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1361  Economy / Speculation / Re: Do you really believe that Bitcoin will hit 1,000,000 on: July 10, 2014, 02:08:54 AM
I don't wanna go off on a tangent.  But "conspiracy theory" is never an explanation for anything.  The simple reason for why monetary base expands because there is demand for it.  The capital market demands money so the money markets supply it.  No big secret about this
1362  Economy / Economics / Re: Inflation supports economic growth. Prove otherwise in this thread! on: July 09, 2014, 11:37:15 PM
Koolaid huh?  Yeah thats cute.  Inflation is currently 2.1%.  Did you pull 6% from your butt or is it based on data?

And why you keep talking about bitcoin when im talking about economics?  You think you buying bitcoin will cause deflation?  Or people actually prefer deflation? LOL.  Theres koolaid here but im not the one drinking it

Your reading comprehension is atrocious. Go back, read over all of our ex

Inflation, if measured in the historical manner rather than however the government decides is necessary to hide the true state of the economy, is around 6%. http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts

Really shadowstats?   Thats where you got your numbers from?  Oh lord  Roll Eyes
1363  Economy / Economics / Re: Inflation supports economic growth. Prove otherwise in this thread! on: July 09, 2014, 08:10:03 PM
Koolaid huh?  Yeah thats cute.  Inflation is currently 2.1%.  Did you pull 6% from your butt or is it based on data?

And why you keep talking about bitcoin when im talking about economics?  You think you buying bitcoin will cause deflation?  Or people actually prefer deflation? LOL.  Theres koolaid here but im not the one drinking it

1364  Economy / Economics / Re: Could take 5-8 years to shrink Fed portfolio: Yellen on: July 09, 2014, 07:12:10 PM
Its the individuals choice to save cash.  Most people only save cash short term to buy something.  Its not wise to save cash if you plan to hold for long term
1365  Economy / Speculation / Re: Winklevoss Bitcoin ETF effect in price on: July 09, 2014, 05:46:57 PM
NLFX got dumped after that GS upgrade.  Its dropping now
1366  Economy / Economics / Re: Inflation supports economic growth. Prove otherwise in this thread! on: July 09, 2014, 05:40:25 PM
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.

You got it backwards.  Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy.  Booms & busts happen as business cycles.

The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?

... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.

Its not semantics.   Market forces are very difficult to manipulate.   Inflation/ deflation are measurements.   They are symptoms not causes.

Saving or spending can be reactive.  But how do you mandate that?   Can't force people to save or spend if they don't want to.   The only thing the Fed can do is raise/lower interest rates.  Govt can save or spend if Congress approves budget

Look up "semantics".

I didn't say anything about forcing behavior. I said individuals deal with inflation by taking on debt. Look how many people take out long term debt in bitcoin? No one that expects to pay it back!

The Fed does more than just manipulate interest rates. They buy debt that no one would, for prices that no one would pay. That's equivalent to printing money and distributing it to banks. That is direct inflation of the monetary base. The devaluation of currency is the symptom. The inflation is the cause. The last audit also showed huge loans to many well connected banks without repayment. More direct inflation. Even if there ever is a repayment, any loan the Fed creates is inflation. The deflation comes when it's repaid.

Buying bitcoin =/= taking out long term debt.  Taking on debt means borrowing

The Fed has been doing QE for a while.  Last time I check no inflation.  They want inflation but its just not happening

You have so little understanding of economics.  Your theoretical basis is wrong and you ignore what is actually happening in reality.  They can print as money as they want but if the money is stuck in the financial sector and never reaches the real economy then no inflation is going to happen.



1367  Economy / Speculation / Re: Do you really believe that Bitcoin will hit 1,000,000 on: July 09, 2014, 05:24:34 PM
A self taught armchair economist doubting people that have studied this subject all their life.  Hmm.   Who should is more credible ?😁



You don't know how I got my knowledge, nor my profession, nor the exact type of chair I prefer. I am certainly not interested in discussing things in the form of flinging names of professors around. If you guide your investments from what the best known and educated people around say, you would not have bitcoins yet.

