GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion

[chiguireitor]

This idea could have been more well-funded but I'm unwilling to compromise. I don't like borrowing, and I despise investing. Borrowing to fetch the chips we did was a necessary evil, because if I'd waited until we had the cash in hand (which is to say, sometime next week) we'd have been sorely out of luck.

I feel ya... investing is just another necessary evil nowadays, and borrowing makes decision taking harder.

Let's hope the future holds better opportunities for the team!

[1714207697]

1714207697

[sidehack]

"Cultural differences" leads to another reason they might not want to do business with us - I don't exactly keep opinions to myself. As far as hardware goes, they're about the best manufacturer and have done a lot of good. However - I don't get the S4+, I'd really like to have seen them make good on their S2 Upgrade they had "in testing" four months ago, and the price gouging on the S5 is pretty crappy. I have a lot to say about a lot of manufacturers, but Bitmain might be upset that I publicly don't like some of the things they do, even if I publicly do like Bitmain in general. I don't really know who actually pays attention to anything I say though.

I'd like to keep working with Bitmain chips, because they're good chips. If they shift to 50-100W BGA in the future, you can count me out because that just makes everything in the design process suck, but as long as they keep the size/power trend they've been using, and continue to steadily improve performance like they've been doing, I'm in.


Investing is not a necessary evil. It's an evil people agree to when they don't really care who owns them as long as they keep getting paid. I'd prefer to be broke over being owned, so I'll have none with investors. Every depression and/or "economic downturn" America has seen in the last century has been the work of malignant investors and I refuse to have a hand in that culture of greed.

[HerbPean]

I think you guys are taking the right decision.

Let's wait for the new GEN. They should have plenty of chips to sale !

[philipma1957]

"Cultural differences" leads to another reason they might not want to do business with us - I don't exactly keep opinions to myself. As far as hardware goes, they're about the best manufacturer and have done a lot of good. However - I don't get the S4+, I'd really like to have seen them make good on their S2 Upgrade they had "in testing" four months ago, and the price gouging on the S5 is pretty crappy. I have a lot to say about a lot of manufacturers, but Bitmain might be upset that I publicly don't like some of the things they do, even if I publicly do like Bitmain in general. I don't really know who actually pays attention to anything I say though.

I'd like to keep working with Bitmain chips, because they're good chips. If they shift to 50-100W BGA in the future, you can count me out because that just makes everything in the design process suck, but as long as they keep the size/power trend they've been using, and continue to steadily improve performance like they've been doing, I'm in.


Investing is not a necessary evil. It's an evil people agree to when they don't really care who owns them as long as they keep getting paid. I'd prefer to be broke over being owned, so I'll have none with investors. Every depression and/or "economic downturn" America has seen in the last century has been the work of malignant investors and I refuse to have a hand in that culture of greed.

I understand you as greed can kill off the 'Golden Goose' that BTC may be.

Digital coin Asic manufacturers are in an unusual spot.  They are building machines that 'print' money.   

Bitmaintech could build tons and tons and tons and tons of gear sell it really cheap and let the market sort out that move.

They are building slowly , selling slowly as it has proved to earn money so far.

Do I think they are correct to do this.  Well I argued for asic builders to do this last summer and  last fall.  Builders have kind of done this since October 2014.
Is it good for BTC maybe.  We are still here.  I rather the network not grow to 10,000 ph from the current 380 ph.

I look at this entire Digital coin movement and I still rate bitmaintech well.  I do think they will offer more chips to you.



BTW

I will always have some funds for you  without strings as I am more of a nice guy investor.
As I like the freedom BTC can offer people in our world.

[sidehack]

I'm not opposed to the rate at which gear is being sold. I am opposed to selling used gear as new, and opposed to pricing said used gear higher than they were selling it when it was *actually* new some months earlier. I'm also opposed to regression, going backward in design and/or efficiency and selling the results for even more. That S5 and S4+ sales continued to happen when prices were ridiculously high is the fault of idiot customers, but Bitmain gave them the opportunity to be idiots at their own expense (and Bitmain's additional profit).

