Re: Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[DebitMe]

yah I don't think so.  you'd have to be drunk as a monkey on a rum boat to think they could successfully accomplish this within any  reasonable time or best the competition in getting there when it does happen.

I bolded the part that accurately must describe every member of BA.

[Pentax]

BA vs Intel!



battle royal for chip world supremacy.


In other news:

Bill Gates/Microsoft vs a 6th grade gamer in a race to develop the next gen OS.


Odds are about the same in both cases.




It really is insanely funny in a way.  Not thousands of dollars worth of funny, but they can knock 10 bucks off what they owe me for the sheer comedy of them claiming to have a successful track record and claiming they'll ship their 14nm chips in the same relative timeframe as Intel.

it's seriously hysterical.  WTF are these guys smoking?  Whatever it is, I want some.  It's Friday, I'm looking to get my buzz on and there is no doubt in my mind that these guys have the best reality-bending shit in town.

[DebitMe]

Hm. That's kind of like... odd... isn't it?

Taking a break from reading BFL bashing, wondering how other chip vendors are doing.

Welcome to the thread!  Lots of bashing going around here as BA is the closest competitor to BFL at the moment.  Feel free to leave words of hatred at your leisure, and stay around for, "What I would do to anyone of BA's staff if I ever met them anonymous."  Lots of round table discussions at that meeting.  Kick off your shoes and join in the fun!

[DebitMe]

My goodness, this Stuart from Logic Ethos is cracking me up.  Look at this statement

Disasters aside, BA did come good on the Minion, and they learned some important lessons in the process.  A good reason to keep your Prosperos when you get them.  It's a lot easier to manufacture and ship a lot of upgrade boards, than manufacture new machines.  An easy way for BA to get some of their investment back quickly.

Can this guy get anymore thick?  Certainly he has to work for BA because any other re seller dare not speak their name anymore.  My favorite is where he said its a lot easier to manufacture and ship a lot of upgrade boards, than manufacture new machines.  BULL SHIT!!!!  So your saying that designing a new, 14NM CHIP AT THAT, and get a working board is easier than designing the case and plugging in a fan???!!!!?  What an idiot statement.  And yes, I called you an idiot because that is the stupidest crap I have ever heard!  I would be willing to bet that this, "next generation machine" will not have a case, or LCD, or any other bells and whistles, and you know why!!!!  Because they don't fucking matter and should be easier than shit to get together!  There is no way that getting a fully functioning chip and board is easier than getting nothing, which is the other components of a good working machine.  And their investment back quickly!  Do you know how much it costs to tape out a 28nm process, much less a 14nm node?

I don't know much about chip manufacturing, other than basic principles.  My eyes glazed over when I got the talk from BA engineers.  Back in my days of electronics, it was single layer PCBs which looked like they had been hand etched, and resistors you could see with the naked eye.  I had a resistor colour chart on the wall.  Now you need a microscope, to even see some of these components.

Obviously not!  BA doesn't have the money for another tape out of the current design, much less a smaller dimension that isn't even out for consumers yet!  Why else would they solicit investors for their future projects?  Unless their end goal is to hedge risk, in which case, they are already expecting their project to fail, which really isn't that surprising.

Let's make something very clear: You, all customers combined, covered less than 40% of the expenses.
 
We, Black Arrow, have covered most part of this project. We only have 1.5T active mining (0.5 x X3, and 2 x X1.5). They are only to test if the design is stable and to fix software issues. We have always put our customers first!
 
Your expense? Really? It is our expense! You have paid us until February 28. That was the business plan and based on that we've priced your miner. Since then we are paying out of our pockets various mistakes made by us but mostly other companies. We have not given up and we got your miner out and it works faster than we've promised. If we were to give up you would have received back exactly what MtGox's clients got: nothing.
 
And what would you like us to do now? Get our PCB designers to assemble your miners and doing unqualified work? Or should we fire them after working 18 hours per day to fix a mistake that was not Black Arrow's? They made your miner a reality!
 
You said that you want cheaper hashing! We have listened and offered 14.4T in chips instead of 2T in miners.
 
You complained that you cannot do anything with the chips. We gave you the design: Here is a USB version without case, without copper pipes. It cannot get cheaper than this.

