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dyask
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October 17, 2014, 06:00:10 AM |
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I don't know about everyone, but deeneendo posts tend to be a little toxic. I think in general GAW allowed people to back out of the buyback, but they messed up the codes and some people got back a lot more primes than they had paid for. Some of these people took advantage of that and sold these ill gotten primes cheaply on the market and withdrew the BTC from ZenMiner. This whole thing has created a real mess and I'm sure pushed some people over that edge. I don't think these will be lasting bans, but everyone probably needs to cool down a little. |
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coinGeek
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October 17, 2014, 06:36:49 AM |
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Strange though that there are power outlets in view with nothing plugged in, and if you zoom in the fans don't seem to be turning. So, maybe not too many BTC per day like that. Edit: Lot's of network cables though (or is that power?) so they are on the way to being set up. That or a lot of effort just to fake a shot and keep the merchandise dust free... Edit2: No, the power inputs are on the side with nothing plugged in yet. Impressive but quiet so far. Subtitle on the picture: Just waiting for the truckload of power supplies. The driver won't unload until we pay up...  |
Software Developer and Coin Geek
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suchmoon (OP)
Legendary
 Offline
Activity: 3738
Merit: 8999
https://bpip.org
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October 17, 2014, 07:02:28 AM |
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I don't know about everyone, but deeneendo posts tend to be a little toxic. I think in general GAW allowed people to back out of the buyback, but they messed up the codes and some people got back a lot more primes than they had paid for. Some of these people took advantage of that and sold these ill gotten primes cheaply on the market and withdrew the BTC from ZenMiner. This whole thing has created a real mess and I'm sure pushed some people over that edge.
I don't think these will be lasting bans, but everyone probably needs to cool down a little.
Emotions run high at HT at the best of times, but this mess is 100% on GAW IMHO. They messed up the codes, mishandled the communication (exploit?), punished - even if temporarily - the unsuspecting marketplace buyers, got into legal threats for no good reason, even admitted to charging credit cards without proper authorization. There were so many opportunities to control the narrative of this story and for some inexplicable reason they failed to do that. Like for example this rumor on HT that a reseller told a buyer to keep the "gift". If that really happened GAW could throw the reseller under the bus, no one would shed a tear about it. If it didn't happen, bring forward the real story. Why not? And then there is this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=537912.msg9229612#msg9229612This customer was inaccurately charged for the product they received. So, they were then charged the difference with the credit card they have on file. We have logs that show the product you received we not the product you purchased.
So you can either:
A. Pay for the product you received
B. Your welcome return the BTC you took out by selling the product, and we will happily refund you. Think about that for a moment. The customer was ACCURATELY charged for what he/she purchased. Was given a product that was more valuable. Decided to cash out. GAW charged the credit card on file. I mean the customer might be wrong to do that without contacting GAW first (depending on whether the "gift" rumor was real or not), but two wrongs can't make it right. Let's say I purchase a cheap Cromebook on Amazon and some overworked minimum wage warehouse employee ships me a MacBook. Would Amazon (a) charge my credit card for the MacBook and fire the employee, (b) send me a threatening e-mail asking to pay up in 8 hours and fire the employee, or (c) ask me politely to return the MacBook, possibly throw in a generous gift card, and fire the employee. I can understand the distress, with 200+ hashlets at 20+ "free" MH/s each, the potential loss to GAW was in six figures. But how does swinging the ban hammer around forums help with that? |
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suchmoon (OP)
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3738
Merit: 8999
https://bpip.org
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October 17, 2014, 07:11:38 AM |
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Strange though that there are power outlets in view with nothing plugged in, and if you zoom in the fans don't seem to be turning. So, maybe not too many BTC per day like that. Edit: Lot's of network cables though (or is that power?) so they are on the way to being set up. That or a lot of effort just to fake a shot and keep the merchandise dust free... Edit2: No, the power inputs are on the side with nothing plugged in yet. Impressive but quiet so far. Subtitle on the picture: Just waiting for the truckload of power supplies. The driver won't unload until we pay up... They must have a very sweet deal with Bitmain. S3s purchased in July/August could ROI (just barely), S3s purchased in October - only if they got them at 50% off and have really cheap power. |
