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Author Topic: KanoPool since 2014 🐈 - PPLNS and Solo 0.5% fee - Worldwide - 2436 blocks  (Read 5350319 times)
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innerchaos
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August 02, 2015, 07:47:26 PM
Last edit: August 02, 2015, 08:21:11 PM by innerchaos
 #4241

31 minutes since the network has solved a block... is that a long time or is it just me

Meh... they are all slow today
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August 02, 2015, 09:27:16 PM
Last edit: August 02, 2015, 09:46:06 PM by PPOC
 #4242

31 minutes since the network has solved a block... is that a long time or is it just me

Meh... they are all slow today

2 days ago I saw 57 minutes since the network solved a block, it was a period where about 70Ph fell off for a while, since the diff is based on network hash and say a large pool has issues and the network looses 70ph, blocks can get quite long.

I see that as an issue if say China lost all internet in a massive attack or natural disaster. Since more then 60% of all the hash is in China, we would be in deep dodo with blocks going days and maybe weeks.

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August 02, 2015, 09:32:46 PM
 #4243

31 minutes since the network has solved a block... is that a long time or is it just me

Meh... they are all slow today

2 days ago I saw 57 minutes since the network solved a block, it was a period where about 70Ph fell off for a while, since the diff is based on network hash, then saw a large pool has issues and network looses 70ph, blocks can get quite long. I see that as an issue if say China lost all internet in a massive attack or natural disaster. Since more then 60% of all the hash is in China, we would be in deep dodo with blocks going days!

Maybe China should lose internet more often.  Roll Eyes

They already have too much hash and could do with less. A big portion of the hash is there and it kinda feel like centralization to me.


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August 02, 2015, 09:51:52 PM
 #4244

31 minutes since the network has solved a block... is that a long time or is it just me

Meh... they are all slow today

2 days ago I saw 57 minutes since the network solved a block, it was a period where about 70Ph fell off for a while, since the diff is based on network hash, then saw a large pool has issues and network looses 70ph, blocks can get quite long. I see that as an issue if say China lost all internet in a massive attack or natural disaster. Since more then 60% of all the hash is in China, we would be in deep dodo with blocks going days!

Maybe China should lose internet more often.  Roll Eyes

They already have too much hash and could do with less. A big portion of the hash is there and it kinda feel like centralization to me.

I agree, less hash from China. But with the diff at 52+ it would take months if not years for the network diff if reduce enough to get 10 min block if 60-70 percent of the hash went away. The remaining miners would have to fork the chain to get back to 10m blocks in a reasonable time frame. My 2 cents

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August 02, 2015, 10:34:40 PM
 #4245

31 minutes since the network has solved a block... is that a long time or is it just me

Meh... they are all slow today

2 days ago I saw 57 minutes since the network solved a block, it was a period where about 70Ph fell off for a while, since the diff is based on network hash, then saw a large pool has issues and network looses 70ph, blocks can get quite long. I see that as an issue if say China lost all internet in a massive attack or natural disaster. Since more then 60% of all the hash is in China, we would be in deep dodo with blocks going days!

Maybe China should lose internet more often.  Roll Eyes

They already have too much hash and could do with less. A big portion of the hash is there and it kinda feel like centralization to me.

I agree, less hash from China. But with the diff at 52+ it would take months if not years for the network diff if reduce enough to get 10 min block if 60-70 percent of the hash went away. The remaining miners would have to fork the chain to get back to 10m blocks in a reasonable time frame. My 2 cents
No, it would take to the next 2016 block re-adjustment to go down appropriately, at most two.  If we lost 60% of the hash rate today, next week the diff would adjust downward significantly and the following 2016 block adjustment would finish it off.
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August 02, 2015, 10:49:31 PM
 #4246

31 minutes since the network has solved a block... is that a long time or is it just me

Meh... they are all slow today

2 days ago I saw 57 minutes since the network solved a block, it was a period where about 70Ph fell off for a while, since the diff is based on network hash, then saw a large pool has issues and network looses 70ph, blocks can get quite long. I see that as an issue if say China lost all internet in a massive attack or natural disaster. Since more then 60% of all the hash is in China, we would be in deep dodo with blocks going days!

Maybe China should lose internet more often.  Roll Eyes

They already have too much hash and could do with less. A big portion of the hash is there and it kinda feel like centralization to me.

I agree, less hash from China. But with the diff at 52+ it would take months if not years for the network diff if reduce enough to get 10 min block if 60-70 percent of the hash went away. The remaining miners would have to fork the chain to get back to 10m blocks in a reasonable time frame. My 2 cents
No, it would take to the next 2016 block re-adjustment to go down appropriately, at most two.  If we lost 60% of the hash rate today, next week the diff would adjust downward significantly and the following 2016 block adjustment would finish it off.

