I guess in a twisted way that's true.  unfortunately I believe it was pretty clear his intentions we're not the purest from the start.  I believe he got EXTREMELY lucky with the timing of all this and the only thing that kept him from legal problems was the 10 fold increase.  I also believe he held a lot of the coins he got, refunded at the best time for him AND made a profit.  By my guess he lied and fucked the community got lucky with the spike, and profited.  That is nothing but a lucky scammer in my book, he cost a lot of people real potential profit and liquidity and used that for himself, he's a lucky snake in my book.

LOL ya chasing Unicorn Farts from old Tommy boy, the retards we're actually racing against honest to goodness vapourware!!!

Don't forget AMT and Terrahash, they be representing the USA as well!

Edit: And one of the ORIGINAL scams bASIC!!!!!!!

You're right turbo, you did that all by your very own self.  You should be proud, the majority of the forum thinks your a mental midget!

That little pussy is going to sing like a fucking canary when the shit actually hits the fan.  Sonny fucked up by hiring the retard and paid the price while Josh helped dig that big fat hole.  Now Sonny has to keep the useless sack of shit around for fear he will sing like the bitch he is if he's let go.  Either way at some point bitch boy will not be able to keep the big boy pants on and is going to sell old Sonny down the fucking river.  Going to be loads of fun, shits just warming up, be prepared to be shocked and amazed, I predict we aint seen nothing yet!! 

If they make it to that point they should strongly consider using escrow services at the start.  Their reputation is pretty shot IMO and this would help instil confidence in the consumer.  They should be proving to the customer they have changed and the customer should have the chance to give them a second shot at NO RISK to the customer.  They want a "last chance" they should bloody well earn it and start taking the risk with THEIR money!

I wonder if this new BM has them using existing monies to build miners to ship from stock. IF that's the case then nothing has changed really.  Until they dump a bunch of their own money (or investor money) to clean up the shit pile they're in, make things right for original investomers AND build new stock miners they are still just running the same old model.  IMO they need capital to make the switch, I hope they do make the switch but am very leery to be honest.

Righting a sinking ship is usually a very difficult task.  Based on all we have seen publicly from the company I am not personally convinced they have the ability to right the ship.  They need CAPITAL, hard wok, dedication, smarts and LUCK to pull this one out of the fire.

I hope I am wrong and I wish these guys the best of luck turning this thing around.  But ask yourself this, if you were a venture capitalist would you risk your investment on this company?  If they go outside of FF investments (friends and family) then they are going to go through a due diligence phase and the law suits and liabilities (ie unfulfilled orders or refunds) are going to be a huge red flag.  I personally think a lot of investors would look at them as WAY to high risk and that the rewards could never match the risk level (you can't sell more than 100% of you company...)

Fully capitalized entities go out of business everyday in the USA, even more under cap'd ones go under.  Very few of them turn it around.

This is definitely the smartest move (if true) I have seen you guys make publicly.  You have probably saved yourselves more shit than you can imagine by simply doing that.  I assume your council has advised you that in case you lose one, some or all of current and future legal problems that it will be much more believable and easier to ask for leniency because you made a big mistake and once you learned you were making a big mistake you took immediate actions to correct the mistake.  Had you kept taking orders no one would have believed you made a mistake and just "got in over your heads" and you would have lost the ability to plead for leniency based on ignorance.

Little things like this makes the difference (should you lose) between hostile judges/juries and "sympathetic" judges/juries.   Not hard to see which one is better for the defendant if they lose...

It doesn't change what happened and won't get you off the hook for what's done already but it certainly helps minimize the damage and does nothing but give you another option to argue IF you lose cases and need to ask for leniency at some point.

Funny thing is as consumers you guys HAD ALL the power and you were throwing it away faster than they could collect it...  You guys made the pre-order model the easiest fastest solution for these companies to raise money (and what they raised was liabilities and not capital lol) so most of them used it.  Funny thing is once you guys handed over all the money the power switched form you to them.  We all have seen how they have handled the power you gave them, all cherries and ice cream before they got in your pants but then ignore became SoP once they blew their load.

There is a reason why the real world doesn't use pre-orders the reward simply rarely outweighs the risk.  The companies named above prove this point beyond a doubt.  Why do you think very few if any VC's were willing to take all the risk on NRE of BTC mining ASIC, because they knew the risk was so high that the reward could never come close to making it worth while for them...