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dyask
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October 17, 2014, 07:26:56 AM |
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Strange though that there are power outlets in view with nothing plugged in, and if you zoom in the fans don't seem to be turning. So, maybe not too many BTC per day like that. Edit: Lot's of network cables though (or is that power?) so they are on the way to being set up. That or a lot of effort just to fake a shot and keep the merchandise dust free... Edit2: No, the power inputs are on the side with nothing plugged in yet. Impressive but quiet so far. The picture was just labeled "Lots and lots of miners!", it didn't say anything about them being already powered on. I amazed at how much effort goes into picking things apart. |
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Flep182
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 938
Merit: 1007
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October 17, 2014, 07:36:10 AM |
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Strange though that there are power outlets in view with nothing plugged in, and if you zoom in the fans don't seem to be turning. So, maybe not too many BTC per day like that. Edit: Lot's of network cables though (or is that power?) so they are on the way to being set up. That or a lot of effort just to fake a shot and keep the merchandise dust free... Edit2: No, the power inputs are on the side with nothing plugged in yet. Impressive but quiet so far. Subtitle on the picture: Just waiting for the truckload of power supplies. The driver won't unload until we pay up... They must have a very sweet deal with Bitmain. S3s purchased in July/August could ROI (just barely), S3s purchased in October - only if they got them at 50% off and have really cheap power. Don't forget that they've been paid already for the hashes and that they probably got a very big bulkorder. |
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rammy2k2
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1974
Merit: 1003
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October 17, 2014, 08:24:34 AM |
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i withdrew my balance with no problems, all good with my hashlets so far ; im in pure profit  |
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Oldminer
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1001
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October 17, 2014, 09:44:31 AM |
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lol..another one bites the dust... Just create another account. These guys are amateurs and wont notice. But really why would you? The forum is only good for news and u dont need an a/c for that. |
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EvilPanda
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October 17, 2014, 02:48:45 PM |
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i withdrew my balance with no problems, all good with my hashlets so far ; im in pure profit Congratulations, same here, but you don't have to tell them. They know GAW is profitable, that's why they are whining here instead of simply selling their cloud shares and mining at home. I guess it's how things are done in the "whining industry". You buy shares, complain and complain, count the profits and buy more, so you can start to complain again. |
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alienesb
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October 17, 2014, 03:08:11 PM |
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i withdrew my balance with no problems, all good with my hashlets so far ; im in pure profit Congratulations, same here, but you don't have to tell them. They know GAW is profitable, that's why they are whining here instead of simply selling their cloud shares and mining at home. I guess it's how things are done in the "whining industry". You buy shares, complain and complain, count the profits and buy more, so you can start to complain again. No you whine and complain when a company lies, cheats and steals constantly. The subterfuge by GAW is astounding and you all buy into it because you need the suckers to buy into it or your gravy train stops. I have quite a bit invested too but I'm not a lemming like you, I ask questions and complain. Shit gets addressed and fixed because of squeaky wheels like us not you ass-kissers that want to have Josh's baby. |
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spiceminer15
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October 17, 2014, 03:08:58 PM |
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None of the lights in the s3 are on
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tins
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October 17, 2014, 03:31:25 PM |
