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piotr_n
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August 02, 2012, 09:54:38 PM
 #241

yeah because these bonds pay such a crazy amount of interest the best way to do it for a large amount of bonds is to send me first then i pull from pirate and then send you directly. lowest way on fees too.
well, in such a case one question comes to my mind: do you have some bitcoin-otc rating? Wink
lol nope:)
then I think anyone would rather send your bonds to pirate and ask him to send back the money... Tongue
or maybe it's just the time to start building up the rating. Smiley

really if you dont trust me to pay for your bonds you should not do business with me. also if you send and i said you did not trust me nefario would make it public...
It isn't me who doesn't trust you - I'm not the one who sells the bonds below 1.0
But obviously there are some trust issues and ignoring them is probably not the best solution for any further Tygrr businesses.

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piotr_n
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August 02, 2012, 09:59:44 PM
 #242

Don't take me wrong.
I am only saying that if there are (and there are) people who sell the bonds at 0.97 then they are either stupid or they prefer to loose the 3% just to avoid making a direct business with you.

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piotr_n
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August 02, 2012, 10:02:32 PM
 #243

Don't take me wrong.
I am only saying that if there are (and there are) people who sell the bonds at 0.97 then they are either stupid or they prefer to loose the 3% just to avoid making a direct business with you.
i would say either in a hurry or stupid Smiley
ok. Smiley
anyway, you can take my word that when I decide to sell my bonds, I will contact you via private means.
but even then I'd appreciate you having an OTC rating so I could give you one and get back one from you Tongue

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piotr_n
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August 02, 2012, 10:09:16 PM
 #244

Don't take me wrong.
I am only saying that if there are (and there are) people who sell the bonds at 0.97 then they are either stupid or they prefer to loose the 3% just to avoid making a direct business with you.
i would say either in a hurry or stupid Smiley
ok. Smiley
anyway, you can take my word that when I decide to sell my bonds, I will contact you.
and then I'd appreciate you having an OTC rating so I could give you one and get back one from you Tongue

I do not support OTC because people can and do leave ratings for personal reasons that do not involve trading. It is not a rating system that I trust.
so which one would be is a rating system that you trust?
and also, you want people to send you bonds before you send them bitcoins - so it isn't really important if you trust the system, but it is only important if people who send you the bonds do trust the system, right?

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MrTeal
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August 02, 2012, 10:17:57 PM
 #245

so which one would be is a rating system that you trust?
and also, you want people to send you bonds before you send them bitcoins - so it isn't really important if you trust the system, but it is only important if people who send you the bonds do trust the system, right?

The fact that you have bonds already shows you trust Goat. The bonds are just GLBSE's paper keeping for your money that Goat has in his Pirate account. Goat already has your BTC.
piotr_n
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August 02, 2012, 10:20:53 PM
 #246

so which one would be is a rating system that you trust?
and also, you want people to send you bonds before you send them bitcoins - so it isn't really important if you trust the system, but it is only important if people who send you the bonds do trust the system, right?

The fact that you have bonds already shows you trust Goat. The bonds are just GLBSE's paper keeping for your money that Goat has in his Pirate account. Goat already has your BTC.
I disagree with the statement that there is the same trust needed to own the bonds, as to send a thousand of them to Goat, hoping for a payback in an offline bitcoin transaction.

Whatever happens on GLBSE can be verified by Nefario and you cannot actually screw one person without screwing the others (including the guys from a Russian mafia).
While (100% hypothetically!) after I sent him the bonds, how can I prove that he paid me for them after all? It's much harder then...
And even if I could prove it, there would be no Russian mafia going after him, because I was the only one who got screwed over Tongue

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bitfoo
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August 02, 2012, 10:26:11 PM
 #247

Whatever happens on GLBSE can be verified by Nefario and you cannot actually screw one person without screwing the others (including the guys from a Russian mafia).
While (100% hypothetically!) after I sent him the bonds, how can I prove that he paid me for them after all? It's much harder then...
And even if I could prove it, there would be no Russian mafia going after him, because I was the only one who got screwed over Tongue

He could simply send you the BTC through GLBSE too, that way it's verifiable by Nefario. Problem solved?

MrTeal
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August 02, 2012, 10:28:14 PM
 #248

so which one would be is a rating system that you trust?
and also, you want people to send you bonds before you send them bitcoins - so it isn't really important if you trust the system, but it is only important if people who send you the bonds do trust the system, right?

