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Author Topic: GekkoScience BM1384 Project Development Discussion  (Read 143145 times)
vs3
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May 06, 2015, 06:30:57 AM
 #661

just my 2c on the backplanes idea - stick with The KISS Principle Wink

In other words - don't go that route. IMHO it makes the whole design more complicated that what it could be, adds a bunch of extra fail points and really what's the gain? Saving $3 from a converter chip? Which you'll pay in extra connectors cost and more expensive boards and assembly.

If you really want to do chains - just add the option to use plain cables. Not that many people will go that route - you may as well just provide a few test points on the boards and those willing to experiment can solder the few wires - not a big deal.

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sidehack
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May 06, 2015, 10:43:44 AM
 #662

But BGA is a terrible idea for all the reasons we've listed extensively. I hope it doesn't become the standard, especially if string topology does become the standard. But the CPU model like what Spondoolies has mastered (and everyone else that's tried has gone bankrupt or made terrible hardware or both) has a definite efficiency ceiling and complexity floor which leave a lot of room for improvement. Most of which improvement can be made quite easily by using a matrix of small chips. This also makes design and manufacture a lot easier too, since you don't need a friggin' X-Ray machine to inspect your solder joints. The kind of chips Bitmain and Avalon are doing already are the best option and, unless the cost savings from chip fab outweigh the cost increases and efficiency hits from every other aspect of the process, I don't see a good reason to do any different.

If we do a backplane, it'd be be basically a PCB and edge connector version of PCIe cable + USB cable. The only thing a backplane might do differently is integrated USB hub chips so there's only one cabled connection between the backplane and a controller. All our boards will have USB connectivity, so making a box with a bunch of 'em in it would be possible by sticking a several-port hub in there and getting a bunch of short cables.

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May 06, 2015, 11:31:05 AM
 #663

If we do a backplane, it'd be be basically a PCB and edge connector version of PCIe cable + USB cable. The only thing a backplane might do differently is integrated USB hub chips so there's only one cabled connection between the backplane and a controller. All our boards will have USB connectivity, so making a box with a bunch of 'em in it would be possible by sticking a several-port hub in there and getting a bunch of short cables.

That is the main idea, simplify cabling and parts with a pluggable backplane, and replace boards as need arises. It currently is a shame that every new iteration of a chip or a miner design you have to get new controllers, with all the waste associated. With a hotpluggable design it is just a matter of remove board, plug new board, and hash away. No downtime and no extra waste. A board fails, boom remove it from the board and replace with another one.

Also, you could have several different cooling solutions, with standard air cooling as a default.

Anyways, these are exciting times for this project.

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May 06, 2015, 11:50:00 AM
 #664

* BGA is a terrible idea (...) you need a friggin' X-Ray machine to inspect your solder joints.
* The kind of chips Bitmain and Avalon are doing already are the best option (...)
I'd add Bitfury in the above list - the simplicity (in terms of communication and especially packaging) made them stand out!

Amen to that!

Are you listening chip-makers?

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May 06, 2015, 12:00:07 PM
 #665

When SFARDS announced their chip I started collecting ideas how to build such an universal miner. I mean with exchangeable mining chips boards. Universal heatsink, universal DC/DC converter (0.6V - 2.0V 300A) universal controller board that can be connected to universal plug and play bus Wink And I think I have all this covered. I already have notice of 3 month termination of my job so soon I will be jobless and have time to design this stuff. Anyone willing to send some BTC to "hamburger fund" ?

Under development Modular UPGRADEABLE Miner (MUM). Looking for investors.
Changing one PCB with screwdriver and you have brand new miner in hand... Plug&Play, scalable from one module to thousands.
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May 06, 2015, 12:03:23 PM
 #666

* BGA is a terrible idea (...) you need a friggin' X-Ray machine to inspect your solder joints.
* The kind of chips Bitmain and Avalon are doing already are the best option (...)

Amen to that!