The investomers of all of those companies got swindled by snake oil salesmen, the last resort is basically use the law to the best of your ability to bring restitution. Good luck guys I hope you get as much back as you can but it is going to be a LONG haul from here likely.

I got BFL'd the other day at McD's, ordered a fucking Big Mac but when I opened the box it had a bite out of it.  When I asked the manager WTF was going on he claimed they had to "test" my Big Mac (I mean they have to make sure it won't kill me instantly) and since I hadn't received that particular Big Mac yet it obviously wasn't mine oh and also to kindly go fuck myself for being a whiny bastard.

Again made up maths to try to prove a point no one was making, SOP for BCP and BFL.  Funny how made up shit makes his point seem stronger. 

I personally would have called it another pathetic strawman attempt but meh you're obviously entitled to your own opinion 

Hey BCP reality is quite a nice place to live, you should come visit us here sometime, you might like it after the shock of your delusion wears off.

Dude, in terms of time frame, the BF Labs legal saga is in the bottom of the first inning.  BF Labs legal shit storm is just warming up, it's going to take a while but they are most likely TRUELY fucked.  It's probably going to real ugly and a lot of lawyers are going to get new cars and swimming pools but BF Labs played a dangerous game to long, all there is to do now is sit back and laugh as the implosion unfolds. 

pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase, facts schmacts, you can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!  But then again BCP loves to ignore facts.

Yawn...

Keep showing your lack of intelligence and your ignorance.  Myself and others are enjoying laughing at you.

I've explained it twice to you and STILL you don't seem to understand, oh well, stupid trolls gonna troll stupidly.

I guess reading comprehension is an ability you're not to good at either.  Ok trolly I'll break it down for you AGAIN since you missed it the first time.

You claim to have the ability to corner douche bags in an argument and claim your "good" at it.   As I mentioned before you have clearly shown that you actually do not have the ABILITY to do such and are certainly not good at it.  That constitutes making false claims about your ability.  I even bolded it for you in the original post to try to help you with you're lack of reading comprehension skills.  Sadly I guess my ability to get douche bags to understand basic English sentences is not as good as I had hoped.

Is it a little easier to understand having it explained a second time Trolly?

No need for me to do that, I am not the one making false claims about their abilities.

You must be having a bad few days or your real life skills don't translate digitally very well because you've pretty much shown the exact opposite in your short time here.

You should definitely do some research bro.  Here's a little light reading for you.  Take a look at the bold its only one of the many reasons HF principals could be fucked.  This entire forum has no idea how the REAL business world works.  The very act of using CUSTOMER pre-order money for product development and general overhead expenses (salary, rent etc etc) will allow a lawyer to easily prove the LLC was under cap'd.  That will pierce the corporate veil and could very easily leave the principals on the hook personally.

United States[edit]
See also: US corporate law
In the United States, corporate veil piercing is the most litigated issue in corporate law.[24] Although courts are reluctant to hold an active shareholder liable for actions that are legally the responsibility of the corporation, even if the corporation has a single shareholder, they will often do so if the corporation was markedly noncompliant, or if holding only the corporation liable would be singularly unfair to the plaintiff. In most jurisdictions, no bright-line rule exists and the ruling is based on common law precedents. In the United States, different theories, most important "alter ego" or "instrumentality rule", attempted to create a piercing standard. Mostly, they rest upon three basic prongs—namely "unity of interest and ownership", "wrongful conduct" and "proximate cause". However, the theories failed to articulate a real-world approach which courts could directly apply to their cases. Thus, courts struggle with the proof of each prong and rather analyze all given factors. This is known as "totality of circumstances".[25]

There is also the matter of what jurisdiction the corporation is incorporated in if the corporation is authorized to do business in more than one state. All corporations have one specific state (their "home" state) to which they are incorporated as a "domestic" corporation, and if they operate in other states, they would apply for authority to do business in those other states as a "foreign" corporation. In determining whether or not the corporate veil may be pierced, the courts are required to use the laws of the corporation's home state. This issue can be significant, for example, the rules for allowing a corporate veil to be pierced are much more liberal in California than they are in Nevada, thus, the owner(s) of a corporation operating in California would be subject to different potential for the corporation's veil to be pierced if the corporation was to be sued, depending on whether the corporation was a California domestic corporation or was a Nevada foreign corporation operating in California.