The fact that you have bonds already shows you trust Goat. The bonds are just GLBSE's paper keeping for your money that Goat has in his Pirate account. Goat already has your BTC.
I disagree with the statement that there is the same trust to own the bonds, as to send a thousand of them to Goat, hoping for a payback in an offline bitcoin transaction.

Whatever happens on GLBSE can be verified by Nefario and you cannot actually screw one person without screwing the others (including the guys from a Russian mafia).
While (100% hypothetically!) after I sent him the bonds, how can I prove that he paid me for them after all?
It;s much harder then and even if I can prove it, there will be no Russian mafia going after him because I'm not one of them Tongue
Why would there have to be an offline transaction? You transfer the bonds to Goat, which incurs a 0.2% fee. Have Goat withdraw to his GLBSE account and transfer it to you there; there would be no fees with that other than maybe taking an extra day. If you want to be paid quicker directly post the desired address somewhere verifiable.
piotr_n
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August 02, 2012, 10:28:27 PM
 #249

Whatever happens on GLBSE can be verified by Nefario and you cannot actually screw one person without screwing the others (including the guys from a Russian mafia).
While (100% hypothetically!) after I sent him the bonds, how can I prove that he paid me for them after all? It's much harder then...
And even if I could prove it, there would be no Russian mafia going after him, because I was the only one who got screwed over Tongue

He could simply send you the BTC through GLBSE too, that way it's verifiable by Nefario. Problem solved?
Not really.
Because then the swap costs us 0.4% while he could still screw me over without screwing over the Russian mafia Wink
I tell you: OTC rating is the best way to go - Pirate's reputation is based on OTC rating and this specific Goat's business is based on Pirate's business.

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bitfoo
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August 02, 2012, 10:30:12 PM
 #250

Not really.
Because then the swap costs us 0.4% while he could still screw me over without screwing over the Russian mafia Wink

BTC transfers are free on GLBSE.

piotr_n
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August 02, 2012, 10:33:44 PM
 #251

Not really.
Because then the swap costs us 0.4% while he could still screw me over without screwing over the Russian mafia Wink

BTC transfers are free on GLBSE.
Really?
Good to know.
In such case it makes it twice cheaper.

It's not that I am insisting on any solution - just writing down my thoughts, hoping that nobody minds. Smiley

Check out gocoin - my original project of a bitcoin client written in Go, with some unique features.
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nimda
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August 03, 2012, 04:57:51 AM
 #252

I would absolutely love to sell my CPA holding for 0.85 Wink

I recommend asking me for a signature from my GPG key before doing a trade. I will NEVER deny such a request.
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August 03, 2012, 05:00:44 AM
 #253

Yeah, there's really no point in buying them for 1.02 from Goat when you can just buy them for less than 1.00 on the free market.

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August 03, 2012, 09:30:30 AM
 #254

in any case I (and probably other people as well) would appreciate you taking some steps to make sure the price of the bonds never goes below 1.0

Why? Isn't it awesome to buy this bond for less than 1 btc?

piotr_n
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August 03, 2012, 10:03:27 AM
 #255

in any case I (and probably other people as well) would appreciate you taking some steps to make sure the price of the bonds never goes below 1.0
Why? Isn't it awesome to buy this bond for less than 1 btc?
In theory - yes, it is awesome for ppl who would want to buy in at this moment...
In practice - if it was so awesome, why ppl haven't been buying in?

Obviously the market for these specific bonds is saturated. No growing lasts forever and during the next few weeks I would rather expect the number of bonds to go down, not up anymore like for many of the past weeks.
I don't know how much bitcoins Goat has in BS&T on top of the P-bonds' volume, he probably wouldn't tell, it's non of our business, whatever, but... AFAIK Pirate pays 7% only for 25k+ accounts.
So it is important for the business to keep the bonds volume high - which is simply not possible when the market price is a couple of percent below the price of the brand new bonds that should be entering the market and even below the buy-back price.

Moreover, with all the respect @Goat, but making statements like "If you don't trust me then please start selling my stuff" is (phrasing it gently) not the best approach to bring the prices back to the normal levels, where they were ~2 weeks ago. You should know that people who still have some bitcoins to invest don't fully trust anyone and it is not about you, but just a general rule, so don't take it so personal, man. We are making business here and not looking for spouses.

