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Author Topic: GAW / Josh Garza discussion Paycoin XPY xpy.io ION ionomy. ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :)  (Read 3197673 times)
jimmothy
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November 26, 2014, 08:41:16 PM
 #1481

If i was mining on a fury @ 1MH - 40w its negative two cents, them charging .08$ for hosting (electric,maintenance and just a fee) it is easy to see negative on the .00018 is the current multipool rate and that will earn .06$ worth of btc, with the .08$ for operating fee it's obvious how you get satoshi.

40w/mh is horrible for scrypt. Alcheminer hardware is less than 9w/mh.

0.009kw * 0.05/kwh * 24 = $0.011/day. What ever happened to the always profitable/reducing fees/huge economies of scale?
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kingcolex
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November 26, 2014, 08:44:24 PM
 #1482

If i was mining on a fury @ 1MH - 40w its negative two cents, them charging .08$ for hosting (electric,maintenance and just a fee) it is easy to see negative on the .00018 is the current multipool rate and that will earn .06$ worth of btc, with the .08$ for operating fee it's obvious how you get satoshi.

40w/mh is horrible for scrypt. Alcheminer hardware is less than 9w/mh.

0.009kw * 0.05/kwh * 24 = $0.011/day. What ever happened to the always profitable/reducing fees/huge economies of scale?
That hasn't happened yet, fees are said to be announced soon but who knows, maintenance fees are always the big part of any cloud mining and with the price of Bitcoin being where it's at it's no surprise ROI isn't happening as quick, this is the same for any miner everywhere except GAW has promised reducing fee's we just have to see when they will reduce, Hashlets are still fairly new it may be a planned quarterly thing, semi-annual or yearly we don't know yet and as i'm sure many are concerned if it will ever happen.














 

 

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kingcolex
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November 26, 2014, 08:45:48 PM
 #1483

Ok, here's one for you. Try persuading the owner of a restaurant that his prices are too high. Chances are you'll be asked to leave.

And that is relevant how exactly? I though we were discussing proof of mining. I'm not trying to tell anyone how much they need to charge for a product or a service.

Guys, stop comparing mining to dining:) My point was that if GAW sells me 100GH of mining power, they should easily (like everybody else that actually mines) be able to show me some proof that my 100GH is even running 24/7. If that 100GH of mining power is not being used but they are charging me daily for electricity and other maintenance ON AN ACTUAL MINER than wouldn't that be fraud?


Ive waited awhile to post here, but have been reading every post since the OP.

@clanbake your comment was too tempting for me not to reply...
Regarding if GAW sold you 100GH and not using it etc. The answer to your question regarding fraud is simple:
Are you still being paid for 100GH of hashing power?
If so, then there is your answer.

Do you know where your gasoline comes from? I bet you dont "care" as long as you get as many gallons as you paid for, and your car drives when you hit the gas pedal.

Has anyone who has bought into GAWs cloud hashing service not been paid the daily BTC that the pool claims were earned?
If GAW is missing payments or not paying their customers at all, then that changes the landscape entirely, but until then, suggestions of "fraud" are alittle extreme IMHO.

This topic is very heated, and its very clear that there are many members on both sides.
I think it would serve the crypto community as a whole if everyone would remain calm and use logic, facts, maturity and tact.

Cheers


But you see, many of them aren't receiving that 100GH of power. They are getting literally 1 satoshi for a MH of power on most of their hashlets. So by your analogy, they are paying for 10 gallons of gas and getting a few fluid ounces in their tank.
Those miners are paying out exactly the rate what pool, the .08$ hasn't gone up it just hasn't decreased yet and bitcoin has gone down.














 

 

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jimmothy
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November 26, 2014, 08:46:44 PM
 #1484

If i was mining on a fury @ 1MH - 40w its negative two cents, them charging .08$ for hosting (electric,maintenance and just a fee) it is easy to see negative on the .00018 is the current multipool rate and that will earn .06$ worth of btc, with the .08$ for operating fee it's obvious how you get satoshi.

40w/mh is horrible for scrypt. Alcheminer hardware is less than 9w/mh.

