[BitAffNet] How we're the #1 Bitcoin Mining Pool In The World (or so we thought)

[s0br]

I did update my signature to accurately reflect the now 1% bonus. Thank you.

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[IYFTech]

I did update my signature to accurately reflect the now 1% bonus. Thank you.

Better lose the "+ hourly payments" in your sig too - or change it to something more truthful & accurate like: "weekly & short - if you're lucky & I can be bothered"  

[jmumich]

... I do address and answer questions... to pool users... via email newsletters. The little time I do manage to have I reserve for the pool users that want to see it stick around. Everyone has their reasons for mining here. I will publish a statement soon addressing some issues and concerns here. It's just a simple matter of providing more information.

I think that many of us who have voiced concerns (trolls aside) want the pool to stick around. One question I have is the pool's ability to sustain a long period of bad luck while maintaining payouts. Bad luck will happen, and if payouts have to be put on hold, that can cause miners to switch pools, lowering the hashrate and increasing variance, which could compound the problem.

My guess is many use this pool for the steady PPS returns and, of course, the music when a block is solved. The bonus is nice, but I wonder if it makes some miners a little wary about the pool's ability to payout long-term. So keep up the good work and I look forward to hearing more about the plans for the pool going forward.

[aurel57]

... I do address and answer questions... to pool users... via email newsletters. The little time I do manage to have I reserve for the pool users that want to see it stick around. Everyone has their reasons for mining here. I will publish a statement soon addressing some issues and concerns here. It's just a simple matter of providing more information.

I think that many of us who have voiced concerns (trolls aside) want the pool to stick around. One question I have is the pool's ability to sustain a long period of bad luck while maintaining payouts. Bad luck will happen, and if payouts have to be put on hold, that can cause miners to switch pools, lowering the hashrate and increasing variance, which could compound the problem.

My guess is many use this pool for the steady PPS returns and, of course, the music when a block is solved. The bonus is nice, but I wonder if it makes some miners a little wary about the pool's ability to payout long-term. So keep up the good work and I look forward to hearing more about the plans for the pool going forward.

Very good questions. One thing I will say I respect s0br as he has been thru hell and back with this pool and it's still here. At the start he was a one man show and had fallen asleep at the keyboard and has always made things right with me and others as far as I know. I really would like to see this pool not only stick around but I would like to see it thrive and put pressure on the biggest PPS pool, but there will only be one way to do that.

[jonnybravo0311]

Any PPS pool's sustainability depends on the depth of the pool operator's pockets.  Statistically, the payout method is doomed to failure simply because of luck and orphans.  No pool can guarantee 100% or greater luck, and as a result, the bad times must be paid for out of pocket.  This is why most every PPS pool charges high fees to miners - to help offset that out-of-pocket cost to the pool operator.  At 0% fees, and a promised 1% bonus, s0br has taken on every bit of risk by himself.

Think on this for a second.  A single bad luck round of 800% means that the pool must have 175BTC as a buffer in order to ensure miners are paid.  Since this pool would pay 101%, that's 177BTC buffer for that bad luck round.  In other words, unless this pool remains averaging better than 101% luck, s0br's paying out of pocket.  Of course, s0br may very well be merge-mining a bunch of SHA-256 coins to help offset this... as well as using any ad revenues from the site, but when push comes to shove, the end result is that the BTC mining operation cannot sustain itself.

So, the question you must ask yourself is this, "Do I trust s0br to keep shoveling coins into the pool to ensure I get paid?"

[aurel57]

Any PPS pool's sustainability depends on the depth of the pool operator's pockets.  Statistically, the payout method is doomed to failure simply because of luck and orphans.  No pool can guarantee 100% or greater luck, and as a result, the bad times must be paid for out of pocket.  This is why most every PPS pool charges high fees to miners - to help offset that out-of-pocket cost to the pool operator.  At 0% fees, and a promised 1% bonus, s0br has taken on every bit of risk by himself.

Think on this for a second.  A single bad luck round of 800% means that the pool must have 175BTC as a buffer in order to ensure miners are paid.  Since this pool would pay 101%, that's 177BTC buffer for that bad luck round.  In other words, unless this pool remains averaging better than 101% luck, s0br's paying out of pocket.  Of course, s0br may very well be merge-mining a bunch of SHA-256 coins to help offset this... as well as using any ad revenues from the site, but when push comes to shove, the end result is that the BTC mining operation cannot sustain itself.

So, the question you must ask yourself is this, "Do I trust s0br to keep shoveling coins into the pool to ensure I get paid?"

