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Author Topic: GAW / Josh Garza discussion Paycoin XPY xpy.io ION ionomy. ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :)  (Read 3208541 times)
dyask
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November 27, 2014, 12:05:18 AM
 #1521

So pretty sure they have BTC issues again.

Lots of people had authy issues and couldn't withdraw for a few days. Now, try to withdraw my BTC and hasn't been touched in 24 hours.

I mean how long does it take to click approve??

I've never had so much trouble withdrawing money from anywhere. They send me an email saying this is an industry norm, but no where else have I ever had holds placed on my account like this. No where.

Edit - what Are they going to do when everyone wants to dump their pat coin?'

For the record, the only problem I've had with withdraws is when the ZenCloud just won't process withdraws and you have to try again and again.   However, forcing people to use 2FA is a very bad move on their part.   clould.zenminer.com shows they don't know much about building a nice web site that works well for people around the world.   I expect there will be a lot more mishaps with PayBase or whatever we have to work through.     

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November 27, 2014, 12:17:13 AM
 #1522

Although a lot of you guys only honor facts, I still want to share some of my random experiences with GAW positive/ negative. I really feel we have to much black<->white thinking in this thread:

A) I bought most of my Zenminer hashpower early August when all this started and since then I got paid every single day. Not a single day missing, not a single payout was lower than expected. I bought their product, they paid me - no emotions here, nothing to discuss, no one at GAW ever scammed me by a single penny

B) I had several disputes/ tickets with GAW about technical problems, not working account fundings, not working withdrawals , Bug abusing etc.... Some of my issues got escalated to their top management. Sometimes we had tough discussions throwing legal threads around but in the end, we always found a fair and suitable solution for both parties. I stayed friendly but demanding in the heat, they stayed friendly and demanding and we could solve even the most muddy situations. GAW always acted very professional and generous on every single management tier.

C) GAW announced a lot of stuff/features in their business plans and not all of them came to reality. This is true e.g. Primes where never able to mine SHA, Primes were never the "most profitable miner" etc etc..., a lot of cool stuff got lost on the road. People bought their products and got dissapointed I can understand that - they really did some mistakes here...

.... BUT  ~70% of their announcements came to reality and this is more than most other business plans can offer. Look at "business plans" in big cooperates. Leading managers always build unrealisitc cases to secure funds for their ambitious projects. Its sad but this is how it works. Like it or not - the guy with the "realistic" business case will never be able to turn anything into reality

D) I followed  several public discussion on hashtalk.org where different people seriously challenged Josh Garza and his ideas. As long as people follow the basic rules of communication he is open for fruitful discussions. Calling hashtalk.org an overmoderated forum with no possibility to speak out openly is nonsense.

For whom it may concern: Here you can see how I challenge Josh in public on hashtalk.org, I got tons of upvotes, we started discussing, but found no consense... life goes on. Guess what - I was not censored or downvoted or anything for attacking him openly. Just a normal discussion amongst people who exchange ideas

https://hashtalk.org/topic/18215/zenpool-the-world-s-most-profitable-pool/21 (I am to dump to post that link, just scroll down to post 21)

E) I will not comment on whether GAW is mining or not. I just dont know it. There are no facts for/ against that

Hope that helps some individuals in assessing GAW

Nonsense? I was instantly banned and my post was instantly removed on HT when it was a repost of what rootdood wrote here about the Zenpool negotiations being final yet Josh was not going to reinstate higher payouts yet because he was waiting for a strategic time. So you are going to tell me that is nonsense. How dare you? And i speak for many many others that were banned for merely questioning GAW's methods and procedures. So do not come in here talking garbage just because you got away with a few posts over there. If you honestly believe it's nonsense you are quite obviously delusional.

I am sorry what happened to you and/ or maybe others. I can only speak from my experience. I never got banned or censored for questioning GAW on hashtalk.org

I was banned for trying to discuss the 25 prime mistake when Josh blamed it on the "exploiters" and took no blame what so ever for the whole debacle that followed. Which in my mind was unlawful. To prevent withdrawl and clawback funds without due process is stealing.
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November 27, 2014, 12:23:01 AM
 #1523


I was banned for trying to discuss the 25 prime mistake when Josh blamed it on the "exploiters" and took no blame what so ever for the whole debacle that followed. Which in my mind was unlawful. To prevent withdrawl and clawback funds without due process is stealing.