0.009kw * 0.05/kwh * 24 = $0.011/day. What ever happened to the always profitable/reducing fees/huge economies of scale?
That hasn't happened yet, fees are said to be announced soon but who knows, maintenance fees are always the big part of any cloud mining and with the price of Bitcoin being where it's at it's no surprise ROI isn't happening as quick, this is the same for any miner everywhere except GAW has promised reducing fee's we just have to see when they will reduce, Hashlets are still fairly new it may be a planned quarterly thing, semi-annual or yearly we don't know yet and as i'm sure many are concerned if it will ever happen.

"always profitable" doesn't mean profitable only when GAW decides.
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November 26, 2014, 08:47:17 PM
 #1485

Ok, here's one for you. Try persuading the owner of a restaurant that his prices are too high. Chances are you'll be asked to leave.

And that is relevant how exactly? I though we were discussing proof of mining. I'm not trying to tell anyone how much they need to charge for a product or a service.

Guys, stop comparing mining to dining:) My point was that if GAW sells me 100GH of mining power, they should easily (like everybody else that actually mines) be able to show me some proof that my 100GH is even running 24/7. If that 100GH of mining power is not being used but they are charging me daily for electricity and other maintenance ON AN ACTUAL MINER than wouldn't that be fraud?


Ive waited awhile to post here, but have been reading every post since the OP.

@clanbake your comment was too tempting for me not to reply...
Regarding if GAW sold you 100GH and not using it etc. The answer to your question regarding fraud is simple:
Are you still being paid for 100GH of hashing power?
If so, then there is your answer.

Do you know where your gasoline comes from? I bet you dont "care" as long as you get as many gallons as you paid for, and your car drives when you hit the gas pedal.

Has anyone who has bought into GAWs cloud hashing service not been paid the daily BTC that the pool claims were earned?
If GAW is missing payments or not paying their customers at all, then that changes the landscape entirely, but until then, suggestions of "fraud" are alittle extreme IMHO.

This topic is very heated, and its very clear that there are many members on both sides.
I think it would serve the crypto community as a whole if everyone would remain calm and use logic, facts, maturity and tact.

Cheers


Hmm, of all the posts, this is the one you had to respond to... Smiley

You can compare it to whatever you want, I guess. In the end, if I think Im getting super unleaded but Im only getting unleaded, yea, that's a big red flag. In my case it was more like they cheated at the pump. I paid for 10 dollars worth but only got about 2 dollars worth.

BTW - You should take your own advise, focus on the the logic, facts, and maturity part Smiley

Cheers!
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November 26, 2014, 08:48:21 PM
 #1486

I don't think it's fraud because of the way the terms of service are written. There might be other legal problems with it, but they're pretty upfront about what they could possibly be doing. Direct renting of mining power is only one possibility.

There´s not a snowball´s chance in hell to get a negative
or proforma 1 satoshi yield from mining BTC and/or shitcoins

consistently

Has to be some sort of manipulation if that is claimed.


If i was mining on a fury @ 1MH - 40w its negative two cents, them charging .08$ for hosting (electric,maintenance and just a fee) it is easy to see negative on the .00018 is the current multipool rate and that will earn .06$ worth of btc, with the .08$ for operating fee it's obvious how you get satoshi.

Depends on your power costs. And we didn't by a Fury (which is actually 1.2-1.3 MH/s), we bought this:

Digital Cloud Miner that keeps getting better
will always make money
depreciating costs
obsolete-proof

Fury was obsolete the minute it was released, much worse than Gridseed released months earlier. We are not going to compare hashlets to GPUs or CPUs, are we?

The bottom line is, GAW just recently claimed to have TWICE as much mining income as needed to cover payouts. The reason to NOT follow through with sales claims and keep paying 1 satoshi was not stated. Do you know that reason?

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November 26, 2014, 08:58:51 PM
 #1487

If i was mining on a fury @ 1MH - 40w its negative two cents, them charging .08$ for hosting (electric,maintenance and just a fee) it is easy to see negative on the .00018 is the current multipool rate and that will earn .06$ worth of btc, with the .08$ for operating fee it's obvious how you get satoshi.

40w/mh is horrible for scrypt. Alcheminer hardware is less than 9w/mh.

0.009kw * 0.05/kwh * 24 = $0.011/day. What ever happened to the always profitable/reducing fees/huge economies of scale?
That hasn't happened yet, fees are said to be announced soon but who knows, maintenance fees are always the big part of any cloud mining and with the price of Bitcoin being where it's at it's no surprise ROI isn't happening as quick, this is the same for any miner everywhere except GAW has promised reducing fee's we just have to see when they will reduce, Hashlets are still fairly new it may be a planned quarterly thing, semi-annual or yearly we don't know yet and as i'm sure many are concerned if it will ever happen.

