryptoshis of we needed so many units.

Even if XCR was worth $1000 USD, a Cryptoshi would be worth 0.00001 cents.  

[Litoshi]

The 100 million XCR quantity was decided buy the launch team a year ago.  I was not part of the foundation then. 

[Wulfcastle]

Crypti Fee Discussion

So I've noticed that there's a discussion regarding the Crypti Fee which is currently set at 0.5%. I'm sure as most of you can see this is quite a major talking point, so I've decided to create a channel for discussion over at CryptiChat : http://cryptichat.me

The channel name is #crypti-dpos (For discussion regarding the fee and other topics in the run up to the DPOS launch). All you have to do to join the discussion is simply "Connect" and then click #crypti-dpos on the sidebar.

I urge you all to come join in the discussion on CryptiChat : http://cryptichat.me, I'm sure it'll be a much more user friendly option and will hopefully provide for more constructive discussion (you can chat in real-time) then the usual post system on BitcoinTalk.

With CryptiChat we can have the foundation members as well as the whole community discuss Crypti's fees in real-time. So I urge you all to come join in the discussion

[GreXX]

0.5% is out of the question if Crypti should be used in ANY business environment.

0.1% only viable if you make a huge marketing compaign with an easy to implement payment system (Mobile Apps, Merchant UI etc).

Otherwise anything over 0.01% will kill the coin instantly. Almost all transfer activity will stop.

The plans that we have encompass much more than Mobile Apps and a Merchant UI. Crypti will have all the capabilities of most major players and will have them probably by the end of this year. Not only that, but in a way we think makes much more sense and on a better network.

We are internally discussing and have an open vote right now on whether or not to increase supply and also whether or not to change the % fee. We are leaning towards possibly changing both but it is pretty split right now. I would say the Board is about 50/50 on both subjects right now. We have our weekly meeting tomorrow to discuss pros / cons of both issues. So any additional input before then would be appreciated.

As far as the original 100M determination, I don't even recall what the justification was but it wasn't a revolutionary, history based, or statistic backed reason. It was just an internal debate because a number had to be chosen and that is where we ended up.

When looking at how DApps will work and the other planned projects for the core, many on the Board feel like the added supply might actually be worthwhile. I am still somewhat undecided myself and still debating internally on what I think the right direction is. I don't see much of a downside to increasing the supply, but I'm trying to balance that with the "if it ain't broke" in me.

Either way, this is a good discussion and I am glad you are all providing conversation and input. It helps us consider it from all angles.

[Sharky444]

Yeah, added supply makes sense (probably x10 or x 20), but 0.5% transfer fee is ridiculous.

[stupididiot]

is there any way to learn algorithms? so far nothing good going on for me. newbie as you can see. i want to learn how to do some of those, to compile an algorithm to make a wallet or something, or even better, make some coins, purely apprenticeship wise

[50cent_rapper]

What a crazy idea to change total coins number? Why? 

[Tobo]

What a crazy idea to change total coins number? Why? 

Again, NEM proves that there is a big benefit for the larger coin supply. The market cap becomes bigger and the cost per coin becomes smaller.

For instance, if XCR increases the coins to the 10x,the price will likely only shrink to 1/5 because of some buyers' psychological reasons. Therefore, the XCR market cap will double up. If XCR coins can increase 100x, the market cap will be ever higher without doing anything else. It is how the top ranked coins are doing on the current market.

The thing is that if coins supply increases to 10x, everyone's coins will increase to 10x and your coins will still keep the same proportion of the total coins as before. For instance, if you have 100k coins now, if increasing to 10x, your coins will be 1 millions after the increase. No one will lose anything.

This change will help XCR in the long term growth. It is not for the short term.

XCR is still in the beta stage. The only window left for the change is before or at the implementation of DPoS.
 
 

[50cent_rapper]

Crypti is a long term project and from this point of view I think that the best thing that the team can do - is to keep the blockchain, not playing with supply, rollbacks, blacklisting wallets and so on. Like in the first BTER hack, when NXT community voted not to touch the blockchain.

I understand that you want to make money quickly (chaning one variable - get 50% RoI  ). That's totally unrealistic.