Correct, but if we lost that much hash shortly after an adjustment it would take a LONG time to get 2000 or so blocks. Say we are at 400ph now, just adjusted and then network went to 160ph it would be months. We lost 70ph for a short time a couple days ago and I saw a almost 1 hour block and others in 30min plus. At that time network went to 320ph. Now imagine 160Ph. I'm sure someone can do the math at 160ph at current diff and 2000 blocks to mint before next adjustment.

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August 02, 2015, 10:55:49 PM
 #4247

31 minutes since the network has solved a block... is that a long time or is it just me

Meh... they are all slow today

2 days ago I saw 57 minutes since the network solved a block, it was a period where about 70Ph fell off for a while, since the diff is based on network hash, then saw a large pool has issues and network looses 70ph, blocks can get quite long. I see that as an issue if say China lost all internet in a massive attack or natural disaster. Since more then 60% of all the hash is in China, we would be in deep dodo with blocks going days!

Maybe China should lose internet more often.  Roll Eyes

They already have too much hash and could do with less. A big portion of the hash is there and it kinda feel like centralization to me.

I agree, less hash from China. But with the diff at 52+ it would take months if not years for the network diff if reduce enough to get 10 min block if 60-70 percent of the hash went away. The remaining miners would have to fork the chain to get back to 10m blocks in a reasonable time frame. My 2 cents
No, it would take to the next 2016 block re-adjustment to go down appropriately, at most two.  If we lost 60% of the hash rate today, next week the diff would adjust downward significantly and the following 2016 block adjustment would finish it off.

Correct, but if we lost that much hash shortly after an adjustment it would take a LONG time to get 2000 or so blocks. Say we are at 400ph now, just adjusted and then network went to 160ph it would be months. We lost 70ph for a short time a couple days ago and I saw a almost 1 hour block and others in 30min plus. At that time network went to 320ph. Now imagine 160Ph. I'm sure someone can do the math at 160ph at current diff and 2000 blocks to mint before next adjustment.
Ahh, ok I see your point now... Misunderstood the angle you were taking with it. 

Would be roughly 2.5x longer, right? If it takes about 12 days now, it would take 30 days to get to the next adjustment in that case.
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August 02, 2015, 11:26:14 PM
 #4248

31 minutes since the network has solved a block... is that a long time or is it just me

Meh... they are all slow today

2 days ago I saw 57 minutes since the network solved a block, it was a period where about 70Ph fell off for a while, since the diff is based on network hash, then saw a large pool has issues and network looses 70ph, blocks can get quite long. I see that as an issue if say China lost all internet in a massive attack or natural disaster. Since more then 60% of all the hash is in China, we would be in deep dodo with blocks going days!

Maybe China should lose internet more often.  Roll Eyes

They already have too much hash and could do with less. A big portion of the hash is there and it kinda feel like centralization to me.

I agree, less hash from China. But with the diff at 52+ it would take months if not years for the network diff if reduce enough to get 10 min block if 60-70 percent of the hash went away. The remaining miners would have to fork the chain to get back to 10m blocks in a reasonable time frame. My 2 cents
No, it would take to the next 2016 block re-adjustment to go down appropriately, at most two.  If we lost 60% of the hash rate today, next week the diff would adjust downward significantly and the following 2016 block adjustment would finish it off.

Correct, but if we lost that much hash shortly after an adjustment it would take a LONG time to get 2000 or so blocks. Say we are at 400ph now, just adjusted and then network went to 160ph it would be months. We lost 70ph for a short time a couple days ago and I saw a almost 1 hour block and others in 30min plus. At that time network went to 320ph. Now imagine 160Ph. I'm sure someone can do the math at 160ph at current diff and 2000 blocks to mint before next adjustment.
Ahh, ok I see your point now... Misunderstood the angle you were taking with it. 

Would be roughly 2.5x longer, right? If it takes about 12 days now, it would take 30 days to get to the next adjustment in that case.

Here is another viewpoint on the same topic.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3fg0jw/could_a_cartel_of_pool_operators_collude_to/


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August 02, 2015, 11:42:54 PM
 #4249

True, but I think there's a difference here.

Say china goes offline, instantly, for good.  It would take about what, 200ph offline?

I figure most of that would come back online pretty quickly, as they're miners who aren't affiliated directly with those pools.  Sure, much of ant pool would probably mostly be a complete loss due to their own farm and hosted rentals probably being a majority of the hash rate there. However, I think miners would switch and find other pools pretty quick.  We'd have a dip for a couple days delay while people switch over and find a new home.