Check out this gem they posted back on their forums.  Still not taking any responsibility are ya BA?  All your customers faults and other companies.  BULL SHIT you scammy pieces of shit.  Grow up and understand that your word is worth less than BFL Josh's at this point.  Your entire forum as well as this one is an ode to your death and destruction.  I can't even find one customer going back multiple pages on either that is happy with the product/service provided by BA.  Why do you continue to try to create projects?  Your involvement in the crypto world is dead, no one wants you around and no one wants your attempt at over engineered mining devices.  And now, we covered less than 40% of costs!  Then why can't you refund shit?  You don't even want your own product, so after using it for months, you force it upon your customers instead of giving refunds.  Your lower than low and I hope your executives continue to be too depressed to read what their customers have to say about them, it will make it all more confusing for them when they inevitably die.

[Pentax]

From Bitcointalk.

BlackArrow is throwing a hissy fit.
http://ecointalk.net/topic/1270-free-pcb-design-for-minions/page-2
_______________________________________________________________________________ ________________________
blackarrow, on 29 Aug 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:
Let's make something very clear: You, all customers combined, covered less than 40% of the expenses.

We, Black Arrow, have covered most part of this project. We only have 1.5T active mining (0.5 x X3, and 2 x X1.5). They are only to test if the design is stable and to fix software issues. We have always put our customers first!

Your expense? Really? It is our expense! You have paid us until February 28. That was the business plan and based on that we've priced your miner. Since then we are paying out of our pockets various mistakes made by us but mostly other companies. We have not given up and we got your miner out and it works faster than we've promised. If we were to give up you would have received back exactly what MtGox's clients got: nothing.

And what would you like us to do now? Get our PCB designers to assemble your miners and doing unqualified work? Or should we fire them after working 18 hours per day to fix a mistake that was not Black Arrow's? They made your miner a reality!

You said that you want cheaper hashing! We have listened and offered 14.4T in chips instead of 2T in miners.

You complained that you cannot do anything with the chips. We gave you the design: Here is a USB version without case, without copper pipes. It cannot get cheaper than this.
_______________________________________________________________________________ ____________________



no-one is asking anything other than what was promised to them and, based on those promises, what they paid for.  and based on the word of BA and YOU, the refunds they asked for and were promised.


On this thread and on ecointalk YOU promised refunds, YOU promised price matching, YOU promised on time delivery.

Here is your statement on refunds from ecointalk.  You know, from the thread on refunds that Black Arrow has now deleted from it's forum:
__________________________________________________________________________
blackarrow
Advanced Member

Moderators

148 posts


Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:34 AM
Dear Customer,
 
USD refunds will be issued in May.
_____________________________________________________________________________

There was no 'maybe' on that ^^^.  A very clear statement that refunds would be issued in May.  Just in case you are not aware it is now nearly September and they have not happened.

There was no 'maybe' on price matching.  I can post your words on those again if you need reminding of them.

It seems to me that YOU BlackArrow have lied to the customers over and over again.


Your company has taken hundreds of thousands of dollars if not more from people, refusing them their refunds, are delivering product that is no longer of any use after they sent you thousands of dollars,  and you are now angry that they are angry.

You are insane, or blind, or both.

[Pentax]

Why the F is everybody complaining on this forum and nobody taking action? File a report for fraud at the HK police, refuse the delivery etc!!

some of us are.

I'd agree that if people want to see something done they should take action.

up to this point I think people are waiting to see some evidence that something would work, and then jump onboard.  hoping someone else would take the risk, do the work, and make it simple.

nothing is going to be simple here.  as a group our voices are more likely to be heard, so waiting for someone else hurts your chances of anything getting done.

As the returns/value on these diminish day by day, so does the risk of doing something right along with it. 

People have to make their own decisions, of course, but I don't see the point in doing nothing.

what can they do if you take formal action?  deliver this piece of shit?  knock you to the back of the line?  not deliver at all?  Go bankrupt? who cares, who cares, who cares, and who cares as far as I'm concerned.
 

[DebitMe]

Why the F is everybody complaining on this forum and nobody taking action? File a report for fraud at the HK police, refuse the delivery etc!!

Way to jump in with accusation that no one is doing anything and only complaining.  Perhaps start by asking what is being done or what has been done instead of lumping everyone together.

