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681  Economy / Speculation / Re: Will the popping miningbubble cause price to collapse? on: January 21, 2015, 07:58:19 AM
guys, you are slightly offtopic ... not entirely but slightly.

I agree w you.  Equalization/ stability will happen when the Bitcoin economy matches the mining rate.  Which is never since the rate is an arbitrary set rate and not determined by market demand
682  Economy / Economics / Re: Why does anyone pay attention to people that study "economics"? on: January 21, 2015, 07:53:25 AM
Umm that's besides the point
Scroll and read what he wrote, then my response.  In the case the money doesn't get redistributed with new members entering the population.  E.g. If the fisherman made more money than everyone else, and then his kids created a fishing empire.  After many generations, they will monopolize the wealth of the island. 

How can that happen ?  How could fishermen get rich on the back of poor people ?   How could others not decide to get into the lucrative business of fishing ?  That can only if there is an enforcement of a privilege to give the fishing industry to just a few.

In principle, everybody can start fishing.  If it is such a lucrative business that it makes people rich, then it will attract more fishermen, until fishing becomes an activity with a small margin.  First because there will be less fish to fish if everybody starts fishing, and second because the supply of fish will be more than the demand (you can eat 3 fish a day, but not 30 fish a day).

Only if a monopoly to fishing, or quota, or whatever, are granted, the fishing empire remains a closed business.

This has nothing to do with money.

If the fisherman family will hold all of the money, then they can only sell their fish for that money amongst themselves.  The others not having access to that money can then not buy any fish either.  They may then use other means of intermediate exchange amongst themselves, such as shells.  The fishermen sitting on their stash of money which can only buy fish, will then be nothing with their money.  If they want to obtain something else from the others (like coconuts) they better pay them, in their money in as much as others are interested in buying fish from them (the only thing they can obtain with that kind of money) or the fishermen will have to obtain shells, in which they are poor.

You have a mercantilistic idea that holding a stash of monetary asset means being rich.  It doesn't.  It does only in as much as that monetary asset can buy a lot of value.  In your example, the monetary asset will only be able to buy fish.  It will be worth whatever fish is worth.


You are asking why some business is in more demand than others? Or some why people have more skill than others?  It doesn't matter how it happens.  I'm making an example to demonstrate a simple economic principle.

I can't show an example from real life because I can't think of when a money supply was capped finitely.

But examples where an closed island economy tend towards class stratification is feudal Japan & England.  And lots of example of monopoly and inequality due to consolidation effects.

As the islands population increase more economic activity is required to sustain the inhabitants.  You get to a stage where there is exponential growth followed by specialization.  So money is required for trade.  Whoever has more money has more purchasing power.  How is this mercantilistic?  They are stuck on an island.  If anything I'm describing Capitalism. 

Also it's not my story.  Some other poster made up this story and said its better to cap the money supply.  I only introduced the idea of a growing population and argued how this leads to monopoly.  Because I think he erroreously only thinking of a static population

Basically I'm arguing for an inflating money supply to meet demands of growing economy.  Basically what we've witnessed in history.  If you wanna argue the opposite it's your burden to find examples

683  Economy / Economics / Re: Why does anyone pay attention to people that study "economics"? on: January 21, 2015, 07:29:22 AM
The fresh printed money are all backed by assets, they have valuables backing them, and the banks get those money will use them carefully to not trigger inflation, they inject them into something that is not in CPI

Not directly.  What it does, is to inflate the price of the assets that are bought.  The assets bought by the FED or the ECB or another central bank against freshly printed money is nothing else but an extra demand for these assets which is not compensated by a lesser demand for other assets, as it is bought with money that didn't exist before, and hence is not re-allocated to something else.
Normally, a new demand for asset A implies a lesser demand for asset B, so that the overall price level can stay more or less constant if the offer is constant.  If new money can create a demand for asset A without lowering the already existing demand for asset B with existing money, then the price of asset A will rise.

In other words, a central bank buying up assets increases artificially the price of the assets it buys, and is in fact distributing seigniorage to those that were holding already those assets.  If a central bank buys up securities, then the price of those securities is inflated.  If a central bank buys up mortgages, then the price of those mortgages increases.  If a central bank would buy up land (John Law's initial proposal), then the price of land would inflate, and would render rich people who own land (and render poor people who need to buy or use land).  If a central bank would buy up a certain stock, then the price of that stock would be inflated, and owners of that stock would get the seigniorage. 