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i withdrew my balance with no problems, all good with my hashlets so far ; im in pure profit Congratulations, same here, but you don't have to tell them. They know GAW is profitable, that's why they are whining here instead of simply selling their cloud shares and mining at home. I guess it's how things are done in the "whining industry". You buy shares, complain and complain, count the profits and buy more, so you can start to complain again. Yup, there has been some downtime to address the bugs, but ultimately, I've been able to withdraw all of my mined coins. If GAW wants to continue their advertising campaign, here's an idea: Instead of current system, switch payout to- Sr. Members and up receive 2 Zen Hashlets per month and below rank receives 1 Zen Hashlet. That way GAW is paying out the campaign to people that actually appreciate and use their product. Plus, price point is very similar at current BTC price. |
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EvilPanda
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October 17, 2014, 03:37:34 PM |
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i withdrew my balance with no problems, all good with my hashlets so far ; im in pure profit Congratulations, same here, but you don't have to tell them. They know GAW is profitable, that's why they are whining here instead of simply selling their cloud shares and mining at home. I guess it's how things are done in the "whining industry". You buy shares, complain and complain, count the profits and buy more, so you can start to complain again. No you whine and complain when a company lies, cheats and steals constantly. The subterfuge by GAW is astounding and you all buy into it because you need the suckers to buy into it or your gravy train stops. I have quite a bit invested too but I'm not a lemming like you, I ask questions and complain. Shit gets addressed and fixed because of squeaky wheels like us not you ass-kissers that want to have Josh's baby. If they "constantly cheat" then how come you still have "quite a bit invested"? Your logic must be flawed if you're feeling cheated but still take your daily profits instead of getting out. If I'm a lemming then you're a greedy whiner. |
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MOB
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October 17, 2014, 04:16:16 PM |
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i withdrew my balance with no problems, all good with my hashlets so far ; im in pure profit Congratulations, same here, but you don't have to tell them. They know GAW is profitable, that's why they are whining here instead of simply selling their cloud shares and mining at home. I guess it's how things are done in the "whining industry". You buy shares, complain and complain, count the profits and buy more, so you can start to complain again. No you whine and complain when a company lies, cheats and steals constantly. The subterfuge by GAW is astounding and you all buy into it because you need the suckers to buy into it or your gravy train stops. I have quite a bit invested too but I'm not a lemming like you, I ask questions and complain. Shit gets addressed and fixed because of squeaky wheels like us not you ass-kissers that want to have Josh's baby. If they "constantly cheat" then how come you still have "quite a bit invested"? Your logic must be flawed if you're feeling cheated but still take your daily profits instead of getting out. If I'm a lemming then you're a greedy whiner. Here I go, feeding a little red panda troll. First, let's look at the claims in your own signature as a paid GAW employee. 1. "No pool fees." Does one need to charge a 2% pool fee when you can instead charge as much as 45% "upkeep" fees? No transparency, so no idea how much of that is profit for GAW. 2. "Instant Activation." Generally true, but given the 1MH vs 25MH debacle and the regular wait times of 6+ days for an acknowledgement that you even sent in a support ticket, that is a claim they really cannot backup. They clearly are aware of this inability to deliver, so they no longer guarantee the instant claim or your order is free. 3. "Never Obsolete." Compared to launch, Primes have already decreased in profitability by a staggering 40%. Multihash hashlet is already in the negative, so Josh has fixed it at making a .0001 instead. 4. "Always Profitable." So far, GAW is profitable for the early early adopters. Anyone who bought above $20 is not in the black, so making claims about the future seems unwise. Anyway, such squabbles over misleading advertisements and your question ethics with your signature campaign are beside the point. What I would be most concerned with is GAW's ability to even stay in business for the long-term. GAW is selling a financial instrument without regulation, disclosure, or transparency. That constitutes fraud here in the US. Even if no one loses any money because of GAW (yet anyway) that is still illegal. Are you just hoping the SEC and Marshalls don't notice? Seems like a poor investment plan. You will receive no warning of a RAID with time to "get out" as you panic. All GAW products will simply cease to exist when the plug is pulled on Zenpool. Better hope you don't have BTC there either! |
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alienesb
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October 17, 2014, 04:16:35 PM |