"always profitable" doesn't mean profitable only when GAW decides.
Technically it is profitable with one satoshi your not negative, ROI will just take a very very very long time.














 

 

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jimmothy
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November 26, 2014, 09:02:09 PM
 #1488

Technically it is profitable with one satoshi your not negative, ROI will just take a very very very long time.

ROI =/= profit

If it takes longer than your entire life to break even, it's not profitable.

What you're doing is slowly reducing your loss.
galdur
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November 26, 2014, 09:07:16 PM
 #1489

I´m a GAW basher but not necessarily 100% so
as you may have noticed. I might go back in if they
provided a freakin yield for my investment. What I
like is lending cloud mining operators coin to upgrade
their equipment at 25%/month. I don´t need changing
stories and hassle.

de_ixie
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November 26, 2014, 09:11:20 PM
 #1490

Although a lot of you guys only honor facts, I still want to share some of my random experiences with GAW positive/ negative. I really feel we have to much black<->white thinking in this thread:

A) I bought most of my Zenminer hashpower early August when all this started and since then I got paid every single day. Not a single day missing, not a single payout was lower than expected. I bought their product, they paid me - no emotions here, nothing to discuss, no one at GAW ever scammed me by a single penny

B) I had several disputes/ tickets with GAW about technical problems, not working account fundings, not working withdrawals , Bug abusing etc.... Some of my issues got escalated to their top management. Sometimes we had tough discussions throwing legal threads around but in the end, we always found a fair and suitable solution for both parties. I stayed friendly but demanding in the heat, they stayed friendly and demanding and we could solve even the most muddy situations. GAW always acted very professional and generous on every single management tier.

C) GAW announced a lot of stuff/features in their business plans and not all of them came to reality. This is true e.g. Primes where never able to mine SHA, Primes were never the "most profitable miner" etc etc..., a lot of cool stuff got lost on the road. People bought their products and got dissapointed I can understand that - they really did some mistakes here... they also rushed some updates producing way too much bugs

.... BUT  ~70% of their announcements came to reality and this is more than most other business plans can offer. Look at "business plans" in big cooperates. Leading managers always build unrealisitc cases to secure funds for their ambitious projects. Its sad but this is how it works. "Aim for the sun, land on the moon", Like it or not - the guy with the "realistic" business case will never be able to turn anything into reality

D) I followed  several public discussions on hashtalk.org where different people seriously challenged Josh Garza and his ideas. As long as people follow the basic rules of communication he is open for fruitful discussions. Calling hashtalk.org an overmoderated forum with no possibility to speak out openly is nonsense.

For whom it may concern: Here you can see how I challenge Josh in public on hashtalk.org, I got tons of upvotes, we started discussing, but found no consense... life goes on. Guess what - I was not censored or downvoted or anything for attacking him openly. Just a normal discussion amongst people who exchange ideas

https://hashtalk.org/topic/18215/zenpool-the-world-s-most-profitable-pool/21 (I am to dump to post that link, just scroll down to post 21)

E) I will not comment on whether GAW is mining or not. I just dont know it. There are no facts for/ against that

F) GAW is a startup on top of Crypto - Consider this a double high high high risk/ high reward investment. Get ready to loose it all or gain big

Hope that helps some individuals in assessing GAW

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bitcoinnoisseur
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November 26, 2014, 09:23:23 PM
 #1491

Although a lot of you guys only honor facts, I still want to share some of my random experiences with GAW positive/ negative. I really feel we have to much black<->white thinking in this thread:

A) I bought most of my Zenminer hashpower early August when all this started and since then I got paid every single day. Not a single day missing, not a single payout was lower than expected. I bought their product, they paid me - no emotions here, nothing to discuss, no one at GAW ever scammed me by a single penny

B) I had several disputes/ tickets with GAW about technical problems, not working account fundings, not working withdrawals , Bug abusing etc.... Some of my issues got escalated to their top management. Sometimes we had tough discussions throwing legal threads around but in the end, we always found a fair and suitable solution for both parties. I stayed friendly but demanding in the heat, they stayed friendly and demanding and we could solve even the most muddy situations. GAW always acted very professional and generous on every single management tier.