It takes a while before the people that got the seigniorage start spending it, this is why the modern FED techniques have the inflation effect of their printing policies only work out much later.  In the mean time, those obtaining the seigniorage are well-served and get rich on the back of those not holding the bought-up assets.

In fact, as most securities bought up by the FED are held by banks, it are the banks who profit most from the seigniorage and the inflation of the bought-up securities.  In as much as it are state bonds, the state can debase those bonds by just issuing more of them, and it is the state, and those on who the state will spend those revenues, who will get the seigniorage.  However, these are probably faster in spending their seigniorage into the market, and inflation will follow faster.  The more the FED buys up long-term assets, the later in time they place the corresponding inflation.  As I said, mostly banks profit from that.  Which is not a surprise given that the FED is a bank cartel :-)


Not quite.  First of all, the Fed is not a banking cartel.  Second, of course banks should make profit when they act as dealers.  Nothing onerous about this.  Third, the purpose for buying securities is to increase reserves of bank so the money gets injected into economy through lending.  (Although IMO, I think this mechanism is not effective).  How this occurs is the securities move off the banks balance onto the Feds balance sheet.  There's no other way for the Fed to get money into the private sector.  

The other way for money to get into private sector is deficit spending which is another topic.  That has to do with Congress not the Fed.  But the Fed can facilitate budget by monetizing the debt using FOMC.  However, St Louis Fed disagrees that this is their intention behind QE.  The Fed is targeting inflation and unemployment rates.  When they hit their targets they start selling the securities and interest rates go back up

684  Economy / Speculation / Re: Will the popping miningbubble cause price to collapse? on: January 21, 2015, 06:05:37 AM
The topic of 'inflation' seems to be popping up a lot lately.  Maybe I was hiding under a rock at the time, but I don't recall much discussion of inflation when it was 50BTC per block.

I'd like to see more distribution of mining much more than I'd care about the actual Hash rate or the coin creation rate, the latter of which has already been pointed out above is a known and predictable value.  In fact if you do the numbers on the 'inflation', it's not much different than real world inflation for many countries (I mean real inflation as opposed to Gov't statistics - the kind you can measure from you staple purchases in the food basket).  Next halving will put it ahead of FIAT in that sense, not that it's any perfect indicator of FIAT value.





With 50coins a block back then price for a coin was a few dollars so a block found was worth a few hundred bucks. A block found today at 200$ prices is worth 5000$ - and that's money being taken from the market - so that's maybe that difference.

5000$ taken from the market every 10 minutes!
Yes, we short!

But everyone knows that. When you buy BTC today you buy knowing that there will be 3600 more tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after... How can you buy without pricing in inflation i have no idea. It's different with fiat where you have no idea what it'll be and can't plan for it. e.g. you make investments based on a 2% inflation but get smacked with a 10% inflation or 50% if you're in Ukraine.

If you know that and you buy then you lose money.  LOL
685  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: January 21, 2015, 06:03:36 AM
Tell us again how in your view Vikram Pandit is stupid and ill-informed.
How many bitcoins did he buy?
I have no way of knowing that but I am quite certain he did not invest in Coinbase while expecting BTC to tank.

Indeed, it is puzzling why Coinbase, of all bitcon companies, is getting so much investment.  Perhaps it is going to be more than just a bitcoin payment processor?

By the way, tell us again how in your view Warren Buffett is stupid and ill-informed.

Also by the way: I still would not dare to guess what will happen to the price of bitcoin in the medium term.   There may be another market opening, or there may not be.  How would I know?

They are trying to do a USD wallet app to compete w PayPal, Google wallet, apple pay.  Their business model doesn't rely on solely Bitcoins price



There is association indeed.

Price is related with confidence and faith. Confidence and faith will impact acceptance. Acceptance will affect the number of wallets opened at coinbase. There is a well connected chain between price and the success of coinbase.

Not if they can get their USD wallet out there.  Their business model takes fees on transactions.  They only lose money if they hold Bitcoin while the price drops.  Whether they can get user traction is another story

USD wallet is NOT a selling point but a safety hedge for coinbase.

