Re: Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[DebitMe]

 I guess the 6k+ I spent out of my own pocket to gather information at my own expense, I might as well go home.

You mean your own pockets, that are lined with the money from all the sales you took? Or do you do this for charity, because you just love to help people 

Are we really going to insult the only person fighting for us. I would bet that there wouldn't even be a compensation package if it wasn't for bobsag.  Look at his prices and BA's prices.  Do you see a big difference?  I am sure he makes a small amount on each order, but I doubt it is enough that he can throw 6k around willy nilly .  Bobsag has been straight and forward with everything, and even puts his business on the line as he is subject to US regulations, whereas BA is not.

Now I hope as much as anyone else that he is able to talk some sense into these guys, but insulting him is no way to do it.  He is our best hope of making our money back on these machines, and I for one will continue to support him, his work, and his business.

Thank you bobsag, please do not get discouraged and please continue to give us updates and fight for us.  You have proven to me that you are a good business man, and I respect that, and for that I support you as all a man has over the internet is his reputation and you sir have certainly earned a good one in my book.

Thank you.

Would you mind putting a list together for me/david/BA, something clear and concise I can bring to them today/tomorrow, rather than me slinging questions as them at random and missing out on some important ones I may miss.

Yes I can, if anyone would like any questions asked please PM them to me and I will screen them and get them over to bobsag.  Thanks.

[DebitMe]

Here s 2 unanswered questions from ecointalk

4/ If I buy a PSU from the BA store the shipping is $70,does this assume that the PSU will be installed in the comp unit,so in effect it is combined shipping for both PSU&comp unit? If not then this would seem excessive as I only paid $67 for an entire X-3.

 

5/ I opted for the 5 day free hosting,if I buy a PSU now will BA install the PSU into the comp unit and host it as well for 5 days? Then ship everything together?

Gotcha, thanks

[DebitMe]

 I guess the 6k+ I spent out of my own pocket to gather information at my own expense, I might as well go home.

You mean your own pockets, that are lined with the money from all the sales you took? Or do you do this for charity, because you just love to help people 

Are we really going to insult the only person fighting for us. I would bet that there wouldn't even be a compensation package if it wasn't for bobsag.  Look at his prices and BA's prices.  Do you see a big difference?  I am sure he makes a small amount on each order, but I doubt it is enough that he can throw 6k around willy nilly .  Bobsag has been straight and forward with everything, and even puts his business on the line as he is subject to US regulations, whereas BA is not.

Now I hope as much as anyone else that he is able to talk some sense into these guys, but insulting him is no way to do it.  He is our best hope of making our money back on these machines, and I for one will continue to support him, his work, and his business.

Thank you bobsag, please do not get discouraged and please continue to give us updates and fight for us.  You have proven to me that you are a good business man, and I respect that, and for that I support you as all a man has over the internet is his reputation and you sir have certainly earned a good one in my book.

That might be true, but not everyone is being compensated. The customers with only 1 x1 are not being compensated. Sorry but a coupon towards your next purchase is not compensation its more money for Black Arrow.

I agree with you, and am even on your side.  Trying to at least get them transferable so people like me can pay you for yours so you at least get something.  Just remember, Bobsag didn't set that, BA did.  My ultimate goal, and what would make me happy right now, is getting shipped 2X our current orders, and getting a 25%+ coupon off of future orders.  Complete miners too, with power supply included.  All we can do is keep on them about it.  Other companies are paving the way, lets hope BA follows.

[DebitMe]

 I guess the 6k+ I spent out of my own pocket to gather information at my own expense, I might as well go home.

You mean your own pockets, that are lined with the money from all the sales you took? Or do you do this for charity, because you just love to help people 

Are we really going to insult the only person fighting for us. I would bet that there wouldn't even be a compensation package if it wasn't for bobsag.  Look at his prices and BA's prices.  Do you see a big difference?  I am sure he makes a small amount on each order, but I doubt it is enough that he can throw 6k around willy nilly .  Bobsag has been straight and forward with everything, and even puts his business on the line as he is subject to US regulations, whereas BA is not.