C) GAW announced a lot of stuff/features in their business plans and not all of them came to reality. This is true e.g. Primes where never able to mine SHA, Primes were never the "most profitable miner" etc etc..., a lot of cool stuff got lost on the road. People bought their products and got dissapointed I can understand that - they really did some mistakes here...

.... BUT  ~70% of their announcements came to reality and this is more than most other business plans can offer. Look at "business plans" in big cooperates. Leading managers always build unrealisitc cases to secure funds for their ambitious projects. Its sad but this is how it works. Like it or not - the guy with the "realistic" business case will never be able to turn anything into reality

D) I followed  several public discussion on hashtalk.org where different people seriously challenged Josh Garza and his ideas. As long as people follow the basic rules of communication he is open for fruitful discussions. Calling hashtalk.org an overmoderated forum with no possibility to speak out openly is nonsense.

For whom it may concern: Here you can see how I challenge Josh in public on hashtalk.org, I got tons of upvotes, we started discussing, but found no consense... life goes on. Guess what - I was not censored or downvoted or anything for attacking him openly. Just a normal discussion amongst people who exchange ideas

https://hashtalk.org/topic/18215/zenpool-the-world-s-most-profitable-pool/21 (I am to dump to post that link, just scroll down to post 21)

E) I will not comment on whether GAW is mining or not. I just dont know it. There are no facts for/ against that

Hope that helps some individuals in assessing GAW

Nonsense? I was instantly banned and my post was instantly removed on HT when it was a repost of what rootdood wrote here about the Zenpool negotiations being final yet Josh was not going to reinstate higher payouts yet because he was waiting for a strategic time. So you are going to tell me that is nonsense. How dare you? And i speak for many many others that were banned for merely questioning GAW's methods and procedures. So do not come in here talking garbage just because you got away with a few posts over there. If you honestly believe it's nonsense you are quite obviously delusional.
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November 26, 2014, 09:23:55 PM
 #1492

If i was mining on a fury @ 1MH - 40w its negative two cents, them charging .08$ for hosting (electric,maintenance and just a fee) it is easy to see negative on the .00018 is the current multipool rate and that will earn .06$ worth of btc, with the .08$ for operating fee it's obvious how you get satoshi.

40w/mh is horrible for scrypt. Alcheminer hardware is less than 9w/mh.

0.009kw * 0.05/kwh * 24 = $0.011/day. What ever happened to the always profitable/reducing fees/huge economies of scale?
That hasn't happened yet, fees are said to be announced soon but who knows, maintenance fees are always the big part of any cloud mining and with the price of Bitcoin being where it's at it's no surprise ROI isn't happening as quick, this is the same for any miner everywhere except GAW has promised reducing fee's we just have to see when they will reduce, Hashlets are still fairly new it may be a planned quarterly thing, semi-annual or yearly we don't know yet and as i'm sure many are concerned if it will ever happen.

"always profitable" doesn't mean profitable only when GAW decides.
Technically it is profitable with one satoshi your not negative, ROI will just take a very very very long time.

We call that BAIT and SWITCH.
de_ixie
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November 26, 2014, 09:32:11 PM
 #1493

Although a lot of you guys only honor facts, I still want to share some of my random experiences with GAW positive/ negative. I really feel we have to much black<->white thinking in this thread:

A) I bought most of my Zenminer hashpower early August when all this started and since then I got paid every single day. Not a single day missing, not a single payout was lower than expected. I bought their product, they paid me - no emotions here, nothing to discuss, no one at GAW ever scammed me by a single penny

B) I had several disputes/ tickets with GAW about technical problems, not working account fundings, not working withdrawals , Bug abusing etc.... Some of my issues got escalated to their top management. Sometimes we had tough discussions throwing legal threads around but in the end, we always found a fair and suitable solution for both parties. I stayed friendly but demanding in the heat, they stayed friendly and demanding and we could solve even the most muddy situations. GAW always acted very professional and generous on every single management tier.

C) GAW announced a lot of stuff/features in their business plans and not all of them came to reality. This is true e.g. Primes where never able to mine SHA, Primes were never the "most profitable miner" etc etc..., a lot of cool stuff got lost on the road. People bought their products and got dissapointed I can understand that - they really did some mistakes here...

