ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It

[reactor]

Wouldn't potential investors dilute AM-share profits/dividends? Or is this a good thing (stability, bigger ventures,...)?

Depends on what they are investing in.  Right now the BTC community sees little reason to invest in AM because they basically aren't performing, so curious to see why others would pile money into this venture right now.

The BTC community is incredibly short-sighted. Investors are called investors for a reason. They look beyond a week.

A lot of folks in this community look beyond a week as well.  Falling dividends, failed gen2 hardware attempt, nothing but future dates for gen3 (so kinda like KNC, it's a plan with some dates attached as of right now, just not selling pre-orders), and no comment on the liquid cooling business.  There is a theoretical limit on how much folks are investing in this death-spiral to the bottom that we all know and love as mining, if folks like KNC or even CoinTerra manage to start rolling out 2TH+ devices that's about the end of any guesstimate for network speed or ROI on hardware. 

Long-term => we're facing the brink when the block reward halves again, but long before that we're going to get to the point that basically only the vendors can afford mining equipment anymore because there will be no room for margin.  When everything on the market produces negative ROI, people will stop buying.  At the end of the day, people will stop "investing" too because in the long-term there aren't any real benefits to keeping money in a venture that is continually depreciating.  Yes there may be a bump up in however many months it takes FC and crew to release more hardware or capture more of the network hashrate, but most folks who paid into AM shares likely won't even get the fiat value of their original purchase back, even with dividends included.  Sad facts.

So yes, folks in the community can be short-sighted, but long-term there aren't many good reasons to keep cash in anything but BTC.  You can liquidate immediately, costs zero power to maintain, you can trade and play the market to possibly profit, and you aren't starting at net negative (some people will call it sunk costs) to attempt to earn your money back while a vendor profits immediately.  Believe me, as someone who owns AM shares I'd love to see them rise from the ashes and become a market force again, but I have next to zero faith in this happening.  Like playing the lottery, I have my tickets, hope they pay off one day.  But not counting on it.

[Lohoris]

If I make a money printing machine, why would I sell it for less than the money it can print?

1. because usually "money now" is better than "money later" (obviously depends on how much money now, how much money later and how much later)
2. because that machine requires mantainance and maybe you don't want to bother with that if you have an alternative
3. because just selling the machine is usually much much much more simpler on a bureocratic perspective, than "creating money"

[muyuu]

If I make a money printing machine, why would I sell it for less than the money it can print?

1. because usually "money now" is better than "money later" (obviously depends on how much money now, how much money later and how much later)
2. because that machine requires mantainance and maybe you don't want to bother with that if you have an alternative
3. because just selling the machine is usually much much much more simpler on a bureocratic perspective, than "creating money"

Also, rather than money later it's "maybe" money later, at an uncertain amount and valuation.

[aahzmundus]

Who is Allied Control, and why does CNN know more about them then I do... -_-

http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2013/12/17/bitcoin-mine/

[Pompobit]

Who is Allied Control, and why does CNN know more about them then I do... -_-

http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2013/12/17/bitcoin-mine/

it seems like the asic miner mining farm

[aahzmundus]

it seems like the asic miner mining farm

That or a franchise... I only know of Bitfountain and Asicminer, should we as investors no more about these other entities?

[ujka]

it seems like the asic miner mining farm

That or a franchise... I only know of Bitfountain and Asicminer, should we as investors no more about these other entities?

Isnt that the same mining farm as in
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=346134.0

[ning]

it seems like the asic miner mining farm

That or a franchise... I only know of Bitfountain and Asicminer, should we as investors no more about these other entities?

Isnt that the same mining farm as in
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=346134.0

The way the photos are taken is quite differently.

[empoweoqwj]

Wouldn't potential investors dilute AM-share profits/dividends? Or is this a good thing (stability, bigger ventures,...)?

Depends on what they are investing in.  Right now the BTC community sees little reason to invest in AM because they basically aren't performing, so curious to see why others would pile money into this venture right now.