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i withdrew my balance with no problems, all good with my hashlets so far ; im in pure profit Congratulations, same here, but you don't have to tell them. They know GAW is profitable, that's why they are whining here instead of simply selling their cloud shares and mining at home. I guess it's how things are done in the "whining industry". You buy shares, complain and complain, count the profits and buy more, so you can start to complain again. No you whine and complain when a company lies, cheats and steals constantly. The subterfuge by GAW is astounding and you all buy into it because you need the suckers to buy into it or your gravy train stops. I have quite a bit invested too but I'm not a lemming like you, I ask questions and complain. Shit gets addressed and fixed because of squeaky wheels like us not you ass-kissers that want to have Josh's baby. If they "constantly cheat" then how come you still have "quite a bit invested"? Your logic must be flawed if you're feeling cheated but still take your daily profits instead of getting out. If I'm a lemming then you're a greedy whiner. Why is it greed to expect to get what you paid for? Why is it greed to expect the product you paid for doesn't change on a whim? You are a sycophant that does nothing but kiss the almighty GAW's ass and have an "explanation" for everything and question nothing. That's not normal. |
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EvilPanda
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October 17, 2014, 04:35:47 PM |
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i withdrew my balance with no problems, all good with my hashlets so far ; im in pure profit Congratulations, same here, but you don't have to tell them. They know GAW is profitable, that's why they are whining here instead of simply selling their cloud shares and mining at home. I guess it's how things are done in the "whining industry". You buy shares, complain and complain, count the profits and buy more, so you can start to complain again. No you whine and complain when a company lies, cheats and steals constantly. The subterfuge by GAW is astounding and you all buy into it because you need the suckers to buy into it or your gravy train stops. I have quite a bit invested too but I'm not a lemming like you, I ask questions and complain. Shit gets addressed and fixed because of squeaky wheels like us not you ass-kissers that want to have Josh's baby. If they "constantly cheat" then how come you still have "quite a bit invested"? Your logic must be flawed if you're feeling cheated but still take your daily profits instead of getting out. If I'm a lemming then you're a greedy whiner. Here I go, feeding a little red panda troll. First, let's look at the claims in your own signature as a paid GAW employee. 1. "No pool fees." Does one need to charge a 2% pool fee when you can instead charge as much as 45% "upkeep" fees? No transparency, so no idea how much of that is profit for GAW. 2. "Instant Activation." Generally true, but given the 1MH vs 25MH debacle and the regular wait times of 6+ days for an acknowledgement that you even sent in a support ticket, that is a claim they really cannot backup. They clearly are aware of this inability to deliver, so they no longer guarantee the instant claim or your order is free. 3. "Never Obsolete." Compared to launch, Primes have already decreased in profitability by a staggering 40%. Multihash hashlet is already in the negative, so Josh has fixed it at making a .0001 instead. 4. "Always Profitable." So far, GAW is profitable for the early early adopters. Anyone who bought above $20 is not in the black, so making claims about the future seems unwise. Oh, so I'm a troll because I have something positive to say about GAW? First, I'm not a GAW employee. 1. My signature says no pool fees and there are none, show me a clud mining company that doesn't require a fee to cover the electricity and maintenance cost. There are no such companies? I guess we'll have to end here then. 2. Instant activation has nothing to do with support tickets. 3. My signature was made AT LAUNCH. I'm sure the decreasing profits had something to do with the recent downtime. You can always wait and see if the profits keep going down or simply sell your shares now. There are better and worse days just like with market prices. 4. Early adopters? You mean people who both 2 months ago? What is the difference between an early and late adopter? A month? 6 weeks? LOL |
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eightcylinders
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October 17, 2014, 04:50:32 PM |
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GAW and its resellers/employees appear not to like questions about the legality of what they are doing vis a vis hashlets being a security/highly regulated financial instrument that does not comply with U.S. laws. Okay, so I will stop that line of questions.
However, the REASONS for such regulations are really important in order to prevent fraud. That is not to say that GAW is committing fraud, but rather GAW has put itself in a position with hashlets where, under the right set of circumstances (see below and my prior posts) it may find it is unable to provide sufficient BTC to satisfy withdrawal demands .. and in that case what GAW does could easily transition into fraud.