And getting something that you not pay for 25MH instead of 1MH and selling that without reporting the mistake is what?
jimmothy
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November 27, 2014, 12:24:26 AM
 #1524


I was banned for trying to discuss the 25 prime mistake when Josh blamed it on the "exploiters" and took no blame what so ever for the whole debacle that followed. Which in my mind was unlawful. To prevent withdrawl and clawback funds without due process is stealing.

And getting something that you not pay for 25MH instead of 1MH and selling that without reporting the mistake is what?

Completely legal.

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered-merchandise
welchy8764
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November 27, 2014, 12:29:42 AM
 #1525


I was banned for trying to discuss the 25 prime mistake when Josh blamed it on the "exploiters" and took no blame what so ever for the whole debacle that followed. Which in my mind was unlawful. To prevent withdrawl and clawback funds without due process is stealing.

And getting something that you not pay for 25MH instead of 1MH and selling that without reporting the mistake is what?

I did not profit from this. I only pointed out that his bad decisions and company poor execution caused this whole problem. Two wrongs don't make a right. GAW basicly stole back the money they felt was taken from them. That's for a court to decide. In the mean time many others were impacted without cause. This whole mess can be blamed on 1 person.. Guess who?
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November 27, 2014, 12:32:05 AM
 #1526


I was banned for trying to discuss the 25 prime mistake when Josh blamed it on the "exploiters" and took no blame what so ever for the whole debacle that followed. Which in my mind was unlawful. To prevent withdrawl and clawback funds without due process is stealing.

And getting something that you not pay for 25MH instead of 1MH and selling that without reporting the mistake is what?

Completely legal.

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered-merchandise

So you would also support the people running bots that quickly buy hashlets when anyone makes a pricing mistake.   That is also completely legal.    But it is also wrong.   I have many time posted that GAW not fixing that problem is wrong and even Josh has replied to my posts but I still haven't been banned.   Stealing though is wrong, no matter how it happens.  

I completely disagree with GAW here.   They should fix the mis-sales just like they fixed their problem when they sent out the wrong keys.  
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November 27, 2014, 12:41:49 AM
 #1527


I was banned for trying to discuss the 25 prime mistake when Josh blamed it on the "exploiters" and took no blame what so ever for the whole debacle that followed. Which in my mind was unlawful. To prevent withdrawl and clawback funds without due process is stealing.

And getting something that you not pay for 25MH instead of 1MH and selling that without reporting the mistake is what?

Completely legal.

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered-merchandise

Well the link above talks about unordered merchandise it does not say anything about wrongly delivered merchandise. So for me that does not apply.
welchy8764
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November 27, 2014, 12:42:19 AM
 #1528


I was banned for trying to discuss the 25 prime mistake when Josh blamed it on the "exploiters" and took no blame what so ever for the whole debacle that followed. Which in my mind was unlawful. To prevent withdrawl and clawback funds without due process is stealing.

And getting something that you not pay for 25MH instead of 1MH and selling that without reporting the mistake is what?

Completely legal.

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered-merchandise

So you would also support the people running bots that quickly buy hashlets when anyone makes a pricing mistake.   That is also completely legal.    But it is also wrong.   I have many time posted that GAW not fixing that problem is wrong and even Josh has replied to my posts but I still haven't been banned.   Stealing though is wrong, no matter how it happens.  

I completely disagree with GAW here.   They should fix the mis-sales just like they fixed their problem when they sent out the wrong keys.  

I think GAW has 1st dibs on anything put on the market place and purchase grossly under-priced haslets. There have been many complaints of people pricing to low by mistake and before they can remove(few seconds) someone purchased. That was even after the solution was put in place for the Bots. I hate to be cynical but that is the only answer that makes sense to me. why would they not correct the issue? Its been an issue since market opened.
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November 27, 2014, 12:43:11 AM
 #1529

So you would also support the people running bots that quickly buy hashlets when anyone makes a pricing mistake.   That is also completely legal.    But it is also wrong.   I have many time posted that GAW not fixing that problem is wrong and even Josh has replied to my posts but I still haven't been banned.   Stealing though is wrong, no matter how it happens.  