This would be different than a nefarious pool attempting a 51% or some sort of underhanded attacking.
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August 03, 2015, 12:19:28 AM
 #4250

It would be FANTASTIC if ALL the SPV mining pools fell off the face of the earth. Beginning with Elgius who are the base for them.
If I were able to legally do something which caused SPV miners a more consistent event which did reach the right people...
Obviously if, if, and more if, but I am shocked at the consistent greed of the majority.

Even though Antpool is the only company selling mining gear to the home miner, SPtech proved it can be done with better gear. I know they said they were at a loss on the SP20, but I believe it had more to do with the price of BTC and their commitment to quality.

The same thing happens with pools. F2Pool are certainly making huge profits with shortcuts that may harm the scene again and again. They do not care. When you openly state you will continue a practice which potentially causes a fork, you are a greedy bastard. When people continue to mine at those pools they are just as much a part of the problem. If only a small percentage of F2pool and the other chinese miners moved to other places, those pool owners would change things quickly. Collectively, individuals do have a voice, but they must speak up. Even if it hurt a little in the short term, they should consider what they do to the entire ecosystem.

Kano and CK certainly seem to me to be more transparent and care much more about doing these things the right way. I'd love to get merge coin payouts, but they've laid out arguments against doing it. I don't plan to bring up the details again now, but I trust them because of other things where I have proven to myself they were right. Unless I setup my own pool and made my own real world tests I do not have the data to properly confirm or deny.
In that vein it is the same with the block size debate. I haven't seen enough through my own experience to put up a great argument things are going to be much worse before they are better, but I believe wholeheartedly the inaction we see before us by the core dev team leaves no other alternative.

There are so many areas of bitcoin where greed has far overcome the logic to always do what is right for the ecosystem and if I can do anything to support people I think do put the good of the protocol over their own self-interests I do so.

Some folks should read this mailing list. I know it is probably boring to many, but the obvious stagnation and stalling tactics of the core versus some of those same devs pushing their main side projects to fruition is staggering. While they know they must keep up appearances they are still very obvious with their intentions through actions. I should say inaction where it concerns bitcoin core but action within their other projects. See for yourself:

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-July/date.html#9338

I do not think Mike Hearn has all the answers, and I know he has personal interests which we could say backup his positions through bitcoinj. I think he has many valid points. His analogies suck sometimes, but his logic sticks in many ways. I see Gavin pushing for something to be done. Even if people do not like his method, it is something, and the stalling and inaction is my complaint. My personal opinion is the block size must be increased but the bigger problem is the incentive for many core devs to harm bitcoin which provides the path for their personal projects for their own benefit. I believe the people who want something to happen are doing everything they can to help bitcoin. Otherwise, do as other devs and let it ride until something breaks and then worry about it. SPV mining falls in this category imo. IT is not forced to validate blocks and this alone is enough to present opportunities for more failure.

I wish there was a way to properly scale bitcoin which still allowed everyone to easily run a full node. I do not like the idea of forcing people to be unable to run a full node through an inability to afford it.
Otherwise I fully agree there should be a plan in place yesterday which would already be in the execution stage to raise the blocksize AND cause SPV mining to be on equal footing with "regular" mining.

You may tell me to make a pull request, code it up if you want a change, to which I respond I know my limitations of today, and I am working to be good enough to play and not be on the bench. I will get there.

As to how this applies to the pool KANO.IS, it is where more people should mine right now.

Maybe there will be a path to a more decentralized mining "pool" in the future. I imagine someone somewhere is trying to code it, but with the direction core is going who knows what we may be doing in a year.

Help get more people to mine at Kano, slush, bitminter. If bitminter or slush have something going on I am unaware of please educate me. I want to state facts and if I say something incorrect I am happy to change what I repeat and explain to others. I have been responsible for many people who have started using bitcoin and mining. While I have Uno in my sig, bitcoin is and will always be my main love and I plan to edit my sig again to show such. I have recently edited it to pull out my rental recommendations because of learning about the likeliness of block withholding when renting hash. It is a shame I cannot recommend renting but I cannot. It is not right to present opportunities for people to steal from my fellow miners because many of them support our scene at breakeven or even a loss simply to show their support. Profits are slim to none for so many hobby miners and again, so many do it simply because they believe it will change the world for the better.