It's probably a selling point to the investors more than Bitcoin.
686  Economy / Speculation / Re: Will the popping miningbubble cause price to collapse? on: January 21, 2015, 05:55:20 AM
The topic of 'inflation' seems to be popping up a lot lately.  Maybe I was hiding under a rock at the time, but I don't recall much discussion of inflation when it was 50BTC per block.

I'd like to see more distribution of mining much more than I'd care about the actual Hash rate or the coin creation rate, the latter of which has already been pointed out above is a known and predictable value.  In fact if you do the numbers on the 'inflation', it's not much different than real world inflation for many countries (I mean real inflation as opposed to Gov't statistics - the kind you can measure from you staple purchases in the food basket).  Next halving will put it ahead of FIAT in that sense, not that it's any perfect indicator of FIAT value.





Bitcoin is 9% inflation and USD is 1.5%.  Inflation has to do with exchange rate.  New bitcoins coming into existence means equals amount of dollars must come into Bitcoin to support the price.

Long bear market is a sign that new dollars isn't coming in
687  Economy / Economics / Re: Could/should Bitcoin be changed to stabilize it? How? on: January 21, 2015, 05:44:14 AM
Just peg it to a major currency.  I don't know who could do this though. 

I was only proposing moderating the fluctuations, but yes, finding a way to fix the exchange rate would do that.

But that's really just sort of a way of restating the problem, isn't it? 

The question is - HOW to do it, and who has the power to do it with Bitcoin?



Write a code that pegs it to USD, then have everyone hard fork.

If you want to know why major currencies are stable compared to minor ones.  It's because the corresponding economies/ govts are stable.
688  Economy / Speculation / Re: Will the popping miningbubble cause price to collapse? on: January 21, 2015, 05:28:26 AM
Bitcoin's network is safe even if the price falls to US$50.

Why the high incentive for miners then in the first place?
Bitcoin bagholders are becoming more and more contradicting with what they said a few months ago!




People will convince themselves of anything when they are losing money.  Reality is difficult to face
689  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: January 21, 2015, 05:26:44 AM
Tell us again how in your view Vikram Pandit is stupid and ill-informed.
How many bitcoins did he buy?
I have no way of knowing that but I am quite certain he did not invest in Coinbase while expecting BTC to tank.

Indeed, it is puzzling why Coinbase, of all bitcon companies, is getting so much investment.  Perhaps it is going to be more than just a bitcoin payment processor?

By the way, tell us again how in your view Warren Buffett is stupid and ill-informed.

Also by the way: I still would not dare to guess what will happen to the price of bitcoin in the medium term.   There may be another market opening, or there may not be.  How would I know?

They are trying to do a USD wallet app to compete w PayPal, Google wallet, apple pay.  Their business model doesn't rely on solely Bitcoins price



There is association indeed.

Price is related with confidence and faith. Confidence and faith will impact acceptance. Acceptance will affect the number of wallets opened at coinbase. There is a well connected chain between price and the success of coinbase.

Not if they can get their USD wallet out there.  Their business model takes fees on transactions.  They only lose money if they hold Bitcoin while the price drops.  Whether they can get user traction is another story
690  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: January 21, 2015, 05:18:48 AM
Tell us again how in your view Vikram Pandit is stupid and ill-informed.
How many bitcoins did he buy?
I have no way of knowing that but I am quite certain he did not invest in Coinbase while expecting BTC to tank.

Indeed, it is puzzling why Coinbase, of all bitcon companies, is getting so much investment.  Perhaps it is going to be more than just a bitcoin payment processor?

By the way, tell us again how in your view Warren Buffett is stupid and ill-informed.

Also by the way: I still would not dare to guess what will happen to the price of bitcoin in the medium term.   There may be another market opening, or there may not be.  How would I know?

They are trying to do a USD wallet app to compete w PayPal, Google wallet, apple pay.  Their business model doesn't rely on solely Bitcoins price

691  Economy / Economics / Re: Why does anyone pay attention to people that study "economics"? on: January 21, 2015, 05:08:27 AM
No shit, but that's not what I'm pointing out.  In a closed system all exchanges are zero sum.  So over time there will be only one winner.  Its like the game Monopoly.  