I completely disagree with GAW here.   They should fix the mis-sales just like they fixed their problem when they sent out the wrong keys.  

There's nothing wrong with bots. They exist on practically every exchange in any market.

The problem is like you said, GAW's misleading system is causing people to make mistakes.

This could be easily fixed by changing it to $/unit and/or by adding bid orders.
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November 27, 2014, 12:45:07 AM
 #1530

Well the link above talks about unordered merchandise it does not say anything about wrongly delivered merchandise. So for me that does not apply.

The thing is it's not for us/GAW to decide. If they feel they were defrauded, they can take it to court.

GAW is not the judge/jury/executioner and has no right to rip funds from peoples bank accounts without authorization.
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November 27, 2014, 12:56:36 AM
 #1531

Well the link above talks about unordered merchandise it does not say anything about wrongly delivered merchandise. So for me that does not apply.

The thing is it's not for us/GAW to decide. If they feel they were defrauded, they can take it to court.

GAW is not the judge/jury/executioner and has no right to rip funds from peoples bank accounts without authorization.

So you find no fault with the people that where defrauding the system? If that is the case I question your ethics.
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November 27, 2014, 12:58:10 AM
 #1532

So you would also support the people running bots that quickly buy hashlets when anyone makes a pricing mistake.   That is also completely legal.    But it is also wrong.   I have many time posted that GAW not fixing that problem is wrong and even Josh has replied to my posts but I still haven't been banned.   Stealing though is wrong, no matter how it happens.  

I completely disagree with GAW here.   They should fix the mis-sales just like they fixed their problem when they sent out the wrong keys.  

There's nothing wrong with bots. They exist on practically every exchange in any market.

The problem is like you said, GAW's misleading system is causing people to make mistakes.

This could be easily fixed by changing it to $/unit and/or by adding bid orders.

There is also nothing wrong with disallowing bots and banning accounts that use bots when bots are not allowed.    Wink
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November 27, 2014, 01:08:51 AM
 #1533


I was banned for trying to discuss the 25 prime mistake when Josh blamed it on the "exploiters" and took no blame what so ever for the whole debacle that followed. Which in my mind was unlawful. To prevent withdrawl and clawback funds without due process is stealing.

And getting something that you not pay for 25MH instead of 1MH and selling that without reporting the mistake is what?

A lot of people reported it to the re-sellers and were told it was a gift or something like that? I do not see some of those re-sellers on there anymore.

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November 27, 2014, 01:11:02 AM
 #1534


I was banned for trying to discuss the 25 prime mistake when Josh blamed it on the "exploiters" and took no blame what so ever for the whole debacle that followed. Which in my mind was unlawful. To prevent withdrawl and clawback funds without due process is stealing.

And getting something that you not pay for 25MH instead of 1MH and selling that without reporting the mistake is what?

Completely legal.

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered-merchandise

Well the link above talks about unordered merchandise it does not say anything about wrongly delivered merchandise. So for me that does not apply.

....

Quote
Q. Am I obligated to return or pay for merchandise I never ordered?
A. No. If you receive merchandise that you didn’t order, you have a legal right to keep it as a free gift

bitgeek part 2?

jimmothy
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November 27, 2014, 01:15:34 AM
 #1535

There is also nothing wrong with disallowing bots and banning accounts that use bots when bots are not allowed.    Wink

IMO there is something wrong with stealing customers money/assets because they broke an arbitrary rule.

So you find no fault with the people that where defrauding the system? If that is the case I question your ethics.

My opinion is that it was unethical for people to cash out on GAW's mistake but likely not illegal.

GAW's unauthorized charges were unethical and most likely illegal.
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November 27, 2014, 01:20:12 AM
 #1536


I was banned for trying to discuss the 25 prime mistake when Josh blamed it on the "exploiters" and took no blame what so ever for the whole debacle that followed. Which in my mind was unlawful. To prevent withdrawl and clawback funds without due process is stealing.

And getting something that you not pay for 25MH instead of 1MH and selling that without reporting the mistake is what?