The BTC community is incredibly short-sighted. Investors are called investors for a reason. They look beyond a week.

A lot of folks in this community look beyond a week as well.  Falling dividends, failed gen2 hardware attempt, nothing but future dates for gen3 (so kinda like KNC, it's a plan with some dates attached as of right now, just not selling pre-orders), and no comment on the liquid cooling business.  There is a theoretical limit on how much folks are investing in this death-spiral to the bottom that we all know and love as mining, if folks like KNC or even CoinTerra manage to start rolling out 2TH+ devices that's about the end of any guesstimate for network speed or ROI on hardware. 

Long-term => we're facing the brink when the block reward halves again, but long before that we're going to get to the point that basically only the vendors can afford mining equipment anymore because there will be no room for margin.  When everything on the market produces negative ROI, people will stop buying.  At the end of the day, people will stop "investing" too because in the long-term there aren't any real benefits to keeping money in a venture that is continually depreciating.  Yes there may be a bump up in however many months it takes FC and crew to release more hardware or capture more of the network hashrate, but most folks who paid into AM shares likely won't even get the fiat value of their original purchase back, even with dividends included.  Sad facts.

So yes, folks in the community can be short-sighted, but long-term there aren't many good reasons to keep cash in anything but BTC.  You can liquidate immediately, costs zero power to maintain, you can trade and play the market to possibly profit, and you aren't starting at net negative (some people will call it sunk costs) to attempt to earn your money back while a vendor profits immediately.  Believe me, as someone who owns AM shares I'd love to see them rise from the ashes and become a market force again, but I have next to zero faith in this happening.  Like playing the lottery, I have my tickets, hope they pay off one day.  But not counting on it.

I agree keeping your "money" in BTC is a much safer bet. But AM is still a reasonable punt, especially at the SP it will be in January.

Wouldn't worry too much about the liquid cooling. They've announced it, shown the pics, not sure what more you want at this stage. Be nice to have them operational but we all know why that isn't happening.

Trading the market sounds great in theory because everyone can read historical graphs and those make it look easy. How many people can actually predict where the market is going in the next hour or day? Its a random walk to all but the most skilled trader. And trading fees are expensive now bitcoins cost so much 

[empoweoqwj]

I do believe its December 17th in Asia. I should know really as I live here 

Let's hope we get some kind of well-translated report from the meeting, but I guess it might all be private?

I think FC is acquiring people/companies/investors who will be buying the gen 3 chips for use in their own equipment and/or franchised hosting. I don't we'll be seeing a fully-fledged report but rather (maybe) a side note in an upcoming announcement "a meeting has been held to discuss deployment of gen 3 hardware"

Its that word "investor" that interests me. Unless its been mis-translated of course 

[Pompobit]

it seems like the asic miner mining farm

That or a franchise... I only know of Bitfountain and Asicminer, should we as investors no more about these other entities?

Isnt that the same mining farm as in
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=346134.0

The way the photos are taken is quite differently.

I think this solves the puzzle:
http://www.theverge.com/2013/12/2/5165428/bitcoin-mine-in-hong-kong-uses-jelly-to-keep-cool?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews

The ASICMINER open bath immersion system was reportedly built by Hong Kong-based company Allied Control

[apollojmr]

Looks like this is the company that Friedcat is in with...http://www.allied-control.com/

[empoweoqwj]

Looks like this is the company that Friedcat is in with...http://www.allied-control.com/

Again, this is very old news ...........

[Endlessa]

Edit: further more, buying a miner with btc to mine btc is pointless.  BUT, buying one with fiat to get BTC is why they exist in the first place.  The model of selling miners for BTC is a fail model, AM could really use this to it's advantage, if they can capitalize in yuan. then leave their mining profits in BTC, but use yuan to pay their supply line

I agree with this.  We may see an increase in demand for mining equipment in China.