Don't forget the months of very high bonus, also  throw in  a wallet that got compromised acouple of times to the tune of 100+ BTC and it's easy to see how it has been a struggle. But unless something changed this pool was to be used for a larger business dealing as I think in cloud mining and/or hosting miners. Which at that point it changes the profit motive compared to a stand alone pool.

[jonnybravo0311]

Don't forget the months of very high bonus, also  throw in  a wallet that got compromised acouple of times to the tune of 100+ BTC and it's easy to see how it has been a struggle. But unless something changed this pool was to be used for a larger business dealing as I think in cloud mining and/or hosting miners. Which at that point it changes the profit motive compared to a stand alone pool.

I purposefully didn't include the prior months of 10% bonuses or past wallet compromises.  Obviously those factors mean even more coins from the pool operator's pockets .  As for the other business, perhaps that other venture is providing the income to sustain the pool.  It's a tough call to make as a business owner.  Do I continue to maintain a part of my business that is guaranteed to hemorrhage money?  Well, does that business unit attract enough attention to my other ventures to make up for that negative cash flow?

[aurel57]

Don't forget the months of very high bonus, also  throw in  a wallet that got compromised acouple of times to the tune of 100+ BTC and it's easy to see how it has been a struggle. But unless something changed this pool was to be used for a larger business dealing as I think in cloud mining and/or hosting miners. Which at that point it changes the profit motive compared to a stand alone pool.

I purposefully didn't include the prior months of 10% bonuses or past wallet compromises.  Obviously those factors mean even more coins from the pool operator's pockets .  As for the other business, perhaps that other venture is providing the income to sustain the pool.  It's a tough call to make as a business owner.  Do I continue to maintain a part of my business that is guaranteed to hemorrhage money?  Well, does that business unit attract enough attention to my other ventures to make up for that negative cash flow?

Very true. I have a feeling the other part of this venture is getting a very late start and/or has not started yet.  I only say this due to what was said from the start and the last email I received from the pool about purchasing a large data center. I am thinking the pool was a place for the other business to run off of and have a spot that he could control and trust which makes sense to me. Also a lot of time businesses us a loss leader to drum up business which again a attractive pool could be used for. But I am just speculating.

[jonnybravo0311]

Very true. I have a feeling the other part of this venture is getting a very late start and/or has not started yet.  I only say this due to what was said from the start and the last email I received from the pool about purchasing a large data center. I am thinking the pool was a place for the other business to run off of and have a spot that he could control and trust which makes sense to me. Also a lot of time businesses us a loss leader to drum up business which again a attractive pool could be used for. But I am just speculating.

You know the old saying... you've got to spend money to make money.

[IYFTech]

Not forgetting networking costs, multiple server costs & multiple rig rentals at silly prices - all adding up to a completely unsustainable pool plan. Someone has to pay for all this right? I guarantee you it isn't s0br, which only leaves the miners to foot the bill, which they have been doing for the last 6 months. Hardly surprising they're using unpaid/stolen mining equipment......unless s0br can prove otherwise of course in his upcoming & eagerly awaited "statement".

As has been mentioned before:

I really do wish someone who's been mining on BAN would come and share their experience and payouts so we can see just how they actually do.

Good luck on that wish.  Based on their thread(s), it's nothing but people who can't spell, perform basic arithmetic, or understand that -10% fee PPS is going to end in a lot of people getting fucked over if they're not already.

[jonnybravo0311]

Not forgetting networking costs, multiple server costs & multiple rig rentals at silly prices - all adding up to a completely unsustainable pool plan. Someone has to pay for all this right? I guarantee you it isn't s0br, which only leaves the miners to foot the bill, which they have been doing for the last 6 months. Hardly surprising they're using unpaid/stolen mining equipment......unless s0br can prove otherwise of course in his upcoming & eagerly awaited "statement".

As has been mentioned before:

I really do wish someone who's been mining on BAN would come and share their experience and payouts so we can see just how they actually do.

Good luck on that wish.  Based on their thread(s), it's nothing but people who can't spell, perform basic arithmetic, or understand that -10% fee PPS is going to end in a lot of people getting fucked over if they're not already.

I remember that discussion well, since I was directly involved in it .  The context of it was that I was looking for actual BAN miners to come forth with their payouts to provide evidence to the claims of 110% expectations.  I provided evidence of my own miners clearly showing that p2pool had paid more than the 110% claimed by BAN, and that p2pool had quite effectively walloped BAN during the supposed test period.  I pointed out that p2pool was left out of the testing, so I provided the numbers.  Of course, that brought out the more vocal idiots who did everything they could to spew enough bullshit to try and bury my evidence.  In his response, Eleuthria states the obvious - which has been stated numerous times throughout this thread - that a PPS pool cannot survive on its own merit.  He is also very openly calling out the vocal idiots on their inability to post any kind of logical arguments.