Now I hope as much as anyone else that he is able to talk some sense into these guys, but insulting him is no way to do it.  He is our best hope of making our money back on these machines, and I for one will continue to support him, his work, and his business.

Thank you bobsag, please do not get discouraged and please continue to give us updates and fight for us.  You have proven to me that you are a good business man, and I respect that, and for that I support you as all a man has over the internet is his reputation and you sir have certainly earned a good one in my book.

++++1

I am not happy having been ripped off by AMT, BFL and now BA who I thought was a really good manufacturer but turned out to be just like the rest.

But minersource is not the problem here.  If you take account of fully loaded costs, I doubt minersource is going to make anything off of these X-3s, at least not on pre-orders considering all of the extra effort they are going to have to put in (sourcing power supplies, repeat travel, time spent in negotiations with BA, responses to irate customers, etc.).   I am not happy with the compensation either, but I would rather have minersource in there trying to improve it (and get orders shipped asap) vs trying to deal with BA myself.

We will see how this all plays out.  As it stands, I would never buy from BA again, but I would buy (a different product) from minersource. 

I would like to hear the updates from minersource and put our support behind minersource, rather than undercutting them.

Don't forget that minersource increased all shipping to overnight and are including free Ethernet cables with X-3 orders.  They know the importance of having everything there as soon as possible and to have it ready and hashing for their customers.

[DebitMe]

 I guess the 6k+ I spent out of my own pocket to gather information at my own expense, I might as well go home.

You mean your own pockets, that are lined with the money from all the sales you took? Or do you do this for charity, because you just love to help people 

Are we really going to insult the only person fighting for us. I would bet that there wouldn't even be a compensation package if it wasn't for bobsag.  Look at his prices and BA's prices.  Do you see a big difference?  I am sure he makes a small amount on each order, but I doubt it is enough that he can throw 6k around willy nilly .  Bobsag has been straight and forward with everything, and even puts his business on the line as he is subject to US regulations, whereas BA is not.

Now I hope as much as anyone else that he is able to talk some sense into these guys, but insulting him is no way to do it.  He is our best hope of making our money back on these machines, and I for one will continue to support him, his work, and his business.

Thank you bobsag, please do not get discouraged and please continue to give us updates and fight for us.  You have proven to me that you are a good business man, and I respect that, and for that I support you as all a man has over the internet is his reputation and you sir have certainly earned a good one in my book.

That might be true, but not everyone is being compensated. The customers with only 1 x1 are not being compensated. Sorry but a coupon towards your next purchase is not compensation its more money for Black Arrow.

I agree with you, and am even on your side.  Trying to at least get them transferable so people like me can pay you for yours so you at least get something.  Just remember, Bobsag didn't set that, BA did.  My ultimate goal, and what would make me happy right now, is getting shipped 2X our current orders, and getting a 25%+ coupon off of future orders.  Complete miners too, with power supply included.  All we can do is keep on them about it.  Other companies are paving the way, lets hope BA follows.

We won't be limiting the 50% value one to accounts, you can do what you wish with it, however it will be a one time use coupon.

At this time all Batch 1 orders should be listed under the minersource.net accounts (if you purchased from us) Orders are numbered XXXXA or XXXXB you can calculate the amount of units you will be receiving by adding up units in those orders. As for refunds they will be removed from shipping over the next day or two but will still display on the account until the refund is issued.

Will minersource be handling the 25% discount on future orders?  Will those also ship with our orders and will those only be usable at your store or BA's store or both?  And finally, can they be transferable?

THanks Thomas for your help.

Also, last call for questions, got quite a list together I will be sending to Bobsag soon.  THanks

[goozman96]

We have received the SMT assembled boards.
 
We are now proud to announce that Black Arrow has the most power efficient Bitcoin ASIC on the market today.
 
A single dual chip board is hashing with absolutely no errors at 1Ghz while using 150Watt at the wall, including the PSU loss.
 
We have better efficiency than 0.75Watts/ghash at the wall.

[goozman96]

They don't mention what the hashrate is for that configuration though..

[goozman96]

Can we get a video or picture of the chips hashing?

[goozman96]

Can we get a video or picture of the chips hashing?