If BTC exchanges in china or AM have their funding in order, they would immediately deploy BTC ATM machine network.  As long as you aren't the chinese bank, I see nothing that says you can't. In fact, I only see there were they are saying it is legal and fine to use.

[pornluver]

Okay, what's the valuation for this stock now?

[empoweoqwj]

Okay, what's the valuation for this stock now?

Look at front page of havelock.com - AM1 - 0.26BTC

[nexus 6]

Gentlemen, last two hour for bid in my auction. Actually 0.05 cheaper than havelock

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=373392.new#new

[Rival]

Chip design is a complicated thing. One would assume people would realize this, but I see the process over-simplified repeatedly. There are far more variables involved than just "How many NM is it?"

FC found this out the hard way, the same as BFL and many others. They taped out chips that ended up sucking up too much juice and running way too hot. There are a variety of solutions, but I like the path FC is taking. His 40nm chips will likely outperform the 28nm chips from other companies by a fair margin. And they will cost a fraction of what the 28nm chips will to manufacture. The problem though will be massive heat generation. Solution? Immersive cooling.

I mean really, there is an obvious strategy here. Lets look at the advantages:

Chips at less than 1/10 the cost of the competition
Higher performance chips (as measured in Gh/s)
Plenty of available foundries
Higher density cards and racks
Lower electricity costs for cooling
Deliverable turnkey farms (in storage containers)
Lower facilities costs ( don't need a traditional datacenter)

This really is the future of ASIC mining by inventing it, just like the tag line says. Friedcat is addressing issues most of the competition hasn't even contemplated yet. He is going industrial.

[reactor]

Chip design is a complicated thing. One would assume people would realize this, but I see the process over-simplified repeatedly. There are far more variables involved than just "How many NM is it?"

FC found this out the hard way, the same as BFL and many others. They taped out chips that ended up sucking up too much juice and running way too hot. There are a variety of solutions, but I like the path FC is taking. His 40nm chips will likely outperform the 28nm chips from other companies by a fair margin. And they will cost a fraction of what the 28nm chips will to manufacture. The problem though will be massive heat generation. Solution? Immersive cooling.

I mean really, there is an obvious strategy here. Lets look at the advantages:

Chips at less than 1/10 the cost of the competition
Higher performance chips (as measured in Gh/s)
Plenty of available foundries
Higher density cards and racks
Lower electricity costs for cooling
Deliverable turnkey farms (in storage containers)
Lower facilities costs ( don't need a traditional datacenter)

This really is the future of ASIC mining by inventing it, just like the tag line says. Friedcat is addressing issues most of the competition hasn't even contemplated yet. He is going industrial.

When mining goes "industrial" the community is dead.  The capabilities to deploy a liquid cooled behemoth fall to the very few, so hopefully the future has an answer to the block halving issue because the return on something that expansive will be questionable from the get-go, let alone remaining viable long-term.  Removing the concept of the block reward halving, the specs on a box would have to be absurdly impressive considering the higher-end that folks like KNC are starting to shoot for.  If a Neptune becomes the new norm for the hobbyist-turned-pro miner, we're at the verge of 2014 seeing an even more absurd growth curve than 2013 as far as hashrate distribution. 

Not to mention the ever-present X-factor that you could get a BFL-type company or even a KNC who says screw it, we're making our retirement, who cares how much hardware we push out and what impact it has on "the network".  Standard industry practice among the more greedy VC types is to bleed an industry of all the cash it has before moving on to the next industry, leaving both companies and customers in the dust.  BTC isn't immune to that, look how little cash it takes to tip markets and drive prices up and down the "to-the-moon" scale people like to use. 

I don't blame FC for thinking big, I blame the ASIC manu's across the board for thinking scaling up to industrial requirements is the future of mining.  The only direction this is going is centralization.

[CumpsD]

New to AM Direct shares, is there a central place where all information is collected without having to read 800 forum pages?

- Shareholder list
- Dividend amounts
- ...