These are two misconceptions.

The first misconception is that an exchange (of anything else but a monetary item) is a zero-sum game.  It isn't.

If I have two apples, and you have two eggs, then my satisfaction is lower with my two apples, and your satisfaction is lower with your two eggs, than if we exchange an apple for an egg.  If we do that, we are motivated to do so because we have a higher degree of satisfaction after the exchange than before.  So *value* (= the amount of satisfaction, or the decrease in amount of frustration) for each of us increased when we traded.

Do not confuse "price" with "value".  Price is the exchange rate.  Value is satisfaction.  Price is the equilibrium where the amount of satisfaction increase for both partners is, in their eyes, equal, in the exchange.

We both had an increase in value, just by exchanging an apple for an egg.  We did this, exactly because of that reason.  So just this exchange already created value.

The second misconception is of course that there is production.  If there is production, there is of course value creation (unless the production is inefficient and generates losses: the stuff you make generates less satisfaction than the stuff you used to make it).  If production is exchanged for other production (the basic capitalistic tenet) there is evidently value increase.

The only place where exchange is a zero-sum game is in the exchange of speculative assets, because these items only carry the speculative value of a price, and have no intrinsic capacity to satisfy needs (have no value of usage or consumption).



Umm that's besides the point

Scroll and read what he wrote, then my response.  In the case the money doesn't get redistributed with new members entering the population.  E.g. If the fisherman made more money than everyone else, and then his kids created a fishing empire.  After many generations, they will monopolize the wealth of the island.  (If wealth is measured in money) If the island is a closed ecosystem and no trade comes from the outside eventually you will have class division and ruling clans. Aka monopoly

The exchange rate would be the relation between total amount of goods and services (GDP) divided by money supply.  You are correct that the inhabitants should see deflating prices over time.  But that is not good.  In fact it's terrible for the kids born into poor families as their wages will reflect deflationary prices and eventually you'd have extreme class stratification. 

It's zero sum if the point is to make money in a fixed money supply system. 



692  Economy / Economics / Re: Serious flaws in Bitcoin monetary policy on: January 21, 2015, 04:17:52 AM
My opinion on Euro is that it was mainly formed formed for political motives between France & Germany.

But for the Euro members like Greece had to default because they had no money printing mechanism to deal that crisis because their debt is not denominated in their own currency.

But I think the Euro was mainly a benefit to German economy.  It's raised the buying power of the periphery countries and lowered prices of German goods.  For example, people in Greece, Sapin, etc.  took on debt to buy German cars

But I don't follow forex so I don't know much about it.
693  Economy / Economics / Re: Serious flaws in Bitcoin monetary policy on: January 21, 2015, 04:06:52 AM
What QE probably did was make bonds expensive so the funds rebalanced their portfolios towards equities, hence the bull market

Ah ! I wondered about that. I realised that stocks were soaring due to QE and not the underlying corporate growth, but I couldn't really see what the actual mechanism was that drove money into the stockmarket. (Presumable there's only 4 places to go - stocks, bonds, cash or commodities. Under ZIRP, cash has no ROI, bonds are expensive as you point out, commodities have crashed so all thats left is stocks).

The reason for QE is mainly to inject liquidity in the reserves can continue to make loans.  However, it didn't do that at all.

Do you think the system is headed for trouble ?

I'd be interested to see what you thought of this guy's commentary. It's quite long (about an hour) but very listenable...

http://www.silverdoctors.com/jim-willie-swiss-dump-the-euro-go-long-gold/


I think the trouble has more to do with rise of shadow banking and derivatives.  A central bank like Fed has power to do is raise or lower the overnight interest rates or Fed Funds rate.  And now they can do QE, but not much else.

What happens in modern banking is that created new money is created when banks create loans. The whole fractional reserve thing is incorrect.  The Bank of England already put out a paper saying this.  Banks create loans THEN they look for reserves after.  They borrow the reserves from other banks.  If they can't get it by end of day they borrow it from the Central Bank. 

But as we know there's plenty of reserves.  So it's not for lack of reserves it's lack of good borrowers.