Theres a picture of them hashing on my previous post, but this china internet is only allowing me to a picture every 10 min or so

Thanks, I just saw them. I'll keep an eye on that post in case you update it again.

[notbatman]

Bitcoin Difficulty:   8,853,416,309
Estimated Next Difficulty:   9,931,375,269 (+12.18%)
Adjust time:   After 1893 Blocks, About 12.6 days

[DebitMe]

Well congrats on chip performance and power usage.  Sounds like this is starting to come together after all.
I will refrain from asking more question about compensation and what not until bobsag posts the answers to the questions I gave him.

But again, congrats on this development, its been a long road, but it seems the end is near.

EDIT:  Crud, misread the earlier post.  So 1 chip is not achieving ~200 GH/s, thought I would be getting twice the hashing power in an X-1, hopefully the single chip will still be able to achieve the ~.75 W/GH mark.

[goozman96]

Thanks for the update, but no ETAs mentioned? Will X-3s start shipping before the end of this week?

[notbatman]

The clock ticketh on, and yet no refund from minersource, still.

As was stated, the information is nice, we can see it slowly coming together and materializing, it seems closer now than ever, but now the time frame is lining up and people are realizing they won't be seeing this until, drum roll:

First week in June!

I guess being a month off the second date isn't that bad compared to what has happened with others.

The cost of that power supply shipping though, ouch, i really hope they come up with a solution so their customers aren't screwed into making another 110 dollar purchase from them..


I want my refund though!

I highly doubt that early June is the last stop for the delay train. When the power cost of running all those x-3s is greater than the revenue they generate I'm sure they'll be shipping them ASAP.

[goozman96]

Thanks for the update, but no ETAs mentioned? Will X-3s start shipping before the end of this week?

The lack of a response makes me safely assume shipping will not start this week.

[DebitMe]

Whew that was a mouthful, nicely said though.  BA, I think the above sums up quite nicely the sentiment around here.  Are you continuing to evaluate the compensation program?  Also are you still capable of price matching when units start to ship?  Personally, I believe everyone should just get double their order, with no more money having to be spent, I also feel that if this doesn't happen it may get pretty messy in terms of not having return customers, logistical nightmares of coordinating half finished units to customers, and many other problems that will potentially arise.

[goozman96]

I think it's fair to assume that shipping will not start this week. It's been asked of them multiple times and it hasn't received an answer. And based on past performance, if they aren't eager to give an answer for something, it's probably because the answer isn't good.


Unless of course bobsag3 or BA wish to mention otherwise... Now is your chance....

[DebitMe]

The $ per GH can only be calculated based on current market conditions, aka what they are currently advertised/sold for...so...

According to BA's website an

X-1
100 GH/s for $373 ------>  $3.73 $/GH

X-3
2000 GH/s for 5949.15 ------> $2.97 $/GH

We are currently being given 50% on top of that so...  (Keep in mind a new order today would not get that extra 50%)

X-1
150 GH/s for $373 ------> $2.49 $/GH

X-3
3000 GH/s for $5949.15 ------> $1.98 $/GH

What I paid so... (This will probably be different than what you paid)

I bought 8 X-1's (with compensation 1200 GH/s) for $2,919.60 or -------> $2.43 $/GH

COMPETITION (Only miners currently out)

Antminer
S1 (.468 * 450 = 210.60 per unit) + (Assume $60 for a PSU)
180 GH/s for $270.60 ------> $1.50 $/GH

S2 (Assume $400 coupon as everyone has one)
1000 GH/s for $1989 ------> $1.989 $/GH

More to Come (If I feel like doing others, feel free to add on if you want)

Moral of the story, BA is over $2/GH with the current compensation model (assuming you have an even number of units and you get the PSU for free. (To be honest I forgot to add in the extra cost for the PSU and now I dont want to go back and do it, may do it later)), the S1 is under $2/GH even adding in a $60 PSU.

EDIT: I understand this does not take into account efficiency, and only shows what Bobsag has posted pictures of which is 2 chips running at 200 GH/s

EDIT2:  Looking for where exactly BA first talked about the matching program.  If you have the page number please let me know.  Thanks

[DebitMe]

The $ per GH can only be calculated based on current market conditions, aka what they are currently advertised/sold for...so...