Completely legal.

http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered-merchandise

Well the link above talks about unordered merchandise it does not say anything about wrongly delivered merchandise. So for me that does not apply.

....

Quote
Q. Am I obligated to return or pay for merchandise I never ordered?
A. No. If you receive merchandise that you didn’t order, you have a legal right to keep it as a free gift

bitgeek part 2?

The people that ordered 1MH did order something and received something else. The above document is about unordered goods.
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November 27, 2014, 01:24:16 AM
 #1537

Although a lot of you guys only honor facts, I still want to share some of my random experiences with GAW positive/ negative. I really feel we have to much black<->white thinking in this thread:

A) I bought most of my Zenminer hashpower early August when all this started and since then I got paid every single day. Not a single day missing, not a single payout was lower than expected. I bought their product, they paid me - no emotions here, nothing to discuss, no one at GAW ever scammed me by a single penny

B) I had several disputes/ tickets with GAW about technical problems, not working account fundings, not working withdrawals , Bug abusing etc.... Some of my issues got escalated to their top management. Sometimes we had tough discussions throwing legal threads around but in the end, we always found a fair and suitable solution for both parties. I stayed friendly but demanding in the heat, they stayed friendly and demanding and we could solve even the most muddy situations. GAW always acted very professional and generous on every single management tier.

C) GAW announced a lot of stuff/features in their business plans and not all of them came to reality. This is true e.g. Primes where never able to mine SHA, Primes were never the "most profitable miner" etc etc..., a lot of cool stuff got lost on the road. People bought their products and got dissapointed I can understand that - they really did some mistakes here... they also rushed some updates producing way too much bugs

.... BUT  ~70% of their announcements came to reality and this is more than most other business plans can offer. Look at "business plans" in big cooperates. Leading managers always build unrealisitc cases to secure funds for their ambitious projects. Its sad but this is how it works. "Aim for the sun, land on the moon", Like it or not - the guy with the "realistic" business case will never be able to turn anything into reality

D) I followed  several public discussions on hashtalk.org where different people seriously challenged Josh Garza and his ideas. As long as people follow the basic rules of communication he is open for fruitful discussions. Calling hashtalk.org an overmoderated forum with no possibility to speak out openly is nonsense.

For whom it may concern: Here you can see how I challenge Josh in public on hashtalk.org, I got tons of upvotes, we started discussing, but found no consense... life goes on. Guess what - I was not censored or downvoted or anything for attacking him openly. Just a normal discussion amongst people who exchange ideas

https://hashtalk.org/topic/18215/zenpool-the-world-s-most-profitable-pool/21 (I am to dump to post that link, just scroll down to post 21)

E) I will not comment on whether GAW is mining or not. I just dont know it. There are no facts for/ against that

F) GAW is a startup on top of Crypto - Consider this a double high high high risk/ high reward investment. Get ready to loose it all or gain big

Hope that helps some individuals in assessing GAW

Its refreshing to hear both sides of experiences with this company.
Im sure there are many customers who have had similar satisfaction.

There is risk in any form of business. Hell, there is risk with jogging around the block...
Im sure many of us here have lost a few BTC investing in various alt coins.

Investing in GAW or any other company in or out of this sector, involves risk.
Some people have a hard time grasping the reality of personal responsibility.

I invested in BTC for the first time in 2011 and had a decent amount of my coins swallowed in the Mt Gox blackhole.
It sucked, but thats part of doing business in a high risk, infantile industry.

I truly hope those who have invested in this company make money. Its for the greater good of crypto in general...
Massive public adoption is the end goal and i hope this isnt going to be another black eye for the industry.
Im not sure we can afford to many more major setbacks.
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November 27, 2014, 01:47:00 AM
 #1538


A. As far as this and any other web forum is concerned, I am present and acting as a private individual who happens to also be a citizen of the US.

I never suggested otherwise.  And I don't recall your citizenship status being questioned or pertinent to the discussion at hand.


B. I have never accused anyone OTHER than GAW/Zen and its "CEO" of anything without having more than enough proof to back up my individual position. Seriously, I have a life and multiple businesses to run myself so why would I waist my time and that of others if I didn't have the proof and other resources to backup my claims? I do not need the attention or drama, but if I do not speak up, exercise my rights, and file (along side others) the appropriate complaints with the proper authorities against those who I believe wish to defraud and degrade the evolving technological business sector, then morally I am no better than those I believe should be held accountable.