I'm not opposed to self-mining in general. I am opposed to self-mining in competition with hardware sales, because then you start to make compromises like mining on your best gear for a few months before handing it off to someone else. You burn off the top profit and then pass it off to someone else still at high markup, so you profit twice. Will I self-mine with TypeZero boards when they're built? Sure. I've got a dozen S1 I'd like to outfit. But will I sell them as new gear two months later? No. They're very clearly used. Will I self-mine on a thousand TypeZero boards if I have a thousand extras? No. I'll fire 'em up to test for a day or two, then package and shelve them. Because I shouldn't be competing with my customers, since I, by my own design, always have the advantage - which pretty clearly makes it cheating.

I like that the diff increase has been slow, partly because gear is moving out more slowly. But I don't like competing with customers and then lying to them about it.

I also don't like giving breaks to rich guys, but since everyone does it, and since that's already been discussed extensively here, I'll say no more on the subject.

[notlist3d]

"Cultural differences" leads to another reason they might not want to do business with us - I don't exactly keep opinions to myself. As far as hardware goes, they're about the best manufacturer and have done a lot of good. However - I don't get the S4+, I'd really like to have seen them make good on their S2 Upgrade they had "in testing" four months ago, and the price gouging on the S5 is pretty crappy. I have a lot to say about a lot of manufacturers, but Bitmain might be upset that I publicly don't like some of the things they do, even if I publicly do like Bitmain in general. I don't really know who actually pays attention to anything I say though.

I'd like to keep working with Bitmain chips, because they're good chips. If they shift to 50-100W BGA in the future, you can count me out because that just makes everything in the design process suck, but as long as they keep the size/power trend they've been using, and continue to steadily improve performance like they've been doing, I'm in.


Investing is not a necessary evil. It's an evil people agree to when they don't really care who owns them as long as they keep getting paid. I'd prefer to be broke over being owned, so I'll have none with investors. Every depression and/or "economic downturn" America has seen in the last century has been the work of malignant investors and I refuse to have a hand in that culture of greed.

Part of what I love about your project is you are honest.  You tell us the facts and do not hide information.   For example what you did with the chips was quite amazing getting that efficiency out of the chip.   It kinda made us all wonder why did bitmain not do that.   Even when you shared the price on chips I loved how you did not hide it on price.   I was honestly surprised you could tell some of what you did with the signed NDA.   I was happy you did share so much, it made me believe in the product and testing really made me believe in it.

[valkir]

That way of thinking make you one of my favorite dev/creator!  

Bitcoin is suppoce to be a community project! Working together to get better all together! These last years, more and more person started business to make pure profit without helping the network and system!

When a hardware company sell a gear as new but the gear is not new, it always give bad reputation to bitcoin. Since new miners will prefer to stop mining if they get screw at start.

This is why we need to start to work together. I do understand you need to live and paid the bill. I dont said trow your cash away but think as a community. Work together. When someone do something like Sidehack and Novak did, you always get paid back. I for sure will buy stuff from them if I need because they earn my trust. This is how people should think. Think of the futur. Bitcoin is a system base on trust and you need to act for it. Working with the minding of doing cash is killing the idea. Working in the minding of making the community better is growing.

Just my thinking on the subject!  

[quakefiend420]

Bitcoin is a system base on trust and you need to act for it.

Not to pick on you, but Bitcoin is actually a system based on lack of trust

[wlefever]

Bitcoin wants to be a currency system that doesn't rely on trust. Paradoxically, Bitcoin requires a trust-based ecosystem. Kinda crazy huh?

[sidehack]

There was less trust required in the CPU/GPU days because those were common goods. Now that it's dependent upon application-specific machinery we're forced to trust the few vendors of said machinery, which admittedly has a statistically unfavorable outcome (when you weigh the number of failed and/or scam-based vendors against the proven reputable).

There really isn't any means of currency exchange for goods or services that isn't at its core trust-based. The "doesn't rely on trust" aspect of bitcoin is based around not relying on the origin source of the currency, not its destination within a transaction.

Something something Economics subforum something something.

[philipma1957]

There was less trust required in the CPU/GPU days because those were common goods. Now that it's dependent upon application-specific machinery we're forced to trust the few vendors of said machinery, which admittedly has a statistically unfavorable outcome (when you weigh the number of failed and/or scam-based vendors against the proven reputable).

