So i know brute force means like you try all the combinations..


1. But its a computer entering each one etc over and over right?  And not like a person doing it manually right?  Now with brute force, is it a program that does it or is it a computer?




Now the electrum seed is 12 words.  The nano ledger is 24 words.  I know other wallets have 12 as well and others have 24 in general




2. If say someone has all the words for each electrum and nano ledger s... is your seed basically compromised even if one doesn't know the order of each one?  I gotta assume electrum could easily be done by manually typing each word and combination right?  But with the nano ledger s, a lot more time but thats probably done in days?  And its a program that will brute force it?  Thus you see on the computer and it would auto type all the words and enter each time... then rinse and repeat?  Or is that not how brute force works?




3. How many words being exposed for electrum and nano ledger s would you consider your seed a bit compromised?  Obviously if you give 1-2 words out for electrum or nano ledger s... that is still very safe right?  But obviously electrum is not as safe because less words.  If someone has your first 6 words of electrum or the last 6 words... how long would it take to brute force that?  What about ledger with 12 words... say someone found one half of your 24 word seed?



4. Order is much less important than the words right?  Like is it better to have exposed 6 words of your 24 word seed as oppose to having say 3 words straight of your 24 word seed?




5.  I always felt the 12 word seed in electrum wasn't safe because I thought hey only 12 words and the word list is only over 2000 words or so.  I thought to myself, well imagine I just go to recovery seed in electrum and just trial and error all the words... surely I would make one hit ... but this is basically impossible right?  Because ppl I assume with brute force program could type the combinations of words for them in electrum?  Thus imagine it type each manually by looking at the word list while it would be doing the same but machine doing it and faster... is that right?  I thought well if it keeps entering words... wouldn't it eventually find a match?  Or is there a period where after you type in say 50 combinations and it doesn't work... it can't enter more words until a certain time period?  Like imagine you try to log into your email account with password and you are wrong three times then it won't let you log in for another hour or so etc... but no issue like that with brute force? 

The issue here is a thief would check everywhere so even if you hide it, isn't it still chance they can find it?  Like you mean a hiding spot and not something hidden like a safe right?  I always felt safe is bad idea because isn't that the first place a thief would look besides it in the open and the table/drawers?


Now if you hide it in a notebook or in the open, but its like hidden in words or things like that, well a thief wouldn't even check that wouldn't you agree?


You say the code is trivial, but how would they even figure it out?  I mean it could mean a password that is in code form or something.  Unless that thief knows what it is... wouldn't that be good idea?


What do you mean store it in protect format and encrypt it?  You mean like in a document and encrypt it with axcrypt or bitlocker?  But what you mean encryption key on paper separately?  I dont get the paper part. 

https://www.investopedia.com/news/how-winklevoss-twins-store-their-crypto-fortune/


So the winkelvoss store them throughout safety deposit boxes throughout the US.  So in that article, its a paper wallet in each one?  It says a printout of their private keys ... so does that mean like them writing the seed in paper or like a paper seed?


So wouldn't this be very safe?  Thus imagine they split the seed into two with two banks?  But of course they make a copy of each.  So wouldn't that mean like it take four banks for one seed?  Thus imagine they have ten wallets, they they get forty safe deposit boxes throughout the US?


I thought one idea was to have two safety deposit boxes.. where you split it into two pieces of paper.  That seem to be what the winkelvoss does but obviously they do it much more complex.





Also i thought about something else.  What about writing it in a notebook with your other things.  I mean if you look at the notebook with nothing there, well aren't they not going to scroll the notebook right?


The biggest issue I felt is theft or natural disaster.  And people who say use crytosteel... i mean is it easy to hide it?


I thought of something else like imagine you use a code or something.  Like imagine instead of letters for each word, you use a code... like A means C, B means  D.... etc like a code.  The issue is if you forget the code... well it shouldn't be that hard as you move two spots... then wouldn't that be good?  Because its not even words right

https://www.investopedia.com/news/how-winklevoss-twins-store-their-crypto-fortune/


So the winkelvoss store them throughout safety deposit boxes throughout the US.  So in that article, its a paper wallet in each one?  It says a printout of their private keys ... so does that mean like them writing the seed in paper or like a paper seed?