Are you listening chip-makers?

Well said, couldn't have said it better & disliked working on Ball Grid Array solder joints (can't wait for the new material of the future, it's out there & just ahead of our time as of now)! BGA is not customizable & is very much a pain to work with, but the future of customization is here. Not everyone will want to have or use customizable equipment, but it doesn't hurt to have it for the ones who do Cool

//dream of the breadboard of customizations, open platform is the future & BGA is the COAL of the past\\

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May 06, 2015, 12:25:30 PM
 #667

Yeah, one of your guys emailed me about a year and a half ago about power supply something or other and I never got a reply back from him.

I don't really care about liquid cooling, since it's a rich man's game and screw those guys anyway they got enough help.

Depends on what liquids you want to play with.

Coconut Oil anyone? Grin (Not joking.)

Efficient cooling is going to be required I think in the future of chips. Not that you will be doing this in 2-3 years given the move to BGA chips from most players. Most of the players on the large scale go evaporated cooling walls. Smaller miners could look at any number of ideas depending on their situation. Liquids seems well outside the home miner but there are options.

But like I said... steady on do what you got planned looks great from here I wish there was potential for you keep going on beyond the last version of the Bitmain chips but I doubt that anyone will be sticking with that tech moving forward next year it is all BGA stuff probably.

 At least he is doing this for the community.
Down the road we may need  a  10 to 20 person group  with a mini farm in Washington state or Canada to stay in 'home mining'.
   For now sidehack's 2 models will allow for us 'junkies' to have a toy or 2.


Future I see this:



with this :



Setup in a low cost power zone.  with a 10 or 5 way split

Please support sidehack with his new miner project Send to : 1BURGERAXHH6Yi6LRybRJK7ybEm5m5HwTr
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May 06, 2015, 12:33:38 PM
 #668


with this :



Tell me how it is possible that you reading my mind Wink
But I would place that air intake in other side. In shadow zone Wink

Under development Modular UPGRADEABLE Miner (MUM). Looking for investors.
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May 06, 2015, 12:43:44 PM
 #669

Do not want to side track sidehack's thread.



with this :



Tell me how it is possible that you reading my mind Wink
But I would place that air intake in other side. In shadow zone Wink

Give the credit to Bick.  As for a shadow zone  a few well placed arborvitae should do the trick


Please support sidehack with his new miner project Send to : 1BURGERAXHH6Yi6LRybRJK7ybEm5m5HwTr
I mine alt coins with https://simplemining.net I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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May 06, 2015, 03:13:26 PM
 #670

Come to my country and mine here, cheapest electricity in the world ($0.002/KWh), cheap internet ($1/mo for a crappy DSL, but usable for mining) and 30ºC ambient temp all day, and 17ºC at night. I can even mine without a/c units (with good extraction) with the S5. Cheesy

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May 06, 2015, 03:40:32 PM
 #671

Come to my country and mine here, cheapest electricity in the world ($0.002/KWh), cheap internet ($1/mo for a crappy DSL, but usable for mining) and 30ºC ambient temp all day, and 17ºC at night. I can even mine without a/c units (with good extraction) with the S5. Cheesy

 Grin Cheesy Wink That's a good one mate, i always wanted to spend the rest of my days in a country with ambient temperatures and some fine mochitos Cool

Back to topic. I got me half a dozen S1's and i can't wait to get to july for the boards  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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May 06, 2015, 07:03:41 PM
 #672

Back to topic. I got me half a dozen S1's and i can't wait to get to july for the boards  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

I think TypeZeros are a good 4-5 months away... i think sidehack is about to release the Compac and Amita first.

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May 06, 2015, 11:37:01 PM
 #673

Compac test PCBs should be here Friday. I have some sample heatsinks I can play with arriving about the same time, but some better samples (possibly even anodized, possibly already drilled and tapped) might be another week out. If the PCBs come in Friday I'll do initial testing over the weekend and might get some to my first wave testers early next week.