For your information, I ordered through their re seller and met with legal council multiple times.  Fortunately, I was able to come to a mutually beneficial deal with MS and avoided having to pursue anything in the court system.  But I have also filed with various agencies (not against MS) to hopefully have someone take a look at BA more substantially, government body wise that is.

Now, my goal is continually remind BA and hopefully shed light to future potential customers about who BA really is, in order to deter them from ordering with BA.  And don't think for a second that this board is as far as it goes.  I continually find ways to spread their reputation so that as many people as possible can see who BA is and what they are about, mainly screwing over their customers.

[DebitMe]

Why the F is everybody complaining on this forum and nobody taking action? File a report for fraud at the HK police, refuse the delivery etc!!

Way to jump in with accusation that no one is doing anything and only complaining.  Perhaps start by asking what is being done or what has been done instead of lumping everyone together.

For your information, I ordered through their re seller and met with legal council multiple times.  Fortunately, I was able to come to a mutually beneficial deal with MS and avoided having to pursue anything in the court system.  But I have also filed with various agencies (not against MS) to hopefully have someone take a look at BA more substantially, government body wise that is.

Now, my goal is continually remind BA and hopefully shed light to future potential customers about who BA really is, in order to deter them from ordering with BA.  And don't think for a second that this board is as far as it goes.  I continually find ways to spread their reputation so that as many people as possible can see who BA is and what they are about, mainly screwing over their customers.

So basically you are confirming my claim: you did nothing - instead of attacking my post, take some legal action. Do you really think complaining, and 'reminding' BA that they are idiots and scammers will have any effect? The only thing they will feel is legal action. Based on their new posts on their site, they are not taking any complaints and 'reminders' seriously.

What on earth do you mean, "I did nothing"?  I very clearly explained what I did, and look what happened.  I got my money back, and I bought 5 S3's with a month of hosting!  I have counselled many people, both on this forum as well as on ecointalk, about what they can/should do.  According to my counsel, I do not have any types of claim against BA at this time, but deterring future customers, AKA cash flow for them, is what i can continue to do.

Also, I could give a shit about what bothers them.  They obviously take time to come in here and delete my posts and that gives me some satisfaction, knowing that I am a small thorn in their asses.

It seems we are on the same team here, but you are going about it wrong by telling everyone that what they have done is incorrect up to this point.  So, based on what you have been saying, it is safe to assume you have retained a legal team and are ready to hit them?  Please share with us where you are at with that?

[greenlion]

The only real impediment to filing a complaint is that BA is constantly feeding us amazing statements to include in the claim. That last hissy fit is definitely something that Hing Kong authorities need to see.

[Pentax]

http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/steamowner-valve-taken-to-court-by-accc-over-alleged-violations/story-fnkgdftz-1227041421564


"ACCC chairman Rod Sims said: “The Australian Consumer Law applies to any business providing goods or services within Australia. Valve may be an American-based company with no physical presence in Australia, but it is carrying on business in Australia by selling to Australian consumers, who are protected by Australian Consumer Law.
“It is a breach of the Australian Consumer Law for businesses to state that they do not give refunds under any circumstances, including for gifts and during sales. Under the Australian Consumer Law, consumers can insist on a refund or replacement at their option if a product has a major fault.
“The consumer guarantees provided under the Australian Consumer Law cannot be excluded, restricted or modified.”

[greenlion]

I'm sure the Hong Kong CC will be very interested in this manner of dealing with the most simple customer inquiry possible:

[Pentax]

deleting posts again.  no problem. that's what copy/paste is for.

maybe you could add that to the functionality of the junk you are shipping to consumers.

A reply of yours, quoted below, was deleted by the starter of a self-moderated topic. There are no rules of self-moderation, so this deletion cannot be appealed. Do not continue posting in this topic if the topic-starter has requested that you leave.

You can create a new topic if you are unsatisfied with this one. If the topic-starter is scamming, post about it in Scam Accusations.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/steamowner-valve-taken-to-court-by-accc-over-alleged-violations/story-fnkgdftz-1227041421564


"ACCC chairman Rod Sims said: “The Australian Consumer Law applies to any business providing goods or services within Australia. Valve may be an American-based company with no physical presence in Australia, but it is carrying on business in Australia by selling to Australian consumers, who are protected by Australian Consumer Law.
“It is a breach of the Australian Consumer Law for businesses to state that they do not give refunds under any circumstances, including for gifts and during sales. Under the Australian Consumer Law, consumers can insist on a refund or replacement at their option if a product has a major fault.
“The consumer guarantees provided under the Australian Consumer Law cannot be excluded, restricted or modified.”