Anyway, at the moment I am a guy who owns few hundreds of recently underpriced TYGRR.BOND-P bonds.. and this is not awesome for me, since I would rather prefer to have an option of selling them at a price similar to the one I paid - which is between 1.02 and 1.088, depending on a week day.

So in the end, when you consider more variables of the equation, "awesome" becomes a pretty relative term. Tongue

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Vandroiy
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August 03, 2012, 12:48:23 PM
 #256

i have said before if someone wants to sell i will buy at 1. they just need to let me know how much and give me a reasonable amount of time to get the funds to glbse.

thanks

Has this been revoked?
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August 03, 2012, 01:09:25 PM
 #257

in any case I (and probably other people as well) would appreciate you taking some steps to make sure the price of the bonds never goes below 1.0
Why? Isn't it awesome to buy this bond for less than 1 btc?
In theory - yes, it is awesome for ppl who would want to buy in at this moment...
In practice - if it was so awesome, why ppl haven't been buying in?

Obviously the market for these specific bonds is saturated. No growing lasts forever and during the next few weeks I would rather expect the number of bonds to go down, not up anymore like for many of the past weeks.
I don't know how much bitcoins Goat has in BS&T on top of the P-bonds' volume, he probably wouldn't tell, it's non of our business, whatever, but... AFAIK Pirate pays 7% only for 25k+ accounts.
So it is important for the business to keep the bonds volume high - which is simply not possible when the market price is a couple of percent below the price of the brand new bonds that should be entering the market and even below the buy-back price.

Moreover, with all the respect @Goat, but making statements like "If you don't trust me then please start selling my stuff" is (phrasing it gently) not the best approach to bring the prices back to the normal levels, where they were ~2 weeks ago. You should know that people who still have some bitcoins to invest don't fully trust anyone and it is not about you, but just a general rule, so don't take it so personal, man. We are making business here and not looking for spouses.

Anyway, at the moment I am a guy who owns few hundreds of recently underpriced TYGRR.BOND-P bonds.. and this is not awesome for me, since I would rather prefer to have an option of selling them at a price similar to the one I paid - which is between 1.02 and 1.088, depending on a week day.

So in the end, when you consider more variables of the equation, "awesome" becomes a pretty relative term. Tongue

You have to understand this is a BOND, not a stock commodity. Stop fussing over the free market price, especially when a fixed buy back at 1.0 is guaranteed. A bond is expected to earn you money via dividends (coupons), not growth of principal worth.

In fact a low price is awesome. 0.068BTC per share of 0.98 is much better yield than of 1.02.
piotr_n
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August 03, 2012, 01:16:01 PM
 #258

You have to understand this is a BOND, not a stock commodity. Stop fussing over the free market price, especially when a fixed buy back at 1.0 is guaranteed. A bond is expected to earn you money via dividends (coupons), not growth of principal worth.

In fact a low price is awesome. 0.068BTC per share of 0.98 is much better yield than of 1.02.
I do understand what I have to understand, so thanks for a free lecture of economy, but it's really pretty much worthless for me.

If this is so "awesome" for you then I can only wonder why you haven't bought the hew hundreds that are still for sale at <1.0?

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coinft
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August 03, 2012, 01:38:19 PM
 #259

You have to understand this is a BOND, not a stock commodity. Stop fussing over the free market price, especially when a fixed buy back at 1.0 is guaranteed. A bond is expected to earn you money via dividends (coupons), not growth of principal worth.

In fact a low price is awesome. 0.068BTC per share of 0.98 is much better yield than of 1.02.
I do understand what I have to understand, so thanks for a free lecture of economy, but it's really pretty much worthless for me.

If this is so "awesome" for you then I can only wonder why you haven't bought the hew hundreds that are still for sale at <1.0?

I got some, but there's a limit to my funds and willingness to put everything in one basket.

And I am happy to have been of assistance in your education.


piotr_n
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August 03, 2012, 02:47:04 PM
 #260

I got some, but there's a limit to my funds and willingness to put everything in one basket.

And I am happy to have been of assistance in your education.
Really - is there such thing as limit of willingness of putting things into awesome BOND baskets?
That sounds like some really tough, high level economics.
Now I understand why studding in US is so expensive - your science and economics are just so much more advanced Tongue
And I got it for free - really, thank you!!

Check out gocoin - my original project of a bitcoin client written in Go, with some unique features.
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