So wouldn't this be very safe?  Thus imagine they split the seed into two with two banks?  But of course they make a copy of each.  So wouldn't that mean like it take four banks for one seed?  Thus imagine they have ten wallets, they they get forty safe deposit boxes throughout the US?


I thought one idea was to have two safety deposit boxes.. where you split it into two pieces of paper.  Would you recommend this?

Some of the points do make sense though.

Okay thanks... but when you restore a seed... you should always delete all those accounts first right?  Then add each one individually?


When i restored my seed not long ago, I recall we deleted all the accounts there right?  Then I added each account manually.


So basically only do that when restoring a seed... but no need when firmware update right?


Do you know why the identifier showed a very long line though?  It was a few lines... i was surprised b/c i thought it was just one line.


Yea i notice the firmware when i did the update, it gave me a few extra kb of space.  Btw, how many apps can you store now on the nano ledger ?  Is it only when you run out of kb?  Because it seem like bitcoin uses the most kb.... like ten times as much as every other app?  Bitcoin seem to use over 40kb but bch and bitcoin gold and others uses like 4kb or so?  And the total space is like over 152kb now but before update it was like 144kb?

That is what I mean.  Like if you buy that much btc... it could be one or hundred... then say you want to make 5 percent... then get out... well you have your profit?  Of course the more trades you make, the better chances you can lose.  But isn't the statement you don't make or sell anything unless you sell?  That statement holds true right?


People say well you can lose a lot... well if you bought btc at ten k... even if it drops to 6k... well if you dont sell... you arent down money correct?   For example if someone bought hundred btc at ten thousand dollars a coin and spent a million dollars... well even if it dropped to 7k... sure your are down three hundred k... but you didn't sell yet... so that person isn't down yet right?  I mean if he sells it... yes there is a big loss.  But if he doesnt sell, there isn't any loss right?



And yea i mean like imagine you going to try to earn 5 percent each time.  Imagine sell it all at 5 percent profit.. then you just wait... Then say prices drop to 8k... now you buy another hundred btc or more since you have a million and a bit more with that profit.  Then say your goal is sell once it hit 8500... then you sell all and profit again.  Of course that could take as short as a day or months or even longer... but as long you don't sell ... well you dont lose right?

When i click on accounts on the left side, it shows the same thing as before.  So do i still need to add accounts again after i just installed all these apps again?


I assume not right?


I know you suggested I do this last time when i restored the nano ledger s with my old seed... but because all I did was update ledger live and then the firmware, well the accounts shown in accounts is obviously linked to my current nano ledger s right?  Can't imagine i have to add account again here?

Hey okay I installed all those apps again, btc, btc cash and btc gold.


I also need to add my accounts... manage my accounts again?  I see the message apps installed successfully.  You can now add your accounts.  Do i need to do this again as well?

Also it previously before the firmware update ask me to confirm the identifier.  It was a really long code with a few lines... is that normal?  I had thought it was suppose to be one line only?  It did match my screen, each of those lines.



But right now I need to reinstall all the apps?  When checking ledger site for this update, I thought there was no issue like this?  So everytime firmware update, every time you need to reinstall the apps?

I updated ledger live, then updated the firmware... but now I need to reinstall all the apps?  After firmware updated, it had option to close or reinstall apps.  I clicked close as I was confused why it gave me option to reinstall apps.


I don't see bitcoin, bitcoin cash, bitcoin gold in any of my apps on the nano ledger.  Im on manager tab on ledger live and it doesn't show me having any apps installed.


So i need to install the apps again?  Bitcoin, bitcoin cash and bitcoin gold?  So everytime there is a firmware update, you need to reinstall the apps every single time?

HCP or anyone else, I'm going to update my firmware from 1.6 to 1.6.1 today.