According to BA's website an

X-1
100 GH/s for $373 ------>  $3.73 $/GH

X-3
2000 GH/s for 5949.15 ------> $2.97 $/GH

We are currently being given 50% on top of that so...  (Keep in mind a new order today would not get that extra 50%)

X-1
150 GH/s for $373 ------> $2.49 $/GH

X-3
3000 GH/s for $5949.15 ------> $1.98 $/GH

What I paid so... (This will probably be different than what you paid)

I bought 8 X-1's (with compensation 1200 GH/s) for $2,919.60 or -------> $2.43 $/GH

COMPETITION (Only miners currently out)

Antminer
S1 (.468 * 450 = 210.60 per unit) + (Assume $60 for a PSU)
180 GH/s for $270.60 ------> $1.50 $/GH

S2 (Assume $400 coupon as everyone has one)
1000 GH/s for $1989 ------> $1.989 $/GH

More to Come (If I feel like doing others, feel free to add on if you want)

Moral of the story, BA is over $2/GH with the current compensation model (assuming you have an even number of units and you get the PSU for free. (To be honest I forgot to add in the extra cost for the PSU and now I dont want to go back and do it, may do it later)), the S1 is under $2/GH even adding in a $60 PSU.

EDIT: I understand this does not take into account efficiency, and only shows what Bobsag has posted pictures of which is 2 chips running at 200 GH/s

This is assuming 100gh which is what was tested at ss corner. I assume they can at least reach 120gh at tt corner. (which I believe was already tested before)

Yea but even their thread says advertised from $2.97 GH/s.  So I do not see a reason to adjust this until they are as confident in that as they seem to be at 100 GH/s

[DebitMe]

The $ per GH can only be calculated based on current market conditions, aka what they are currently advertised/sold for...so...

According to BA's website an

X-1
100 GH/s for $373 ------>  $3.73 $/GH

X-3
2000 GH/s for 5949.15 ------> $2.97 $/GH

We are currently being given 50% on top of that so...  (Keep in mind a new order today would not get that extra 50%)

X-1
150 GH/s for $373 ------> $2.49 $/GH

X-3
3000 GH/s for $5949.15 ------> $1.98 $/GH

What I paid so... (This will probably be different than what you paid)

I bought 8 X-1's (with compensation 1200 GH/s) for $2,919.60 or -------> $2.43 $/GH

COMPETITION (Only miners currently out)

Antminer
S1 (.468 * 450 = 210.60 per unit) + (Assume $60 for a PSU)
180 GH/s for $270.60 ------> $1.50 $/GH

S2 (Assume $400 coupon as everyone has one)
1000 GH/s for $1989 ------> $1.989 $/GH

More to Come (If I feel like doing others, feel free to add on if you want)

Moral of the story, BA is over $2/GH with the current compensation model (assuming you have an even number of units and you get the PSU for free. (To be honest I forgot to add in the extra cost for the PSU and now I dont want to go back and do it, may do it later)), the S1 is under $2/GH even adding in a $60 PSU.

EDIT: I understand this does not take into account efficiency, and only shows what Bobsag has posted pictures of which is 2 chips running at 200 GH/s

This is assuming 100gh which is what was tested at ss corner. I assume they can at least reach 120gh at tt corner. (which I believe was already tested before)

Yea but even their thread says advertised from $2.97 GH/s.  So I do not see a reason to adjust this until they are as confident in that as they seem to be at 100 GH/s

Also keep in mind that that's advertised speed versus "what it can overclock to".  

If you want to play that game, as Jimmothy seems to want you to, then you should adjust the S1 numbers because most can easily hit around 200 GH (various overclock values from 375 - 400 Mhz).  And those are proven, long since shipped, in hand, with many overclocked at that speed since the beginning of this year.   So, if the X-1 comparison is at 120GH, use 200GH for S1.  That's fair.

Very True, thanks for pointing that out.

[notbatman]

Anybody feel like crying?

Put the time machine back to February and watch the tears hit your laptop keys:

http://retrocalc.net/

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