My sig is for people, places and ideas I personally believe will help bitcoin. It is not for sale.
My tiny farm is how I trade fiat for bitcoin, and I will keep it going as long as I can keep doing so but you will not see me learn of a person, company, or idea who does not put the overall good of the bitcoin project first and I hope people realize we are all still the early people. We may not be the first, but we are still shaping this to be what it will be in not only long term, but the very near future. If I could find a company or project to work fulltime in bitcoin and still manage to get my kiddos through college without them racking up tons of debt I would have already done so. I hope I find that "thing" because this is the biggest passion I've had in my life. This is the thing I get in a flow and have to stop myself to be able to function well at what does pay the bills.

I see so many of you with the same intentions, and I hope we are the ones who drive the roads to take all of us to the worldwide adoption. I fear there will be the people with more money who do more of the driving because they are simply too greedy to make decisions with short sighted results and do not care about the long term and no matter the cost to the potential. It will not take too many bad publicity scandals at key points in the next 18 months to seriously harm everyone. People who seize opportunities to make a bit more money without caring will cause serious damage. Push your friends, family or anyone you know is mining to move to a pool you believe are trying to do the right things. Even a stickminer on CKpool is better than it being on Elgius or a chinese pool.

I know I sound idealistic and pie in the sky sometimes, but please do not let such deter you from at least considering my message. Take a few minutes to consider the direction we are being driven.
Stop supporting them with any tool you have. IF hashrate is all you have then use it, and convince others to do the same.
We DO have a voice.

Transaction fees go to the pools and the pools decide to pay them to the miners. Anything else, including off-chain solutions are stealing and not the way Bitcoin was intended to function.
Make the block size set by the pool. Pool = miners and they get the choice.
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August 03, 2015, 01:20:05 AM
 #4251

I cant for the life of me understand why anybody would use F2pool they currently pay .0092 and then they hit you with a 4% fee... leaving you with about .0088 per TH/s per day, then you have to wait 24 hours after that for a payout...  

I must be missing something.. because that many users cant be that stupid sorry, I probably should not call them names


oh and BLOCK YAY
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August 03, 2015, 05:06:50 AM
 #4252

Payout 368080 sent
f98fe65443655637aeff486836760231738f3b6835de2c45c5a88481b3a4210b
and confirmed

Pool: https://kano.is - low 0.5% fee PPLNS 3 Days - Most reliable Solo with ONLY 0.5% fee   Bitcointalk thread: Forum
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August 03, 2015, 08:32:22 AM
 #4253

I cant for the life of me understand why anybody would use F2pool they currently pay .0092 and then they hit you with a 4% fee... leaving you with about .0088 per TH/s per day, then you have to wait 24 hours after that for a payout...  

I must be missing something.. because that many users cant be that stupid sorry, I probably should not call them names


oh and BLOCK YAY

We pay 0.0092, not 0.0088. We also pay 0.0739 NMC per TH/s. So the real fee is much like 2.2% instead of 4%.

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August 03, 2015, 11:26:24 AM
 #4254

I cant for the life of me understand why anybody would use F2pool they currently pay .0092 and then they hit you with a 4% fee... leaving you with about .0088 per TH/s per day, then you have to wait 24 hours after that for a payout...  

I must be missing something.. because that many users cant be that stupid sorry, I probably should not call them names


oh and BLOCK YAY

We pay 0.0092, not 0.0088. We also pay 0.0739 NMC per TH/s. So the real fee is much like 2.2% instead of 4%.

What purpose does it serve to jack up the fee to cover NMC payouts? Quite a gimmicky thing eh? Quite a little game which shows another log in the greed fire.

I wonder how much of your user base are outside china.


Transaction fees go to the pools and the pools decide to pay them to the miners. Anything else, including off-chain solutions are stealing and not the way Bitcoin was intended to function.
Make the block size set by the pool. Pool = miners and they get the choice.
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August 03, 2015, 12:22:04 PM
 #4255

I cant for the life of me understand why anybody would use F2pool they currently pay .0092 and then they hit you with a 4% fee... leaving you with about .0088 per TH/s per day, then you have to wait 24 hours after that for a payout...  

I must be missing something.. because that many users cant be that stupid sorry, I probably should not call them names


oh and BLOCK YAY

We pay 0.0092, not 0.0088. We also pay 0.0739 NMC per TH/s. So the real fee is much like 2.2% instead of 4%.
Right and the fee here is 0.9% but the average block has been 25.116 BTC since the pool started
(well the last 50 average has been a lot higher at 25.20 BTC ... but anyway)
... and so far orphans have been 2 in 296 blocks.

So what's our expected payout when luck is 100%?