There really isn't any means of currency exchange for goods or services that isn't at its core trust-based. The "doesn't rely on trust" aspect of bitcoin is based around not relying on the origin source of the currency, not its destination within a transaction.

Something something Economics subforum something something.

 

Yeah the problem is the lack of vendors.  Even if it was all amd based gpu's which it was for a while at least they were 'real'  worldwide sellers.  And  people used  them  to mine or game or see any video at all.

Now with  BTC or nothing gear and the lack of 8 or 10 'real' sellers worldwide sellers it is hard to get gear.

The lack of vendors in BTC /Digital asics is simple  not enough demand for coins = low coin price = not many miners = not many vendors.  But all off topic and part of economics subforum.

[Meech]

What first caught my eye in Bitcoin was the community and the lack of big business, at first it was just a hobby with great potential.  Supported by other hobbyists with an initial goal, to build the bitcoin community.  It did take awhile before companies sprouted up to take our money and build their cursed FARMS.  The pre farm days was a golden time in my opinion.
I fully support sidehack and Novak, their commitment and goals seem honest and legit.  I foresee you doing quite well in the coming months as long as you lock in chip manufacturers support. 
Sidehack I totally agree on your Bitmain stance, the good and bad.  I've always felt some of these companies could produce a product cheaper, more efficient and more powerful but dumb them down to sell to the public.  I hope I never see a miner model called a + again, it's just a slap in the face and an insult to the communities intellect given the past products.
I appreciate your candor in your business decisions and hope all the best for GekkoScience.

[sidehack]

Well you're going to be sorely disappointed in two months when we release the Compac+ with 5% lower power draw and better stability. Don't worry, it'll only cost 20% more than the original.

[Meech]

Dam!  How about the Compac X?  X for extreme.  Curse these +'s.   

[philipma1957]

Dam!  How about the Compac X?  X for extreme.  Curse these +'s.   

I would prefer the Compac XXX triple the action hot and ready to go just plug n play!

[Biodom]

Well I am an optimist.  So I see the glass as half full.  This is a funny industry we are playing in.  Could end up being very big  or fully busted out in the next ten years.

Yeah, i am calling myself an optimist as well.
It would be interesting either way
Are we an early christians so to speak or "cult" members? History will show.

[sidehack]

You know... our shop is just down the lane from a big dildo store. I could make a Compac XXX mounted inside a rubber dong, so you can plug and play and plug and play and plug and play yourself silly. How's that for hot action?

The Extreme Compac (Compac X) would probably have a black PCB and bigger heatsink (with flames painted on it), and modified hardware and software so you could take it to 900mV and 500MHz. All the LEDs would be red. It would also have a big red TURBO button on it, that doesn't actually do anything but makes you feel like you're kicking on the nitrous injectors or something.

[Meech]

I'll go with the latter, I'm not into pleasing others    But worthless Big Turbo buttons and Flashy Leds.... I'm in.

[sidehack]

Maybe I'll make a black 8-chip board with a silver heatsink and built-in ducted fan with red blades, and we'll call it the B8 Interceptor. The last one to come off the production line will of course be nicknamed Max.

[AJRGale]

You know... our shop is just down the lane from a big dildo store. I could make a Compac XXX mounted inside a rubber dong, so you can plug and play and plug and play and plug and play yourself silly. How's that for hot action?

The Extreme Compac (Compac X) would probably have a black PCB and bigger heatsink (with flames painted on it), and modified hardware and software so you could take it to 900mV and 500MHz. All the LEDs would be red. It would also have a big red TURBO button on it, that doesn't actually do anything but makes you feel like you're kicking on the nitrous injectors or something.

what you could do with the button is increase the voltage (make it run hotter) have a 10 second 8kbps v8 reving sound pumped out of a 10c piezo, and 3 more LEDs lighting up just under the sink that will make nerds drop their... glasses

Maybe I'll make a black 8-chip board with a silver heatsink and built-in ducted fan with red blades, and we'll call it the B8 Interceptor. The last one to come off the production line will of course be nicknamed Max.

you MUST make 1 of these! and sit it on the self at your museum!