[Pentax]

Why the F is everybody complaining on this forum and nobody taking action? File a report for fraud at the HK police, refuse the delivery etc!!

some of us are.

I'd agree that if people want to see something done they should take action.

up to this point I think people are waiting to see some evidence that something would work, and then jump onboard.  hoping someone else would take the risk, do the work, and make it simple.

nothing is going to be simple here.  as a group our voices are more likely to be heard, so waiting for someone else hurts your chances of anything getting done.

As the returns/value on these diminish day by day, so does the risk of doing something right along with it.  

People have to make their own decisions, of course, but I don't see the point in doing nothing.

what can they do if you take formal action?  deliver this piece of shit?  knock you to the back of the line?  not deliver at all?  Go bankrupt? who cares, who cares, who cares, and who cares as far as I'm concerned.
 

[Pentax]

From Bitcointalk.

BlackArrow is throwing a hissy fit.
http://ecointalk.net/topic/1270-free-pcb-design-for-minions/page-2
_______________________________________________________________________________ ________________________
blackarrow, on 29 Aug 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:
Let's make something very clear: You, all customers combined, covered less than 40% of the expenses.

We, Black Arrow, have covered most part of this project. We only have 1.5T active mining (0.5 x X3, and 2 x X1.5). They are only to test if the design is stable and to fix software issues. We have always put our customers first!

Your expense? Really? It is our expense! You have paid us until February 28. That was the business plan and based on that we've priced your miner. Since then we are paying out of our pockets various mistakes made by us but mostly other companies. We have not given up and we got your miner out and it works faster than we've promised. If we were to give up you would have received back exactly what MtGox's clients got: nothing.

And what would you like us to do now? Get our PCB designers to assemble your miners and doing unqualified work? Or should we fire them after working 18 hours per day to fix a mistake that was not Black Arrow's? They made your miner a reality!

You said that you want cheaper hashing! We have listened and offered 14.4T in chips instead of 2T in miners.

You complained that you cannot do anything with the chips. We gave you the design: Here is a USB version without case, without copper pipes. It cannot get cheaper than this.
_______________________________________________________________________________ ____________________



no-one is asking anything other than what was promised to them and, based on those promises, what they paid for.  and based on the word of BA and YOU, the refunds they asked for and were promised.


On this thread and on ecointalk YOU promised refunds, YOU promised price matching, YOU promised on time delivery.

Here is your statement on refunds from ecointalk.  You know, from the thread on refunds that Black Arrow has now deleted from it's forum:
__________________________________________________________________________
blackarrow
Advanced Member

Moderators

148 posts


Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:34 AM
Dear Customer,
 
USD refunds will be issued in May.
_____________________________________________________________________________

There was no 'maybe' on that ^^^.  A very clear statement that refunds would be issued in May.  Just in case you are not aware it is now nearly September and they have not happened.

There was no 'maybe' on price matching.  I can post your words on those again if you need reminding of them.

It seems to me that YOU BlackArrow have lied to the customers over and over again.


Your company has taken hundreds of thousands of dollars if not more from people, refusing them their refunds, are delivering product that is no longer of any use after they sent you thousands of dollars,  and you are now angry that they are angry.

You are insane, or blind, or both.

[Pentax]

Wow, just wow, these sorry excuses for human beings won't just die will they?  I will be the first to call Bull Shit on a 14nm node process ASIC chip used for SHA-256 hashing!  There is simply no way.  How could BA do that when successful Bitcoin ASIC companies can't yet, and for that matter, any other chip producer such as Intel!  They are just lying to get more money.

Although notice that with their Scrypt ASIC chip and now this one, they are no longer taking preorders and instead are looking for funding from individuals or even other ASIC manufacturers!  There is no way they have the money to do another tape out.  They are scrounging for scraps and I doubt anyone will throw them any given their history of being complete fuck ups.