I logged into ledger live, then plugged my nano ledger s to it... entered my pin... then click on manager, and click okay to allow ledger manager... I see option of updating firmware to 1.6.1.  I also see my ledger live is old as well and not updated  So I should first update ledger live first... without my nano ledger s connected to it... right?  Then once I do this, update the firmware on the nano ledger s?  It doesn't matter which one i do first right?  Or its always better to do ledger live first?


When I click on update firmware, it will only ask me if i like to do it... then you double click both buttons... then it does everything right?  Do not unplug it while updating firmware or anything like that right?  Do you or anyone else recall how long it takes to do the full update?  I remember the first update I did a while back... the old updates, it required you to unplug it and plug it back in and it was confusing.  But this update, its very simple right?

Hcp, thanks for the link.


Wow so the last update before this was back in November of last year... that was the last time I did the update before my old nano ledger s a bit later went dim and then months later, didn't turn on anymore.




The new nano ledger i got few weeks ago, I didn't update the firmware as I wanted to put the seed in first etc.


But you are saying good chance after updating the firmware now to 1.6.1, then won't be another one for at least 6 months right? 


But if you don't do an update you are still pretty safe from like what happened with that person who years ago didn't do any update for two years and could no longer update the firmware anymore because it was too old?




Yea i recall you mentioned you have done the firmware upgrade without the seed on you.  But i do know you said you know your seed was one hundred percent correct as you done the reset many times.  But you would never recommend this to anyone such as firmware update if the seed is not on you in general right?  I mean when you did it, you probably weren't home or where your seed was but probably an hour drive at most away right?  Such that you would never do this while you are in another city/state or country and do this right?

This is insane.  I had no idea there were this many types of hardware wallets.  But what allows these companies to make these wallets?


Also, i remember hearing something about this on youtube but couldn't a regular person with tech skills create their own wallet so to speak?  Or something like that?


I heard of bitfi wallet and that is mcafees wallet right?  But thats unsafe?


Now with all those other wallets i never heard of, any case of it being hacked or unsafe?  I mean that certainly feels sketchy having coins in a wallet like one of those not named ledger or trezor right?



But why would anyone buy any wallet that is not ledger or trezor?  When you look at the pricing, most seem to cost even more than the nano ledger and trezor.

Now I want to know is how often does nano ledger do a firmware update?  I think i manually did a firmware update only three times i believe total.  But someone mentioned as long as your firmware was like 1.3 or was it 1.3.1 or higher... then you would not have to worry about not being to upgrade your firmware ever again?  Like if someone has Firmware version 1.6 right now, if say they don't touch it for a few years, would there be a concern years down the line they can't do a firmware update like that person who had a very old nano ledger s firmware and didn't update it for years?  I think nano ledger s fixed this with the update a while back?



Also, is it a more danger if say someone didn't update it for a while and skip to an updated one as oppose to someone doing a firmware update each time?  Example someone who has firmware 1.5 and see there is 1.6 but didn't update it but finally updates it when they see its version 1.7 vs the same person who updates from 1.5 to 1.5.1 to 1.6 to 1.6.1 and finally to 1.7



I will be going outside the US soon again so make sure I update to the latest version before I leave the US right?  And based on previous years... when should the next firmware update be?  I generally stay in another country for half a year or less, then come back to the US and repeat etc.  So whenever I do a firmware update or anything to the ledger... I feel much safer doing it when my seed is with me.



Also I haven't updated ledger live in a few weeks either.  That is the least important thing of all right?  How often does nano ledger s have update for ledger live?  Like once every two weeks or so?  So if you have to do both updates, ledger live and firmware update, which should you do first?  I assume just update ledger live first without connecting ledgers to your laptop first right?  Then connect your ledger s to it and then do firmware update?  Or would it be a mistake updating firmware first with ledger s connected to the laptop... then updating a very old ledger live?



And has there been cases where someone update nano ledger s firmware but did not have the seed?

I asked this a while back.  And I remember the case where one person a while back said he couldn't update his nano ledger s firmware because he didn't touch it for over two years or so.  That person had to get a replacement and I believe they were able to fix the issue since they had the seed.