[aurel57]

Not forgetting networking costs, multiple server costs & multiple rig rentals at silly prices - all adding up to a completely unsustainable pool plan. Someone has to pay for all this right? I guarantee you it isn't s0br, which only leaves the miners to foot the bill, which they have been doing for the last 6 months. Hardly surprising they're using unpaid/stolen mining equipment......unless s0br can prove otherwise of course in his upcoming & eagerly awaited "statement".

As has been mentioned before:

I really do wish someone who's been mining on BAN would come and share their experience and payouts so we can see just how they actually do.

Good luck on that wish.  Based on their thread(s), it's nothing but people who can't spell, perform basic arithmetic, or understand that -10% fee PPS is going to end in a lot of people getting fucked over if they're not already.

Not forgetting networking costs, multiple server costs & multiple rig rentals at silly prices - all adding up to a completely unsustainable pool plan. very true and valid points!

I guarantee you it isn't s0br, which only leaves the miners to foot the bill, . I say bullshit, I know when the payments came on time I was getting paid the right amount with the bonus. When payments came ever two hours it was easy to monitor and check for correctness.

Hardly surprising they're using unpaid/stolen mining equipment.. prove what your saying or anybody else PROVE IT!

Good luck on that wish.  Based on their thread(s), it's nothing but people who can't spell, perform basic arithmetic, or understand that -10% fee PPS is going to end in a lot of people getting fucked over if they're not already.  I use to hold Eleuthera in a very high regard, but no longer.

[jonnybravo0311]

Good luck on that wish.  Based on their thread(s), it's nothing but people who can't spell, perform basic arithmetic, or understand that -10% fee PPS is going to end in a lot of people getting fucked over if they're not already.  I use to hold Eleuthera in a very high regard, but no longer.

Why not?  Maybe you missed out on the context of Eleuthria's response.  At the time of this quote, I was calling fire000 out on his BS claims.  He was spreading lies and misinformation around the board.  His arguments were terrible, his ability to construct well thought out posts was nonexistent, and his spelling was just terrible.  I was asking for any BAN miners to share their information as I had, so we could have a good point of reference.  Eleuthria basically said I had a better chance of stepping in fresh dinosaur shit than of my request being fulfilled.  He also pointed out that the pool model as it was could not possibly sustain itself and that sooner or later the miners would bear the brunt of it.

None of what he wrote in his reply was irrelevant at the time, so I'm confused as to why your view of him has changed.

[aurel57]

Good luck on that wish.  Based on their thread(s), it's nothing but people who can't spell, perform basic arithmetic, or understand that -10% fee PPS is going to end in a lot of people getting fucked over if they're not already.  I use to hold Eleuthera in a very high regard, but no longer.

Why not?  Maybe you missed out on the context of Eleuthria's response.  At the time of this quote, I was calling fire000 out on his BS claims.  He was spreading lies and misinformation around the board.  His arguments were terrible, his ability to construct well thought out posts was nonexistent, and his spelling was just terrible.  I was asking for any BAN miners to share their information as I had, so we could have a good point of reference.  Eleuthria basically said I had a better chance of stepping in fresh dinosaur shit than of my request being fulfilled.  He also pointed out that the pool model as it was could not possibly sustain itself and that sooner or later the miners would bear the brunt of it.

None of what he wrote in his reply was irrelevant at the time, so I'm confused as to why your view of him has changed.

Maybe I misunderstood what was he was quoted,  "everyone on the BAN thread can't spell or perform basic math"? ... Hell I was one of the first people to have a argument with fire000 on the first BAN thread.

[IYFTech]

prove what your saying or anybody else PROVE IT!

Documentation has already been posted. If that documentation is false it will be very easy for s0br to prove otherwise.

I use to hold Eleuthera in a very high regard, but no longer.

Eleuthria is probably one of the most respected, knowledgeable, honest, truthful & highly talented pool devs there is on this forum. He has been around for a lot longer than most have here, and I'm sure he will still be here long after s0br has gone (again). He has done more for this community & mining in general than most could ever imagine - you would do well to listen & take his advice.

It is not just Eleuthria who has stated their concerns about this pool, other devs have too, both pool & software devs in fact, & who have a vast amount of experience between them. They know what they are talking about.

He will also transparently answer any & every question thrown at him by miners on his pool thread, usually within hours, no matter how mundane or repetitive - when did you ever see support like that here - or anywhere else for that matter?

[jonnybravo0311]

Maybe I misunderstood what was he was quoted, as  everyone on the BAN thread can't spell or perform basic math... Hell I was one of the first people to have a argument with fire000 on the first BAN thread.