(25.116 / 25) * ( 1 - (2 / 296) ) * 0.991 =

1.00464 * 0.99324 * 0.991 = 0.98887 i.e. kano.is 98.89% PPS more than 1% more than f2pool's 97.8%

Also ....... long term pool luck (since the start) is ... kano.is 102.72% not 100% ... so we've averaged quite a bit higher than 98.9% ... ... ...

Also ....... the last 50 block luck is currently ... kano.is 110.17% even well above 102.72% ... ...

Yeah I have no idea why people mine at your pool Cheesy

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August 03, 2015, 01:08:52 PM
 #4256

31 minutes since the network has solved a block... is that a long time or is it just me

Meh... they are all slow today

2 days ago I saw 57 minutes since the network solved a block, it was a period where about 70Ph fell off for a while, since the diff is based on network hash and say a large pool has issues and the network looses 70ph, blocks can get quite long.

I see that as an issue if say China lost all internet in a massive attack or natural disaster. Since more then 60% of all the hash is in China, we would be in deep dodo with blocks going days and maybe weeks.

You have it backwards. It appeared that 70PHs fell off because of the bad luck on the entire network. It's the opposite as when there is a run of good luck and it appears that a lot of hashrate has been added to the network.

I'm constantly surprised that so many miners don't understand this simple principle.
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August 03, 2015, 01:33:11 PM
 #4257

31 minutes since the network has solved a block... is that a long time or is it just me

Meh... they are all slow today

2 days ago I saw 57 minutes since the network solved a block, it was a period where about 70Ph fell off for a while, since the diff is based on network hash and say a large pool has issues and the network looses 70ph, blocks can get quite long.

I see that as an issue if say China lost all internet in a massive attack or natural disaster. Since more then 60% of all the hash is in China, we would be in deep dodo with blocks going days and maybe weeks.

You have it backwards. It appeared that 70PHs fell off because of the bad luck on the entire network. It's the opposite as when there is a run of good luck and it appears that a lot of hashrate has been added to the network.

I'm constantly surprised that so many miners don't understand this simple principle.

So your saying that since the network as a whole had a period of bad luck, people shut down 70ph of hash during that time? Hash is Hash in the network, good luck or bad luck does not change how many miners are connected. Unless they choose to disconnect or a network/power/disaster type issue prevents them from connecting. I'm not sure I get the luck effect of current network hash. Luck only effects finding blocks and payments. Maybe I am missing something here.

I think what we are saying is that china went offline, it would take a long time at 150ph to get past 2000 or so blocks till next adjustment. Much longer vs. someone adding 200ph to the network, within 1-2 days it would adjust to 100B plus to bring back to 10m blocks.

Not being rude or anything, just don't understand the correlation of luck and amount of hash on network as a whole. Wink

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August 03, 2015, 02:09:35 PM
 #4258

No, what he's saying is that it only APPEARS 70PH/s went offline.  It's called statistical variance.  Nobody actually shut down 70PH/s and then turned it back on.  The network went for an hour without finding a block?  So?  That's only at 600% if you use the 10 minute expected solve time.  Will it happen often?  No, but it's sure as hell going to happen.

EDIT:

Oh, and by the way... for the math challenged... if the entire network dropped 60% (from 400 PH/s to 160PH/s), assuming it did so immediately at the difficulty adjustment and that adjustment is the current network difficulty of 52278304845.59168243:
Code:
2^256 / (((2^224 - 2^208) / 52278304845.59168243) * 160000000000000000) = 1403.35647
At 160PH/s and current difficulty, the network would expect to take 1403.35647 seconds to find a block.  Therefore, you'd expect the network to take 32.74498 days to find 2016 blocks.

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August 03, 2015, 02:45:48 PM
 #4259

Well looking at it in terms of a pool finding a block ... and it doesn't matter if the pool is 1% of the network or 100% of the network ...
i.e. you can look at it in terms of the whole bitcoin network ...

a 666.666% diff block has a CDF of: 0.99872735771441 (yep that's why the blocks page says 0.999)

So what does that mean?

It's expected on average for a bit more than 1 in 1000 blocks to be > 666.666% Diff ... so you could equate that to > 666.666% longer

So if the network is 5% faster than 10 minutes (which it isn't, it's less) then the average block time would be 540s so you'd expect on average a bit more than 1 in 1000 blocks to take longer than ... 540 x 6.66666 = 3599.9965s = ~1hr

So you'd expect on average a bit over 2 blocks per block change to take over an hour ...

But of course if that 5% figure was lower, then the 540 factor would be higher, and the 1hr would be higher.

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August 03, 2015, 07:14:03 PM
 #4260

is the pool down?

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