I also mentioned how last time I got a replacement nano ledger s due to the original one not working anymore.  The firmware at the time was 1.6 i recalled when I connected it to my laptop.  But I think a few days later, the updated firmware is now 1.6.1.  Is that still the current firmware version now?  I didn't updated it weeks ago so will update it soon.  As many of you know here, whenever I do a firmware update, it always make me nervous because I read of cases where it bricks or resets etc.  A while back with my original nano ledger s, i had a firmware mcu error but it was fixed.  



Now its always recommended to do the firmware update only if you have the seed with you right?  When I'm out of the country most of the year, I always am hesistant to do any firmware updates because if it bricks or resets, then I would be without it until I get back to the US.  I leave my seed in the US and don't bring it with me when I'm out of the country.



Now the thing is at the moment, I do have my seed with me.  When I was out of the country last year, after I did a firmware update, it was good.  But then not long later, it had a dimmed display.  This had nothing to do with firmware update.  I then didn't touch or open it for months, only to find out it wouldn't turn on anymore.  And I did not have my seed at the time and for a while, I was without a working nano ledger s... but also my seed was in the US.  But when i got back to the US and had a replacement nano ledger s, i was able to restore it with big help to others here but mainly HCP of course.

Okay so ppl seem to all say don't store it online.


But the method i suggested earlier in the thread


Type seed in password manager like keepass/lastpass.


Upload it to the cloud whether dropbox/gmail.




So the hacker would need


Your dropbox/gmail password


Your master password for keepass/lastpass



So that is two barriers they need... the first is obviously much easier since you hear about emails getting hacked.


So wouldn't this be good enough?




Now imagine a third barrier... use a program like axcrypt which I use to encrypt documents.  Now imagine you encrypt keepass with axcrypt?


Now the hacker would need


dropbox/gmail password

master password for keepass/lastpass

password for axcrypt



Now my issue with three barriers would be well what if you forget your password for axcrypt.  Mine is a long number/letter that was generated from a password manager. 



But the one issue with this would be if you get malware/keylogger on your laptop... then all these two or three barriers would be completely useless then right?  Since if you get that, then the hacker will see your key strokes and everything when you log into dropbox/gmail and keepass/lastpass/axcrypt right?


So this method would work the two or three barrier method with uploading to the cloud, but you need to make sure one hundred percent your laptop doesn't get malware/keylogger right?

Well you say when you trade a lot of different asserts, you can lose a lose of money.  Well even if btc went down to say 7k here... u aren't down any money until you sell though correct?  Nobody loses or wins until they sell.  So you just wait till it goes over that bought price... of course it might never go back or take a long time to go back.



But in my example, i feel like if someone has a million dollars, just buying low and selling high with btc and those top coins... seems safe though?  I mean the odds of btc dropping really low would be hard right?  Now obviously this example i give, i would not use it for other coins not in the top 5 list for example because those are risky.  Like if you stick with the big main coins, btc etc... shouldn't it feel safe?

So it seems like almost every week or so, when i go check coinmarketcap.com, you see a random coin that you never seen before, suddenly make the top125 list in market cap.  Some of these coins even show up top 10 out of no where.  Then many eventually go all the way down the list but still are a high price.



First off, how do these coins suddenly appear from no where?  Were these coins even in the top 50 before they suddenly came in top 25?  Some examples are polkadot.  I saw it came weeks ago suddenly in top 10, now its still top 10.  How did this coin come out of no where?  Also, wrapped bitcoin?  That is over 10k a coin.  Where did that come from?  Also not long ago, a coin named hyperion suddenly was high up the list and stayed pretty high for weeks, then now suddenly its all the way like 100+ etc on the list.



So where do these coins suddenly come from?  Also, how would one be able to get up to date news on coins like this?  It seems like when a coin comes in the top out of no where, seems like for a few days, it keeps going up... then after a while it settles down and drops a lot back down.  So wouldn't it make sense if you see a coin make the top 25 out of nowhere, just buy it and then sell it once it hits a certain percentage of profit?  Of course that could already be the high.  But seems like these coins keep staying that price and higher for few days before dropping?

Just saw this coin suddenly hit the top coin list and wondered where it came from.  So ppl had to buy this coin years ago in order to get in?