Justification for having no more money...
Why would you seek partners or investors if you could tape it out yourselves?  Unless you aren't confident in your own product and don't want to sustain a huge loss yourselves.

Either way, this company has proven incompetence time and time again.  In fact, incompetence is putting it too nicely.  They have lied, scammed, and cheated their way through this entire production run of miners, which barely function according to roughly half the people who received them.

It will be a beautiful day when the authorities catch these fuckers and karma gets its sweet sweet revenge.

Intel just released a 14nm, I think.

http://chipdesignmag.com/sld/blog/2014/08/29/deeper-dive-intels-14nm-august-29-2014/

But that's Intel.   And they've just recently accomplished it.  first devices with it to come out towards the end of this year.  devices for OEMs in the first half of next year.

and BA is going to ship in the first half of next year also?  


yah I don't think so.  you'd have to be drunk as a monkey on a rum boat to think they could successfully accomplish this within any  reasonable time or best the competition in getting there when it does happen.

[Pentax]

BA vs Intel!



battle royal for chip world supremacy.


In other news:

Bill Gates/Microsoft vs a 6th grade gamer in a race to develop the next gen OS.


Odds are about the same in both cases.




It really is insanely funny in a way.  Not thousands of dollars worth of funny, but they can knock 10 bucks off what they owe me for the sheer comedy of them claiming to have a successful track record and claiming they'll ship their 14nm chips in the same relative timeframe as Intel.

it's seriously hysterical.  WTF are these guys smoking?  Whatever it is, I want some.  It's Friday, I'm looking to get my buzz on and there is no doubt in my mind that these guys have the best reality-bending shit in town.

[Pentax]

But wait, there's more!

http://www.blackarrowsoftware.com/store/14nm-bitcoin-asic-announcement.html

So ... do we get some free units of these for our trouble??  We paid "helped" to pay for this development after all.....

Haha what a fuckin' joke!

"Black Arrow Ltd has already a proven track record in successfully manufacture Bitcoin mining hardware at extremely competitive prices using shorter full lifecycle than their competition without compromising the top quality required the highly-competitive niche market."

Are these dicks on the same planet as us? Successfully manufacture? Extremely competitive prices? Just piss off and go bankrupt already you criminals

proven track record?   of what, exactly?  their miners are now 6 months late because they had one issue after the next, they're no longer price competitive at time of delivery and have a snowball's chance in hell of ROI'ing.


what they have proven is that they will tell people anything to get their money and then break those promises when it suits them.

remember this one?

If you are guaranteeing prices then what's the point of preorders?  Basically the people preordering now are giving you a free loan because come february everyone gets the same price anyways.  The only benefit of preordering now is if the buyer thinks that you won't have to lower prices and the current price will end up being less then market prices for similar devices at the time of shipping.

Customers who pre-order and pay now have 25% discount. Our promise is that we will ensure that customers who preorder now will always get a better deal than customers who order later.

At the same time we promise that our prices will be below market price at the time we ship.

This means that customers that preorder now will have considerable lower market prices by the time that we ship which puts them in advantage towards anybody else.

Unless Bitcoin mining stops because it becomes unprofitable for everybody else in February, our customers WILL make profit.

or this?

After a whole year of this ASIC preordering phenomenon/fiasco somehow it's starting to feel like the companies will promise you anything and everything just to get your money.  Even if it makes no sense.  What's the point of them getting capital now if they guarantee to drop the prices to whatever the market price will be in the future and have to return most of that capital?  I don't mind gambling but when the gamble is just some vague guarantee promise that isn't rooted in reality that's just one more hurdle to overcome besides the fact of sending non refundable to btc to some outfit in china and hoping for the best on a proposition that's many months away.

Everybody until now sold you hardware that they knew that you're going to loose money because 1 month later they announced something faster at a better price.
We are guaranteeing that this won't happen with us: If we drop the price you'll get even faster hardware, keeping you in front of everybody else.

or this?

I'd like to make sure I understand what you are guaranteeing.  You are saying that if I preorder now I am guaranteed a price 25% below market price.  How will market price be defined?  

Yes, you are guaranteed to get a price 25% below the market price ($/ghash) at the time of shipment.
And yes, we will keep our prices below every other company.

Bottom line is, whoever trusts us now, we promise that will help them to mine profitably after February as well. If you keep supporting other companies who have ripped you off until now, you'll barely get your ROI back.