1) Why GAW could find itself without sufficient BTC to satsify withdrawal demands. GAW has admitted that its payouts from various "real" pools (solo hashlets) do not represent actual mining going on in those pools. Putting aside all of my other concerns (about where payouts come from in that case), the fundamental risk is that whatever investment activity GAW is doing to get revenue for payouts, that actual investment activity could under some circumstances have returns lower than the pool that serves as index resulting in a shortage between promised payouts based on pool performance and actual BTC available based on whatever investment activity GAW actually engaged in. In the case of zenpool it is even worse - GAW has admitted that it invests those funds in lending to other miners, alt coint IPOS, and basically anything GAW wants to do. What is the limit on what GAW can invest in with the zenpool money? Can zenpool invest in stocks? Gambling? Purchasing other companies? Are zenpool profits net of GAW expenses? Does the fancy private jet count as an expense to offset profits in zenpool? Can no one at GAW understand why these are critical disclosure issues?!
2) How a shortage can lead to fraud. As soon as there is a substantial shortage situation (between the index pool performance versus GAW returns from its actual investment activity), GAW must either (a) report abnormally and incorrect low returns for the pool that serves as index (which would be too obvious for public pools like multipool but could be hidden for private pools like zenpool), (b) limit withdrawals until an offsetting positive differential occurs (e.g., until GAW's actual investment activity does better than the index pool), (c) use proceeds from the sale
of hashlets to fund the loss, or (d) use GAW's own profits (separate from the sale of hashlets) to fund the loss. It is important to note that (a) - (c) result in fraud. (d) is the only legal option, but it is by far the least attractive if you are GAW. Since hashlets are a black box, the temptation to use (a) - (c) to solve the problem is very strong. That is NOT to say that is what is happening, but only that it is very tempting to move into fraud from the position that GAW is in. THAT is why we have securities laws, to prevent EXACTLY this kind of temptation from becoming reality.
Consider an analogous situation:
A stockbroker calls you and offers you a unit in an investment pool that he says will return 100% of the return of the SP500 index. He also guarantees that you will not lose your investment since he claims to be hedged. But he offers you no further details.
In actuality, he may:
1) lend the money to traders at a high interest rate that is currently greater than the SP500 return gambling that the SP500 returns won't exceed the interest rate he is getting
2) invest some money in the SP500 as a hedge
3) go to vegas and gamble
4) buy a business that has great cashflow, currently enough to payouff all of the investors, on the theory that the cash flow will always be there
5) spend lots of money marketing his pool so that there will always be more and more investors and therefore more and more available cash in the pool
Etc.
If the above seems problematic to you, then what GAW is doing should be sounding alarm bells. There is absolutely no difference.
And to the employees and resellers of GAW: I am not saying that Josh is a bad guy. I really believe he has (or at least had when he started out) the best intent in terms of turning bitcoin and altcoin into a consumer commodity. However, you are all at risk when this falls apart. I cannot raise this issue anymore than I have without getting banned. But if you value your peace of mind and fortunes and happiness, you will be raising these isssues with GAW behind the scene. It is very serious and the fact that the system has not yet fallen apart does not guarantee it won't; in fact, it is very likely it will given enough time.
Later.
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My BTC Addres: 1PMEJCY6ofqmnAdYbdQqToZ7MNSAz35w7v =>Buy the world's first hardware wallet. Safer than paper and easier to use than smartphones. If you use Bitcoin you need this: Buy Trezor!! |
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suchmoon (OP)
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 3738
Merit: 8999
https://bpip.org
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October 17, 2014, 05:57:57 PM |
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In case you're wondering what's up with withdrawals: https://hashtalk.org/topic/12275/ability-to-withdraw-btcjmordica
ZenCloud Specialist
GAW Staff
Industry Innovator
Ability to withdraw BTC
We found some extra ZenHashlets that were illegitimately activated and therefore need to be reconciled. This has caused us to have to turn off the ability to withdraw funds until this is reconciled so we can quickly go after the users that have been selling these on the market.
Thank you for your patience. |
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