Generally, the plaintiff has to prove that the incorporation was merely a formality and that the corporation neglected corporate formalities and protocols, such as voting to approve major corporate actions in the context of a duly authorized corporate meeting. This is quite often the case when a corporation facing legal liability transfers its assets and business to another corporation with the same management and shareholders. It also happens with single person corporations that are managed in a haphazard manner. As such, the veil can be pierced in both civil cases and where regulatory proceedings are taken against a shell corporation.

Factors for courts to consider[edit]
Absence or inaccuracy of corporate records;
Concealment or misrepresentation of members;
Failure to maintain arm's length relationships with related entities;
Failure to observe corporate formalities in terms of behavior and documentation;
Failure to pay dividends;
Intermingling of assets of the corporation and of the shareholder;
Manipulation of assets or liabilities to concentrate the assets or liabilities;
Non-functioning corporate officers and/or directors;
Significant undercapitalization of the business entity (capitalization requirements vary based on industry, location, and specific company circumstances);
Siphoning of corporate funds by the dominant shareholder(s);
Treatment by an individual of the assets of corporation as his/her own;
Was the corporation being used as a "façade" for dominant shareholder(s) personal dealings; alter ego theory;
It is important to note that not all of these factors need to be met in order for the court to pierce the corporate veil. Further, some courts might find that one factor is so compelling in a particular case that it will find the shareholders personally liable.

Here's another interesting piece,
A simple example would be where a businessman has left his job as a director and has signed a contract to not compete with the company he has just left for a period of time. If he sets up a company which competed with his former company, technically it would be the company and not the person competing. But it is likely a court would say that the new company was just a "sham", a "fraud" or some other phrase,[1] and would still allow the old company to sue the man for breach of contract. A court would look beyond the legal fiction to the reality of the situation.

Come on people when are you all going to learn to understand the real business world.  A company simply cannot take millions of dollars of customer money, fail to develop a product and go bankrupt and tell the customers sorry we tried but to bad...  Even if it was all honest mistakes, that isn't how it works, if they don't pay everyone back the lawyers will pierce the corporate veil and go after these clowns.  An LLC isn't an instant "I WIN" button for the share holders.

My apologies for using the generic word prostitution instead of solicitation, you're arguing semantics now.  Point is why doesn't the prostitute simply provide a terms and condition if it so easy to write one that contravenes local, state or federal laws and regulations.  That way the John doesn't get charged and they are both completely legal because they wrote some bullshit T's & C's

I bet the fellows at AMT also believed like you do, but a harsh reality is probably about to set in.  Argue all you want but you can not "pencil whip" the FTC out of the equation.  In fact one of the reasons the FTC exists is so companies don't prey on the consumer with this bullshit.

Unfortunately everyone not being made whole is a pretty good possibility.  ALL the lawyers are going to make the bank on this one sorry guys.

Look at this from a business PoV and what is likely at this point (all of this is my opinion)
1) They under capitalized the start up (BIG fucking no no in the real world, it makes piercing the corporate veil easier and incidentally one of the leading reasons why the corporate veil is pierced).
2) They spent a lot (or most) of the customer money on overhead, design/manufacture and inventory (another BIG fucking no no)
3) As a result of 1 & 2 they don't have money left for refunds without killing themselves
4) Legal problems that have potentially just begun, believe it or not the class action getting certified may just be the least of their legal troubles in the coming months and years.
5) NO NEW REVENUE AND BILLS PROBABLY PILING UP FAST. (I hope the owners aren't drawing a salary and I hope even more it's not a big fat one...)

Doesn't take a genius to see where this sorry sack of shit company is going.

By your logic prostitution is legal.  A man with $40 really needs a blow job, he meets a lady that really needs $40, they enter into an unwritten contract for services.  I guess everyone ever charged with prostitution forgot to mention the defence of "but they signed our terms and conditions"...

I actually believe that the plaintiffs lawyers will be extremely happy if they defence uses that strategy as it does nothing but help make the plaintiffs case.

Come on bro, you can't just write a bunch of shit on your website and then tell the FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION to fuck off, well you can but it likely won't end well for the company...