[Pentax]

When BFL starts to look good relative to Black Arrow you know they've really rung the bell of failure.

How could any company be this bad.

It's like they try to fail.

Or they're mining with the X-3's and that's why they're not going out, which seems more likely to me.

[Pentax]

How 'splitting' it does makes sense is that by shipping the bulk of orders now the liability is greatly reduced, reducing the likelihood that people will organize to chase them down for comp unit that's pretty much worth next to nothing anyhow a few months from now.

I think that's exactly right, getting convinced to accept shipment without compensation (i.e. their price-matching promise prior to any orders even being placed) takes you out of the refund game entirely.

I think it's worth re-iterating, Black Arrow is obligated to refund your order if you request it. A pre-order is a pre-order, not a "I'm-going-to-do-whatever-I-want-with-your-money-go-fuck-yourself"-order.

yep, I think this promise of compensation is an outright lie.  I think price matching was an outright lie all along.  I think their telling people they would refund their money was an outright lie all along.  They can easily disprove any of those opinions by simply delivering on these things, although I'm not holding my breath.

think of a promise they've actually kept to the aggregate group of customers that would cost them a dime.  I can't think of one.  not a single one.  

I can tick off several major ones broken, not to mention shipping dates, facility capacity, etc., etc., etc., but I cannot think of one they've kept to their customers en masse.  

are we supposed to believe that it's just been a string of unlikely events totally beyond their control or is it more likely that this was a strategy that utilized bad faith dealings to string people along?  I'll let people decide that for themselves, I guess.

[Pentax]

Still, the sooner those Scrypt miners get taped out and built, the sooner we can get our compensation, eh BA?

I'll eat my hat if there is any compensation at all ever.

The only reason for them to provide compensation (which is really just another word for their price matching promise back in the fall) is to prevent you from putting in for a refund then simply re-buying the same stuff at massive discount out of stock once they get their act together, because if there are ever going to be any new orders beyond batch 1 and 2 moving forward, they would have to be at least half price or lower compared to what batch 1/2 paid originally.

So basically, there is no reason for them to do any compensation because of two EXTREMELY false beliefs that they're trying to strongarm us into accepting:

1) That they're not obligated to issue refunds
2) That their product is of a higher quality than any competitor's, therefore it would be an apples-to-oranges situation to try to price match against competing hardware

In light of the facts and their overt position on the issue, the most likely outcome is going to be taking their sweet time milking batch 1 and 2 over the next few months, and then responding "fuck you, we shipped you your order, go away". They're not getting any repeat business from anybody whatsoever in batch 1/2, so why on earth wouldn't they re-purpose their supposed cheaper compensation design to new orders, possibly even under a different company name. If you see a "Minersource"-brand 1 TH/s miner listing for like $1500, you'll know what it is!

I agree completely.  Look at their past behavior and how they've dangled other similar things out there and then pulled them back when they were no longer of use.

1.  Price matching.  Promised it all along, told people to wait until time of shipment for further details.  Shipment began and they ditched it.  Not partially, based on their silly this vs. that component excuse.  Totally threw it over the side.  As soon as it was no longer of use as a carrot to keep people quiet and from litigating in droves they dumped it.

2.  Refunds.  Same thing happened here.  We'll get to it, we'll get to it.  Please be patient.  Everyone's busy building miners (but not too busy to develop a scrypt chip).   Please don't organize and sue the hell out of us.  Then what?  Shipping started and people in the refund queue that had been told they would be getting refunds started getting their miners.

In terms of compensation, it makes no sense that I can see to not ship the comp with the orders.  Based on their penny pinching ways to this point does it make sense that they'd incur further shipping cost to fire off packages around the planet at some future point?  To me, it does not.

How 'splitting' it does makes sense is that by shipping the bulk of orders now the liability is greatly reduced, reducing the likelihood that people will organize to chase them down for comp unit that's pretty much worth next to nothing anyhow a few months from now.

IMO, all of these things have been a fraud from minute 1.  It looks to me like they've strung people along with promises that were false from the outset and designed to do nothing but mollify people and keep mass litigation at bay.  

Compensation is no different, IMO.  Based on their actions on the above I do not think they intend to ship comp and I doubt they ever did.