GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion

[sidehack]

I didn't look much into Wasp but I did remember reading something about that backplane idea, which is why I asked specifically about it. When Novak and I were discussing ideas back in December I mentioned that idea. We like being able to use a generic controller, which is one reason we're doing USB connectivity on our boards instead of some application-specific comms and cabling which requires a specific controller build, and having a power+USB backplane fits right in with that.

We probably aren't going to build backplanes, though, since the demand for them will probably be small (by definition, the number desired will be a fraction of the number of boards) so the cost will be high, and cabling is already pretty easy to come by.

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[Bicknellski]

Yes we looked at those problems as well.

The idea was for that backplane to host all versions of the boards we built thus cutting down on the costs for each new  "machine" as well as looking into liquid cooling at that time.

I sent you and Novak an email I believe you already emailed us way back when we were working on the original idea and were directly in contact with the EE in the UK at that time from my records.

Anyhow full speed ahead on your designs if there is anything worthy of your time feel free to pick my brain and I can contact the EE's for you if you have any interest in what we did.

[sidehack]

Yeah, one of your guys emailed me about a year and a half ago about power supply something or other and I never got a reply back from him.

I don't really care about liquid cooling, since it's a rich man's game and screw those guys anyway they got enough help.

[Bicknellski]

Yeah, one of your guys emailed me about a year and a half ago about power supply something or other and I never got a reply back from him.

I don't really care about liquid cooling, since it's a rich man's game and screw those guys anyway they got enough help.

Depends on what liquids you want to play with.

Coconut Oil anyone? (Not joking.)

Efficient cooling is going to be required I think in the future of chips. Not that you will be doing this in 2-3 years given the move to BGA chips from most players. Most of the players on the large scale go evaporated cooling walls. Smaller miners could look at any number of ideas depending on their situation. Liquids seems well outside the home miner but there are options.

But like I said... steady on do what you got planned looks great from here I wish there was potential for you keep going on beyond the last version of the Bitmain chips but I doubt that anyone will be sticking with that tech moving forward next year it is all BGA stuff probably.

[vs3]

just my 2c on the backplanes idea - stick with The KISS Principle

In other words - don't go that route. IMHO it makes the whole design more complicated that what it could be, adds a bunch of extra fail points and really what's the gain? Saving $3 from a converter chip? Which you'll pay in extra connectors cost and more expensive boards and assembly.

If you really want to do chains - just add the option to use plain cables. Not that many people will go that route - you may as well just provide a few test points on the boards and those willing to experiment can solder the few wires - not a big deal.

[sidehack]

But BGA is a terrible idea for all the reasons we've listed extensively. I hope it doesn't become the standard, especially if string topology does become the standard. But the CPU model like what Spondoolies has mastered (and everyone else that's tried has gone bankrupt or made terrible hardware or both) has a definite efficiency ceiling and complexity floor which leave a lot of room for improvement. Most of which improvement can be made quite easily by using a matrix of small chips. This also makes design and manufacture a lot easier too, since you don't need a friggin' X-Ray machine to inspect your solder joints. The kind of chips Bitmain and Avalon are doing already are the best option and, unless the cost savings from chip fab outweigh the cost increases and efficiency hits from every other aspect of the process, I don't see a good reason to do any different.

If we do a backplane, it'd be be basically a PCB and edge connector version of PCIe cable + USB cable. The only thing a backplane might do differently is integrated USB hub chips so there's only one cabled connection between the backplane and a controller. All our boards will have USB connectivity, so making a box with a bunch of 'em in it would be possible by sticking a several-port hub in there and getting a bunch of short cables.

[chiguireitor]

If we do a backplane, it'd be be basically a PCB and edge connector version of PCIe cable + USB cable. The only thing a backplane might do differently is integrated USB hub chips so there's only one cabled connection between the backplane and a controller. All our boards will have USB connectivity, so making a box with a bunch of 'em in it would be possible by sticking a several-port hub in there and getting a bunch of short cables.

That is the main idea, simplify cabling and parts with a pluggable backplane, and replace boards as need arises. It currently is a shame that every new iteration of a chip or a miner design you have to get new controllers, with all the waste associated. With a hotpluggable design it is just a matter of remove board, plug new board, and hash away. No downtime and no extra waste. A board fails, boom remove it from the board and replace with another one.

Also, you could have several different cooling solutions, with standard air cooling as a default.