You seem to be wanting very badly to make a statement about your rights and ability to make complaints to various agencies.  Good for you.  You won't find where I have ever suggested otherwise.  Your above paragraph sounds like you think you might be being prevented from somehow exercising those rights, but you don't say how and by whom.


C. I have never claimed to be an attorney or act as a legal authority on any specific subject. I have my own legal representation I pay handsomely for such matters. With that said, I am college educated and do have over 18 years of global (US, HK, DE, AU, an UK) corporate business experience with a focus on technology, IP, and contract law compliance. If some of the language and references I use are too full of "legalities" for you, then I am sorry. Given the topic of this discussion, it is what it is. What I can do is apologize for any missed typos in advance since I am often doing multiple things at once and do not have the time to run everything through a spell/grammar checker first.

I didn't ask for your CV.  I really don't care.  Your posting that looks to me like arguing from authority.

I don't think you're posting too many legal terms. Not enough, in fact. Defined by actual chapter and verse codes and regulations, and your layman's opinion how how an actor meets the elements of whatever crime you think they may have committed.

What you are posting is a bunch "legal-sounding" terms.  As below:

Now, you want case law and other references to how things are changing here in the US regarding Ponzi schemes and those who are complacent and/or unjustly benefiting from the continuation of these schemes (or the fallout)? OK, here are a few...

Let's start with Florida:

Sales of chains or pyramid schemes.  People who sell shady deals should be prosecuted.

Now, jump across the country to here in California where this "both sides of the coin" paper offers plenty of reference content:
http://www.theponzibook.com/CBLP_2012_Liabilitiy_of_Professionals_Phelps.pdf

Lawyers and accountants of Ponzi schemes. They should be prosecuted


Banks of Ponzi schemes. They should be prosecuted

None of those three links above address your post here:

To those who say they have ROI'd once or many times over and/or are "smiling all the way to the bank", please by all means, continue with this expressed stance and make yourselves known in favor of this operation. This will give the regulators the info they need to add you as a willing collaborator - after the fact - if they choose to go that route. Remember, the first 2-3 tiers of any alleged Ponzi scheme requires some of the early players to make money in order to [help] draw in new investors. If lawfully unaware the scheme beforehand, no worries. However, continuing to support that scheme after being notified of the potential and likelihood of it being a Ponzi situation opens those collaborating with the source facilitating the scheme up to liability as well. Just saying...

Bold items are significant.  In the first one, you clearly suggest that somebody who has reached ROI and posts about it may be added as a "willing collaborator" in your words.

None of the above three links you presented offer any such interpretation, and are limited to those involved with a Ponzi in a professional capacity, like a banker, accountant, or attorney.

In the second one, you offer up some idea of being "notified" and how support (assume that you mean by posting here) would create some legal liability.

I ask again, what defines "notified"?  You surely don't expect that posting on some internet forum is any kind of legally valid notification or service, do you?

How could a simple customer, who happen to make posts on the internet, become legally liable, and for what exactly?  Please elaborate.
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November 27, 2014, 02:15:30 AM
 #1539

There is also nothing wrong with disallowing bots and banning accounts that use bots when bots are not allowed.    Wink

You realize who you're arguing with? It looks like he's against every cloud mining besides his.

(from another thread)

Dont confuse Jimothy & Puppet as idiot. They are from HaveLock/AMhash trying to switch people to that service, though it is more than assured to lose your money with that notorious Chinese cartel.

ROFL. Ive been accused of many things, but being a shill for havelock or AM(hash), thats definitely a new one!
Why not cryptx while you're at it?

(I would lie if I said it didnt apply to jimmothy though).

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November 27, 2014, 02:26:19 AM
 #1540

 Interesting... Grin

https://hashtalk.org/topic/19837/announcing-paybase?utm_source=Newsletter+List&utm_campaign=3d1752486b-Announcing-PayBase&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ec90950adf-3d1752486b-134526457&mc_cid=3d1752486b&mc_eid=fad8effee4

I guess that everybody saw that already, but just in case...What do you think... Huh

ZiG
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