Another thing arriving in the same proto-etch batch are some L boards made for mounting two BM1384 with stringed comms. Using one leg I can do two chips talking direct at the same voltage level; using the other leg I have two chips in string mode. If the string leg works, I add that to the Compac PCB, alter a few parts and send out for a batch of Amita PCBs.

We were running around and in meetings most of yesterday, and out of town all day today (7AM until 6PM) so I haven't gotten the test work done on the TypeZero power that I wanted to do. I might be changing up how I do that, fetching a different controller chip that has some drawbacks to the current system but also some good benefits. I'll probably do competing designs and see if the performance from the one outweighs the annoyance factor - honestly, for this board performance is the key. Efficiency needs to be as high as possible.

But if the Amita/L-board tests work, and I have a workable power system within a week or two, the only concerns left are integrating temp sensing, fan control and core voltage adjustment. If that's fairly straightforward I can have a TypeZero board ready to prototype by month's end. We'd still have to get a crap-ton of money, and get word from Bitmain about what we can do about chips, but I sincerely hope the TyepZero is less than 4 months away.

Selling seconds 2Pacs for a friend's med bills - PM for details
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May 07, 2015, 04:02:26 AM
 #674

But if the Amita/L-board tests work, and I have a workable power system within a week or two, the only concerns left are integrating temp sensing, fan control and core voltage adjustment. If that's fairly straightforward I can have a TypeZero board ready to prototype by month's end. We'd still have to get a crap-ton of money, and get word from Bitmain about what we can do about chips, but I sincerely hope the TyepZero is less than 4 months away.

Do yourself a favor and don't ever mention time frames again /sarcasm

Exciting times sidehack!!

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May 07, 2015, 07:15:26 AM
 #675

Compac test PCBs should be here Friday. I have some sample heatsinks I can play with arriving about the same time, but some better samples (possibly even anodized, possibly already drilled and tapped) might be another week out. If the PCBs come in Friday I'll do initial testing over the weekend and might get some to my first wave testers early next week.

Another thing arriving in the same proto-etch batch are some L boards made for mounting two BM1384 with stringed comms. Using one leg I can do two chips talking direct at the same voltage level; using the other leg I have two chips in string mode. If the string leg works, I add that to the Compac PCB, alter a few parts and send out for a batch of Amita PCBs.

We were running around and in meetings most of yesterday, and out of town all day today (7AM until 6PM) so I haven't gotten the test work done on the TypeZero power that I wanted to do. I might be changing up how I do that, fetching a different controller chip that has some drawbacks to the current system but also some good benefits. I'll probably do competing designs and see if the performance from the one outweighs the annoyance factor - honestly, for this board performance is the key. Efficiency needs to be as high as possible.

But if the Amita/L-board tests work, and I have a workable power system within a week or two, the only concerns left are integrating temp sensing, fan control and core voltage adjustment. If that's fairly straightforward I can have a TypeZero board ready to prototype by month's end. We'd still have to get a crap-ton of money, and get word from Bitmain about what we can do about chips, but I sincerely hope the TyepZero is less than 4 months away.

That's awesome man.  Will be cool to see the most efficient miner on the market being built by an enthusiast instead of a big company!
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May 07, 2015, 07:30:54 AM
 #676

Compac test PCBs should be here Friday. I have some sample heatsinks I can play with arriving about the same time, but some better samples (possibly even anodized, possibly already drilled and tapped) might be another week out. If the PCBs come in Friday I'll do initial testing over the weekend and might get some to my first wave testers early next week.

Another thing arriving in the same proto-etch batch are some L boards made for mounting two BM1384 with stringed comms. Using one leg I can do two chips talking direct at the same voltage level; using the other leg I have two chips in string mode. If the string leg works, I add that to the Compac PCB, alter a few parts and send out for a batch of Amita PCBs.