Where does shadow banking come in?  Well, not so good borrowers, like people who lack collateral or credit rating.  They don't go to commercial banks they go to shadow banks because there's less regulation there.  In the shadow bank sector the banks can't go to the Fed and borrow reserves so they go to the repo market.  Shadow banking ( which can also occur inside a traditional commercial bank like JPM or Citi) uses tools like securitization, (CDOs, ABS, ABCP), and derivatives (CDS).  In this system all the assets are highly leveraged and that's why an external shock can topple a bank.

Shadow banking is a recent phenomenon, With dramatic growth from 2000 fueling the housing bubble.  In 2008, prior to the GFC more than 50% of money was created from within shadow banking.  The St. Louis Fed has a paper about shadow banks if you want to read more.

But essentially, regardless of the Fed, money gets created either in commercial banks or shadow banks.  But the Fed only has minimal with commercial banks by adjusting the Fed Funds rate.  The systemic comes from the interconnectedness of commercial banks to shadow banks

It's unfair to blame central banks for everything that's happens in banking because regulations come from legislature/ Congress.  The difficulty in regulating shadow banking is that by definition it's off balance sheet.  So Dodd Frank, Vockker Rule, ring fencing, etc..  All those regulations only affect commercial banks.

The whole Bitcoin 1:1 reserve ratio, blah, blah is a non sequitur because it's so left field from how the entire financial industry operates.  In a thought experiment: if Bitcoin replaced the Central Bank, and people need money they would still go borrow it somewhere.  But without a Central Bank there's no lender of last resort.  Thats the big difference.  The system would still be fragile except you don't have this entity to print money and inject liquidity in recessionary times and raise interest to suck the money out of the system in times of inflation.




694  Economy / Speculation / Re: NYSE invests in bitcoin ecosystem on: January 21, 2015, 02:25:46 AM
I think it's because coin base just released some USD web wallet.  Even if Bitcoin meltsdown their business can survive
695  Economy / Economics / Re: Serious flaws in Bitcoin monetary policy on: January 21, 2015, 01:58:28 AM

I don't think you've quite understood me properly.

I'm talking about the fact that a monetary medium with a fixed or limited supply does not have any bearing on how "elastic" a financial system can be that uses that medium as a monetary base.

You don't need an economics degree to understand that - just an observation that when we were on a gold standard, people didn't have to wander around with lumps of yellow metal in their pockets just to buy a packet of cornflakes. Nor did the numerical balances in depositors accounts have to deplete so that new loans could be made to creditors.

Thats because a modern economy is complex and moves from "narrow" to "broad" money through various stages of abstraction and leverage. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply). The same thing would (and does) apply in  crypto-based economy.

You actually complicate the things very much, that is not how banks loan out money, the collateral varies from credit to credit to compensate for the risk.

For a house mortgage the collateral is the house itself and perhaps some downpayment, if needed.

We've maybe got our terminology 'transatlanticfied' here. In my country we'd call that "loan security" and the principle I described is indeed exactly how banks loan out money.

What you've understood as "collateral" is simply a condition of the mortgage agreement that minimises the lending risk. The "house" does not form part of the bank's capital reserves (though having it as loan security may enhance the leverage available on those reserves). I agree that the loan manifests itself as an asset and that such 'assets' can, to various extents, contribute to the bank's capital reserve, but none of that has anything to do with the basic principle of whether a limited supply monetary medium can serve as part of "M0" in an elastic financial system. There still has to be a progression from base to credit money (or "narrow" to "broad" money as the M0...M(x) would express it).

In the modern fiat system, this 'hierarchy' became somewhat obscured because, as you pointed out in your answer, the types and grades of asset that qualify as 'capital reserve' have diversified so much that the definition of what constitutes "base money" is much more obscure.

Nonetheless, the principle is still very much there, just with a more fancy name. It's now known as "Tier 1 Capital"...http://blog.usbasel3.com/slr-basel3-leverage-comparison/

(P.S. A 1975 Fender Strat valued at around $400 in 1975, $800 in 1990, $1500 in 2000. Today you'll be lucky if you can pick up just the neck for that price, so probably better or as good as most triple A bonds  Wink )
 



You are correct elasticity just means the money supply can expand contract.  Most money these days come from commercial banks making loans. 