.... BUT  ~70% of their announcements came to reality and this is more than most other business plans can offer. Look at "business plans" in big cooperates. Leading managers always build unrealisitc cases to secure funds for their ambitious projects. Its sad but this is how it works. Like it or not - the guy with the "realistic" business case will never be able to turn anything into reality

D) I followed  several public discussion on hashtalk.org where different people seriously challenged Josh Garza and his ideas. As long as people follow the basic rules of communication he is open for fruitful discussions. Calling hashtalk.org an overmoderated forum with no possibility to speak out openly is nonsense.

For whom it may concern: Here you can see how I challenge Josh in public on hashtalk.org, I got tons of upvotes, we started discussing, but found no consense... life goes on. Guess what - I was not censored or downvoted or anything for attacking him openly. Just a normal discussion amongst people who exchange ideas

https://hashtalk.org/topic/18215/zenpool-the-world-s-most-profitable-pool/21 (I am to dump to post that link, just scroll down to post 21)

E) I will not comment on whether GAW is mining or not. I just dont know it. There are no facts for/ against that

Hope that helps some individuals in assessing GAW

Nonsense? I was instantly banned and my post was instantly removed on HT when it was a repost of what rootdood wrote here about the Zenpool negotiations being final yet Josh was not going to reinstate higher payouts yet because he was waiting for a strategic time. So you are going to tell me that is nonsense. How dare you? And i speak for many many others that were banned for merely questioning GAW's methods and procedures. So do not come in here talking garbage just because you got away with a few posts over there. If you honestly believe it's nonsense you are quite obviously delusional.

I am sorry what happened to you and/ or maybe others. I can only speak from my experience. I never got banned or censored for questioning GAW on hashtalk.org

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November 26, 2014, 09:43:31 PM
 #1494

Technically it is profitable with one satoshi your not negative, ROI will just take a very very very long time.

Bingo. So now I hope we can agree that sales claims like that are at the very least deceitful. Which leads to understandable skepticism towards PayCoin et al. For example do you think everybody should be happy and cheerful if the promised $20 price point takes "a very very very long time" to achieve?

There is creative marketing and then there is what GAW is doing, which I don't have a polite word for.

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November 26, 2014, 09:54:47 PM
 #1495

Nonsense? I was instantly banned and my post was instantly removed on HT...
Of course you were banned and you know why. Smiley I can only congratulate the admin who decided to remove you from hashtalk for good. The best part is that you complained to Josh about it when he was here...


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November 26, 2014, 10:00:14 PM
 #1496

Technically it is profitable with one satoshi your not negative, ROI will just take a very very very long time.

Bingo. So now I hope we can agree that sales claims like that are at the very least deceitful. Which leads to understandable skepticism towards PayCoin et al. For example do you think everybody should be happy and cheerful if the promised $20 price point takes "a very very very long time" to achieve?

There is creative marketing and then there is what GAW is doing, which I don't have a polite word for.
No it seems like people are blaming the price of bitcoin on GAW, they had their maintenance at 8 cents and if bitcoin was at 1000$ it would payout 4 cents after bitcoin and ROI in 175 days at current price, but since Bitcoin has stayed at a lower price than expected it isn't Gaws fault, could they change the fee's ? Yes, and they say they're working on it but it has to be a very sure thing, imagine they change their fees to 4 cents people are decently happy temporarily and this is what i expect to happen.
 Although i want to get speculative and say what if bitcoin skyrockets to 1000$ and payout it 8 cents a day after maintenance and ROI is expected in less than 3 months and people pour in money for investments, then after 2 week bitcoin crashes to 300$ people would rage at Gaw because they make nothing again, obviously people blame the cloud mining company for BTC not being worth what they want and not making enough.














 

 

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suchmoon
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November 26, 2014, 10:03:17 PM
 #1497

A) I bought most of my Zenminer hashpower early August when all this started and since then I got paid every single day. Not a single day missing, not a single payout was lower than expected. I bought their product, they paid me - no emotions here, nothing to discuss, no one at GAW ever scammed me by a single penny

[...]

D) I followed  several public discussions on hashtalk.org where different people seriously challenged Josh Garza and his ideas. As long as people follow the basic rules of communication he is open for fruitful discussions. Calling hashtalk.org an overmoderated forum with no possibility to speak out openly is nonsense.