We were running around and in meetings most of yesterday, and out of town all day today (7AM until 6PM) so I haven't gotten the test work done on the TypeZero power that I wanted to do. I might be changing up how I do that, fetching a different controller chip that has some drawbacks to the current system but also some good benefits. I'll probably do competing designs and see if the performance from the one outweighs the annoyance factor - honestly, for this board performance is the key. Efficiency needs to be as high as possible.

But if the Amita/L-board tests work, and I have a workable power system within a week or two, the only concerns left are integrating temp sensing, fan control and core voltage adjustment. If that's fairly straightforward I can have a TypeZero board ready to prototype by month's end. We'd still have to get a crap-ton of money, and get word from Bitmain about what we can do about chips, but I sincerely hope the TyepZero is less than 4 months away.

That's awesome man.  Will be cool to see the most efficient miner on the market being built by an enthusiast instead of a big company!

Yeeeaaahhhhh  Grin
Though with chips from a big company  Wink
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May 07, 2015, 07:33:41 AM
 #677

Compac test PCBs should be here Friday. I have some sample heatsinks I can play with arriving about the same time, but some better samples (possibly even anodized, possibly already drilled and tapped) might be another week out. If the PCBs come in Friday I'll do initial testing over the weekend and might get some to my first wave testers early next week.

Another thing arriving in the same proto-etch batch are some L boards made for mounting two BM1384 with stringed comms. Using one leg I can do two chips talking direct at the same voltage level; using the other leg I have two chips in string mode. If the string leg works, I add that to the Compac PCB, alter a few parts and send out for a batch of Amita PCBs.

We were running around and in meetings most of yesterday, and out of town all day today (7AM until 6PM) so I haven't gotten the test work done on the TypeZero power that I wanted to do. I might be changing up how I do that, fetching a different controller chip that has some drawbacks to the current system but also some good benefits. I'll probably do competing designs and see if the performance from the one outweighs the annoyance factor - honestly, for this board performance is the key. Efficiency needs to be as high as possible.

But if the Amita/L-board tests work, and I have a workable power system within a week or two, the only concerns left are integrating temp sensing, fan control and core voltage adjustment. If that's fairly straightforward I can have a TypeZero board ready to prototype by month's end. We'd still have to get a crap-ton of money, and get word from Bitmain about what we can do about chips, but I sincerely hope the TyepZero is less than 4 months away.

That's awesome man.  Will be cool to see the most efficient miner on the market being built by an enthusiast instead of a big company!

Yeeeaaahhhhh  Grin
Though with chips from a big company  Wink

Well, yeah...but still.  Pretty cool regardless!
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May 07, 2015, 07:56:45 AM
 #678

Compac test PCBs should be here Friday. I have some sample heatsinks I can play with arriving about the same time, but some better samples (possibly even anodized, possibly already drilled and tapped) might be another week out. If the PCBs come in Friday I'll do initial testing over the weekend and might get some to my first wave testers early next week.

Another thing arriving in the same proto-etch batch are some L boards made for mounting two BM1384 with stringed comms. Using one leg I can do two chips talking direct at the same voltage level; using the other leg I have two chips in string mode. If the string leg works, I add that to the Compac PCB, alter a few parts and send out for a batch of Amita PCBs.

We were running around and in meetings most of yesterday, and out of town all day today (7AM until 6PM) so I haven't gotten the test work done on the TypeZero power that I wanted to do. I might be changing up how I do that, fetching a different controller chip that has some drawbacks to the current system but also some good benefits. I'll probably do competing designs and see if the performance from the one outweighs the annoyance factor - honestly, for this board performance is the key. Efficiency needs to be as high as possible.

But if the Amita/L-board tests work, and I have a workable power system within a week or two, the only concerns left are integrating temp sensing, fan control and core voltage adjustment. If that's fairly straightforward I can have a TypeZero board ready to prototype by month's end. We'd still have to get a crap-ton of money, and get word from Bitmain about what we can do about chips, but I sincerely hope the TyepZero is less than 4 months away.