The problem is though it's easier for banks to create money than destroy it.  They can't close out the loans unless the borrower pays it back.  What they do is " deleverage". The reason for QE is mainly to inject liquidity in the reserves can continue to make loans.  However, it didn't do that at all.  That's why earlier I said QE was a failure.  If you are interested in this topic I suggest Richard Koo and his theory of balance sheet recession

What QE probably did was make bonds expensive so the funds rebalanced their portfolios towards equities, hence the bull market
696  Economy / Economics / Re: Why does anyone pay attention to people that study "economics"? on: January 20, 2015, 09:26:47 PM

NO what happens to the fixed money supply.  Because if its not redistributed then the families that have more kids gets diluted.  This creates disincentive to have kids, and therefore danger of endangerment.  If the money gets redistributed then people have incentive to have more kids to get more money but less per person.

Those that are more prosperous (those producing goods/providing services that are low in supply and high in demand) and can afford them will most likely be the ones having kids.

Having more kids is no justification for stealing from someone else.

Then you have problems of monopoly

How does a fixed money supply result in monopolies?

The prosperous families accumulate more money leaving the rest with less.  Thats every capitalist system.  But its worse when no new money is introduced.  The kids born into the lower class families start from disadvantaged position

Those who supply more demands should have more money.  Those with less money have to figure out what products and services those with more money want and then produce or provide them.

No shit, but that's not what I'm pointing out.  In a closed system all exchanges are zero sum.  So over time there will be only one winner.  Its like the game Monopoly. 
697  Economy / Economics / Re: Why does anyone pay attention to people that study "economics"? on: January 20, 2015, 07:50:47 PM

NO what happens to the fixed money supply.  Because if its not redistributed then the families that have more kids gets diluted.  This creates disincentive to have kids, and therefore danger of endangerment.  If the money gets redistributed then people have incentive to have more kids to get more money but less per person.

Those that are more prosperous (those producing goods/providing services that are low in supply and high in demand) and can afford them will most likely be the ones having kids.

Having more kids is no justification for stealing from someone else.

Then you have problems of monopoly

How does a fixed money supply result in monopolies?

The prosperous families accumulate more money leaving the rest with less.  Thats every capitalist system.  But its worse when no new money is introduced.  The kids born into the lower class families start from disadvantaged position
698  Economy / Economics / Re: Why does anyone pay attention to people that study "economics"? on: January 20, 2015, 07:05:32 PM
And what happens when people have kids and the population grows?

Then the same amount of money will be able to buy more (deflation).



That leads to hoarding
699  Economy / Economics / Re: Why does anyone pay attention to people that study "economics"? on: January 20, 2015, 07:04:57 PM
And what happens when people have kids and the population grows?

They would depend on their parents to provide for them until they became self sufficient.

NO what happens to the fixed money supply.  Because if its not redistributed then the families that have more kids gets diluted.  This creates disincentive to have kids, and therefore danger of endangerment.  If the money gets redistributed then people have incentive to have more kids to get more money but less per person.

Those that are more prosperous (those producing goods/providing services that are low in supply and high in demand) and can afford them will most likely be the ones having kids.

Having more kids is no justification for stealing from someone else.

Then you have problems of monopoly
700  Economy / Economics / Re: Why does anyone pay attention to people that study "economics"? on: January 20, 2015, 06:02:30 PM

This would allow the inhabitants to exchange their goods and services with each other fairly.  Some would learn to fish, some would collect rain water, some would farm, some would build dwellings, others would collect firewood.  People on the island would be able to change their "professions" based on the supply of and the demand for the various products and services.

The biggest difference between Austrians and Keynesians is related to the supply of money.  I believe a fixed supply is the only fair way to allocate limited resources.  If the island's inhabitants were to designate a few individuals to be bankers to control the supply of money, then they would be able to create more money, allowing them to consume products and services that others produce and provide while contributing nothing of value to others on the island.

And what happens when people have kids and the population grows?

They would depend on their parents to provide for them until they became self sufficient.

NO what happens to the fixed money supply.  Because if its not redistributed then the families that have more kids gets diluted.  This creates disincentive to have kids, and therefore danger of endangerment.  If the money gets redistributed then people have incentive to have more kids to get more money but less per person.
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