Anyways, these are exciting times for this project.

[vs3]

* BGA is a terrible idea (...) you need a friggin' X-Ray machine to inspect your solder joints.
* The kind of chips Bitmain and Avalon are doing already are the best option (...)

I'd add Bitfury in the above list - the simplicity (in terms of communication and especially packaging) made them stand out!

Amen to that!

Are you listening chip-makers?

[Dexter770221]

When SFARDS announced their chip I started collecting ideas how to build such an universal miner. I mean with exchangeable mining chips boards. Universal heatsink, universal DC/DC converter (0.6V - 2.0V 300A) universal controller board that can be connected to universal plug and play bus And I think I have all this covered. I already have notice of 3 month termination of my job so soon I will be jobless and have time to design this stuff. Anyone willing to send some BTC to "hamburger fund" ?

[Testing Crypto]

* BGA is a terrible idea (...) you need a friggin' X-Ray machine to inspect your solder joints.
* The kind of chips Bitmain and Avalon are doing already are the best option (...)

Amen to that!

Are you listening chip-makers?

Well said, couldn't have said it better & disliked working on Ball Grid Array solder joints (can't wait for the new material of the future, it's out there & just ahead of our time as of now)! BGA is not customizable & is very much a pain to work with, but the future of customization is here. Not everyone will want to have or use customizable equipment, but it doesn't hurt to have it for the ones who do

//dream of the breadboard of customizations, open platform is the future & BGA is the COAL of the past\\

[philipma1957]

Yeah, one of your guys emailed me about a year and a half ago about power supply something or other and I never got a reply back from him.

I don't really care about liquid cooling, since it's a rich man's game and screw those guys anyway they got enough help.

Depends on what liquids you want to play with.

Coconut Oil anyone? (Not joking.)

Efficient cooling is going to be required I think in the future of chips. Not that you will be doing this in 2-3 years given the move to BGA chips from most players. Most of the players on the large scale go evaporated cooling walls. Smaller miners could look at any number of ideas depending on their situation. Liquids seems well outside the home miner but there are options.

But like I said... steady on do what you got planned looks great from here I wish there was potential for you keep going on beyond the last version of the Bitmain chips but I doubt that anyone will be sticking with that tech moving forward next year it is all BGA stuff probably.

 At least he is doing this for the community.
Down the road we may need  a  10 to 20 person group  with a mini farm in Washington state or Canada to stay in 'home mining'.
   For now sidehack's 2 models will allow for us 'junkies' to have a toy or 2.


Future I see this:



with this :



Setup in a low cost power zone.  with a 10 or 5 way split

[Dexter770221]

with this :

Tell me how it is possible that you reading my mind
But I would place that air intake in other side. In shadow zone

[philipma1957]

Do not want to side track sidehack's thread.

with this :

Tell me how it is possible that you reading my mind
But I would place that air intake in other side. In shadow zone

Give the credit to Bick.  As for a shadow zone  a few well placed arborvitae should do the trick

[chiguireitor]

Come to my country and mine here, cheapest electricity in the world ($0.002/KWh), cheap internet ($1/mo for a crappy DSL, but usable for mining) and 30ºC ambient temp all day, and 17ºC at night. I can even mine without a/c units (with good extraction) with the S5.

[elrippo]

Come to my country and mine here, cheapest electricity in the world ($0.002/KWh), cheap internet ($1/mo for a crappy DSL, but usable for mining) and 30ºC ambient temp all day, and 17ºC at night. I can even mine without a/c units (with good extraction) with the S5.

  That's a good one mate, i always wanted to spend the rest of my days in a country with ambient temperatures and some fine mochitos

Back to topic. I got me half a dozen S1's and i can't wait to get to july for the boards 

[chiguireitor]

Back to topic. I got me half a dozen S1's and i can't wait to get to july for the boards 

I think TypeZeros are a good 4-5 months away... i think sidehack is about to release the Compac and Amita first.

[sidehack]

Compac test PCBs should be here Friday. I have some sample heatsinks I can play with arriving about the same time, but some better samples (possibly even anodized, possibly already drilled and tapped) might be another week out. If the PCBs come in Friday I'll do initial testing over the weekend and might get some to my first wave testers early next week.

Another thing arriving in the same proto-etch batch are some L boards made for mounting two BM1384 with stringed comms. Using one leg I can do two chips talking direct at the same voltage level; using the other leg I have two chips in string mode. If the string leg works, I add that to the Compac PCB, alter a few parts and send out for a batch of Amita PCBs.