That's awesome man.  Will be cool to see the most efficient miner on the market being built by an enthusiast instead of a big company!

Yeeeaaahhhhh  Grin
Though with chips from a big company  Wink

Well, yeah...but still.  Pretty cool regardless!

Jope, and i admire these guys for their work!!!
Especially if you read the first Manuals from Bitmain for the S5, they stated that with lower Voltage of 9 Volt you could achieve 0,3W/GH...
Now SIDEHACK and his guys are going for this setup and this is absoloutely of the roof  Shocked Roll Eyes Cheesy Wink Grin
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May 07, 2015, 04:15:33 PM
 #679

And I'm really hoping we'll be able to get chips from Bitmain to make S1 refit boards or y'alls money  is approximately going to waste.

If we can't get chips from them, though, we'll figure something else out. Hopefully. This project is too good to throw away.

Been outta' the loop for awhile, long time no talk.
I hope you have better luck getting chips outta' Bitmain.
We've wanted to buy some for quite a while for a similar project (high chip density board for immersion cooling) but Bitmain never seems to want to release/sell them in quantity.
Like you (and others) we were hoping that the BE300 would come to fruition. Alas I fear that's not going to be the case in the near term.

In our immersion cooling world, a high hashing-chip density board consuming 1Kw-2Kw with edge card connectors mating to a backplane for power and USB interface, designed to dissipate the heat through the pad with all the components on the opposite side would be PRIMO. A design like that would lend itself to air (heatsink) or waterblock cooling solutions as well. If the backplane had an appropriate number of connectors like your DPS-2000 adapter one could keep the power and ground planes short and thick.

Another concept might be to socket the hash chips assuming that the BM1384 and BM1386 remain pin compatible.

Anyway, you'se guys are the brilliant ones and I'm sure whatever you come up with will be fricking amazing.

BTW, I have contacts inside 3M that may be able to apply a little external corporate pressure to prod Bitmain to release/sell chips to a board manufacturer that makes an immersion coolable board cuz' 3M, obviously, wants to sell their Novec engineered fluids, adhesives, and sealants. Let me know if I should make a couple of calls to "grease the wheels of motion".

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May 07, 2015, 05:14:57 PM
 #680

One issue with a board-cooled string design is that each node in the string is at a different ground potential. If there's any short through the heatsink from the ground plane of one node to another, the best case is your PSU trips out and the worst case is stuff catches on fire.
For an anecdotal reliability comparison, the Prisma used board-cooled string and the S5 uses top-cooled string. Not many S5 catch on fire. As much as it'd be easier to manufacture and probably easier to install, I don't like the idea of a board-cooled string because it also makes it easier to fail.

I was thinking of mentioning to you that we're looking into a Prisma refit board with the BM1384 - same size and stock power level. I know you were playing with immersion cooling on those several months ago.

Socketing seems to be an unlikely way to go. Given that (with the exception of BitFury R1 and R2 chips) nobody has ever made a pin-compatible next-gen chip, given that sockets for the fairly customized footprint may not exist, given that if they do (or can) exist they'll cost more than the chips themselves and the chips themselves would cost more than the PCB and every other part on it, it's probably not feasible.

My primary interest is still to build things geared toward individual miners. If one of the big guys building industrial stuff wants to repurpose for immersion cooling, that's fine. But unless the big guy specifically commissions a board design and pays all the dev costs, I'm probably not going to do anything specifically for his benefit.

Selling seconds 2Pacs for a friend's med bills - PM for details
Currently in development - 20-120GH USB stick; 700GH 75W pod; 4TH volt-adjustable S1/3/5 upgrade kit
Server PSU interface boards and cables. USB and small-scale miners. Hardware hosting, advice and odd-jobs. Supporting the home miner community since 2013 - http://www.gekkoscience.com
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