For whom it may concern: Here you can see how I challenge Josh in public on hashtalk.org, I got tons of upvotes, we started discussing, but found no consense... life goes on. Guess what - I was not censored or downvoted or anything for attacking him openly. Just a normal discussion amongst people who exchange ideas

https://hashtalk.org/topic/18215/zenpool-the-world-s-most-profitable-pool/21 (I am to dump to post that link, just scroll down to post 21)


Because of A) you're quite obviously in a position that nobody who invested in October or later can ever be in. So you need to step back and look at it from that point of view if you really want a full picture.

I appreciate what you're doing on HT. That doesn't change the fact that many users were banned for no obvious reason and many others are free to show disrespect and post off topic - the only two rules on HT, right? - without any consequences, depending entirely on "which side" they're on. That place is not healthy. Good for you that you found a way to survive it, however this should not be a prerequisite for a customer seeking answers or assistance.

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November 26, 2014, 10:06:19 PM
 #1498

I thought I heard a lonely little cricket chirping in here. Did anyone else?
suchmoon
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poor and pathetic mr self important high horseman


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November 26, 2014, 10:14:30 PM
 #1499

Technically it is profitable with one satoshi your not negative, ROI will just take a very very very long time.

Bingo. So now I hope we can agree that sales claims like that are at the very least deceitful. Which leads to understandable skepticism towards PayCoin et al. For example do you think everybody should be happy and cheerful if the promised $20 price point takes "a very very very long time" to achieve?

There is creative marketing and then there is what GAW is doing, which I don't have a polite word for.
No it seems like people are blaming the price of bitcoin on GAW, they had their maintenance at 8 cents and if bitcoin was at 1000$ it would payout 4 cents after bitcoin and ROI in 175 days at current price, but since Bitcoin has stayed at a lower price than expected it isn't Gaws fault, could they change the fee's ? Yes, and they say they're working on it but it has to be a very sure thing, imagine they change their fees to 4 cents people are decently happy temporarily and this is what i expect to happen.
 Although i want to get speculative and say what if bitcoin skyrockets to 1000$ and payout it 8 cents a day after maintenance and ROI is expected in less than 3 months and people pour in money for investments, then after 2 week bitcoin crashes to 300$ people would rage at Gaw because they make nothing again, obviously people blame the cloud mining company for BTC not being worth what they want and not making enough.

And you seem to be blaming Bitcoin price for GAW's misleading marketing Smiley

So how about PayCoin - do those claims depend on some external variable as well? Should we know about it before we semi-voluntarily invest into PayCoin? Do you feel you are getting the fullest possible disclosure to make a good investment decision?

kingcolex
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Anonymous bitcoin mixer


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November 26, 2014, 10:19:26 PM
 #1500

Technically it is profitable with one satoshi your not negative, ROI will just take a very very very long time.

Bingo. So now I hope we can agree that sales claims like that are at the very least deceitful. Which leads to understandable skepticism towards PayCoin et al. For example do you think everybody should be happy and cheerful if the promised $20 price point takes "a very very very long time" to achieve?

There is creative marketing and then there is what GAW is doing, which I don't have a polite word for.
No it seems like people are blaming the price of bitcoin on GAW, they had their maintenance at 8 cents and if bitcoin was at 1000$ it would payout 4 cents after bitcoin and ROI in 175 days at current price, but since Bitcoin has stayed at a lower price than expected it isn't Gaws fault, could they change the fee's ? Yes, and they say they're working on it but it has to be a very sure thing, imagine they change their fees to 4 cents people are decently happy temporarily and this is what i expect to happen.
 Although i want to get speculative and say what if bitcoin skyrockets to 1000$ and payout it 8 cents a day after maintenance and ROI is expected in less than 3 months and people pour in money for investments, then after 2 week bitcoin crashes to 300$ people would rage at Gaw because they make nothing again, obviously people blame the cloud mining company for BTC not being worth what they want and not making enough.

And you seem to be blaming Bitcoin price for GAW's misleading marketing Smiley

So how about PayCoin - do those claims depend on some external variable as well? Should we know about it before we semi-voluntarily invest into PayCoin? Do you feel you are getting the fullest possible disclosure to make a good investment decision?
What I am saying I don't think it's misleading but over assuming or a misunderstanding. I am not Gaw and I don't know what there going to do but what I am trying to do is bring some logic and discussion into a riot. I think nobody should invest into PayCoin without expecting there to be issues as it again an unproven crypto.














 

 

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