We were running around and in meetings most of yesterday, and out of town all day today (7AM until 6PM) so I haven't gotten the test work done on the TypeZero power that I wanted to do. I might be changing up how I do that, fetching a different controller chip that has some drawbacks to the current system but also some good benefits. I'll probably do competing designs and see if the performance from the one outweighs the annoyance factor - honestly, for this board performance is the key. Efficiency needs to be as high as possible.

But if the Amita/L-board tests work, and I have a workable power system within a week or two, the only concerns left are integrating temp sensing, fan control and core voltage adjustment. If that's fairly straightforward I can have a TypeZero board ready to prototype by month's end. We'd still have to get a crap-ton of money, and get word from Bitmain about what we can do about chips, but I sincerely hope the TyepZero is less than 4 months away.

[chiguireitor]

But if the Amita/L-board tests work, and I have a workable power system within a week or two, the only concerns left are integrating temp sensing, fan control and core voltage adjustment. If that's fairly straightforward I can have a TypeZero board ready to prototype by month's end. We'd still have to get a crap-ton of money, and get word from Bitmain about what we can do about chips, but I sincerely hope the TyepZero is less than 4 months away.

Do yourself a favor and don't ever mention time frames again /sarcasm

Exciting times sidehack!!

[quakefiend420]

Compac test PCBs should be here Friday. I have some sample heatsinks I can play with arriving about the same time, but some better samples (possibly even anodized, possibly already drilled and tapped) might be another week out. If the PCBs come in Friday I'll do initial testing over the weekend and might get some to my first wave testers early next week.

Another thing arriving in the same proto-etch batch are some L boards made for mounting two BM1384 with stringed comms. Using one leg I can do two chips talking direct at the same voltage level; using the other leg I have two chips in string mode. If the string leg works, I add that to the Compac PCB, alter a few parts and send out for a batch of Amita PCBs.

We were running around and in meetings most of yesterday, and out of town all day today (7AM until 6PM) so I haven't gotten the test work done on the TypeZero power that I wanted to do. I might be changing up how I do that, fetching a different controller chip that has some drawbacks to the current system but also some good benefits. I'll probably do competing designs and see if the performance from the one outweighs the annoyance factor - honestly, for this board performance is the key. Efficiency needs to be as high as possible.

But if the Amita/L-board tests work, and I have a workable power system within a week or two, the only concerns left are integrating temp sensing, fan control and core voltage adjustment. If that's fairly straightforward I can have a TypeZero board ready to prototype by month's end. We'd still have to get a crap-ton of money, and get word from Bitmain about what we can do about chips, but I sincerely hope the TyepZero is less than 4 months away.

That's awesome man.  Will be cool to see the most efficient miner on the market being built by an enthusiast instead of a big company!

[elrippo]

Compac test PCBs should be here Friday. I have some sample heatsinks I can play with arriving about the same time, but some better samples (possibly even anodized, possibly already drilled and tapped) might be another week out. If the PCBs come in Friday I'll do initial testing over the weekend and might get some to my first wave testers early next week.

Another thing arriving in the same proto-etch batch are some L boards made for mounting two BM1384 with stringed comms. Using one leg I can do two chips talking direct at the same voltage level; using the other leg I have two chips in string mode. If the string leg works, I add that to the Compac PCB, alter a few parts and send out for a batch of Amita PCBs.

We were running around and in meetings most of yesterday, and out of town all day today (7AM until 6PM) so I haven't gotten the test work done on the TypeZero power that I wanted to do. I might be changing up how I do that, fetching a different controller chip that has some drawbacks to the current system but also some good benefits. I'll probably do competing designs and see if the performance from the one outweighs the annoyance factor - honestly, for this board performance is the key. Efficiency needs to be as high as possible.

But if the Amita/L-board tests work, and I have a workable power system within a week or two, the only concerns left are integrating temp sensing, fan control and core voltage adjustment. If that's fairly straightforward I can have a TypeZero board ready to prototype by month's end. We'd still have to get a crap-ton of money, and get word from Bitmain about what we can do about chips, but I sincerely hope the TyepZero is less than 4 months away.

That's awesome man.  Will be cool to see the most efficient miner on the market being built by an enthusiast instead of a big company!

Yeeeaaahhhhh 
Though with chips from a big company