Yeah... fire000 attracted my attention on the p2pool thread.  He came on there claiming p2pool was broken and the payouts were somehow flawed.  It was quite a few pages of back and forth between us.  Naturally I felt compelled to counter his absurdity with actual verifiable evidence to the contrary.

I remember the original BAN thread and had posted in it as well.  I remember thinking to myself, "why is this s0br guy standing by and doing nothing while these idiots continue to behave the way they do... it's going to make him and his pool look bad very soon."

Honestly, a part of me feels for the guy... every time he makes an appearance he's attacked.  Of course, if he had been present all along, had not let verifiable idiots speak for him and his pool, and had truly been transparent about his business model it's very likely none of this vitriol against him ever would have happened.  Of course as time has gone on, more and more people join in with the lynch mob carrying their pitchforks and screaming for him to be burned at the stake.

[aurel57]

prove what your saying or anybody else PROVE IT!

Documentation has already been posted. If that documentation is false it will be very easy for s0br to prove otherwise.

I use to hold Eleuthera in a very high regard, but no longer.

Eleuthria is probably one of the most respected, knowledgeable, honest, truthful & highly talented pool devs there is on this forum. He has been around for a lot longer than most have here, and I'm sure he will still be here long after s0br has gone (again). He has done more for this community & mining in general than most could ever imagine - you would do well to listen & take his advice.

It is not just Eleuthria who has stated their concerns about this pool, other devs have too, both pool & software devs in fact, & who have a vast amount of experience between them. They know what they are talking about.

It is not just Eleuthria who has stated their concerns about this pool I guess it's one thing to questioned the pool but to state that he thinks basically anybody on the pool is a idiot then that is something else.

I guess it was hard for us that we're mining on the pool getting paid not only the right amount but the bonus, to have some state it was a scam or we were getting ripped off, well the payments said otherwise. So you can see how most were turned off by that talk and took it as a unfounded attack. It would have been much better to just hear facts as to why the pool will not be able to continue those type of payments as some did. But as a miner getting paid on time and the right amount it really didn't matter if s0br wanted to pay me out of his pocket as it still may have been cheaper for him than what he paid to rent hash, and in essence he really was just renting our miners paying us PPS.

Documentation has already been posted. If that documentation is false it will be very easy for s0br to prove otherwise. Please show me how 1 FedEx receipt shows or means anything? I would also like to hear how he could ever prove what that receipt means?

[.....Really?]

Documentation has already been posted. If that documentation is false it will be very easy for s0br to prove otherwise. Please show me how 1 FedEx receipt shows or means anything? I would also like to hear how he could ever prove what that receipt means?

If what you think is true, s0br will have no problem proving otherwise will he? As I & others keep saying.

Regarding fire000 ( ), s0br was not only well aware of what he was doing, but actively encouraged him. Many times s0br & fire000 took turns hurling abuse at me on the BAN scam thread - although they were never online at the same time.......hmmmmmm. fire000 also seemed to take it upon himself to speak for s0br on the original BAN thread, as can be seen here & in numerous pages afterwards:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=722202.60

..again, with s0brs full knowledge & blessings. To suggest that it was not s0brs fault & that he was a victim of fire000's incessant trolling is nonsense. fire000 is not the only BAN troll used by s0br, there are quite a few, also listed in the scam thread.

I kind of miss him though - he did say the most stupidest things.......

[aurel57]

Maybe I misunderstood what was he was quoted, as  everyone on the BAN thread can't spell or perform basic math... Hell I was one of the first people to have a argument with fire000 on the first BAN thread.

Yeah... fire000 attracted my attention on the p2pool thread.  He came on there claiming p2pool was broken and the payouts were somehow flawed.  It was quite a few pages of back and forth between us.  Naturally I felt compelled to counter his absurdity with actual verifiable evidence to the contrary.

I remember the original BAN thread and had posted in it as well.  I remember thinking to myself, "why is this s0br guy standing by and doing nothing while these idiots continue to behave the way they do... it's going to make him and his pool look bad very soon."

Honestly, a part of me feels for the guy... every time he makes an appearance he's attacked.  Of course, if he had been present all along, had not let verifiable idiots speak for him and his pool, and had truly been transparent about his business model it's very likely none of this vitriol against him ever would have happened.  Of course as time has gone on, more and more people join in with the lynch mob carrying their pitchforks and screaming for him to be burned at the stake.

I understand what your saying, and at times feel guilty when I speak when I really should not.  I feel sorry at times for the crap s0br has taken as I know at first he was overwhelmed by what he took on by himself, but just like the heading of this thread, is just asking for trouble.

[remnokc]

holy sh..tuff!! BAN just found two blocks in the last two hours, that makes 5 total in the past two days! woop!