Wait the world bank are professors? 

There's no reason to think GDP can't be measured.  Its been measured for a long time.  And last time I checked the World Bank is not neo-Keynesian, although some individuals may be

IMF policy is certainly NOT Keynsian.  They were the ones pushing for austerity to the eurozone.  Remember?

I'm not even talking about bitcoin here.  I'm the World Bank has more credibility than you when it comes to economics
1368  Economy / Speculation / Re: Winklevoss Bitcoin ETF effect in price on: July 09, 2014, 03:22:30 PM
You cannot short what you cannot borrow.

What would you charge to loan out your bitcoin, in USD terms?  I would very much worry about getting it all back.

There is a hefty premium to pay for the right to get stuck short in a squeeze.

I've heard of the greater fool theory, but this would require the mother of all fools.  MoAF.

I can do it w options with defined risk.

Premium is going to be a bitch.


You can sell calls when IV is high.     Or buy put verticals.   Or sell call verticals.

Its only foolish if you don't know how to do it.   I take bearish positions all the time.   The only hard part is the timing.   But usually price crash harder than it goes up.   Escalator up elevator down type thing

There are some traders who mostly short or take bearish positions.   I think they're licking their chops to short bitcoin.  Its got all the ingredients

There's always somebody on the other side of your trade

Yup thats true.  I think what will happen is that it'll get pumped for 1-3 months while hedge funds build their short positions.  Then they use media to scare off retail and dump the price causing a crash.  It happens all time when there is a cult stock w irrational exuberance
1369  Economy / Speculation / Re: Do you really believe that Bitcoin will hit 1,000,000 on: July 09, 2014, 04:11:56 AM
A self taught armchair economist doubting people that have studied this subject all their life.  Hmm.   Who should is more credible ?😁

1370  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin will rise and everything else will die? on: July 09, 2014, 03:20:30 AM
You realize alts are just based on same code of bitcoin.  Bitcoin can't do anything that an alt can't do

Theres no fundamental difference.   Only difference is the amount of speculation.   If alts can crash so can bitcoin
1371  Economy / Speculation / Re: Winklevoss Bitcoin ETF effect in price on: July 09, 2014, 03:15:35 AM
You cannot short what you cannot borrow.

What would you charge to loan out your bitcoin, in USD terms?  I would very much worry about getting it all back.

There is a hefty premium to pay for the right to get stuck short in a squeeze.

I've heard of the greater fool theory, but this would require the mother of all fools.  MoAF.

I can do it w options with defined risk.

Premium is going to be a bitch.


You can sell calls when IV is high.     Or buy put verticals.   Or sell call verticals.

Its only foolish if you don't know how to do it.   I take bearish positions all the time.   The only hard part is the timing.   But usually price crash harder than it goes up.   Escalator up elevator down type thing

There are some traders who mostly short or take bearish positions.   I think they're licking their chops to short bitcoin.  Its got all the ingredients
1372  Economy / Speculation / Re: Winklevoss Bitcoin ETF effect in price on: July 09, 2014, 02:50:49 AM
The thing about the ETF is that it gets more volume, both long and short. And the thing about Bitcoin is that volume = good in the long term, either direction. Also, its a lot of publicity. There will surely be a lot of volume that comes the moment it drops on the market. Basically whats going to happen is:

1) A whole bunch of traders who didn't trade on bitfinex/bitstamp etc... "trust" the etf more, so they trade that instead.
2) A whole bunch of BTC-likers will buy the BTC in their IRAs, etc...
3) A whole bunch of BTC-haters will short the BTC.

Probably, the amount of money longing from (2) is going to be greater than the amount of money shorting from (3) because the people in (2) tend to be more risk-on than those in (3) so they will put more money on it.

But its also true that some traders, the most risk-on group of all, might decide to short. Also, its also true that group (2) has had places like bitfinex & bitstamp the whole time, while group (3) was very unlikely to use these services. So the amount of shorts might actually become pretty large.

Either way, it doesn't really matter. No matter, the volume is going to be really high, and that's the main bullish indicator in the long term. If its short interest causing it, then the price will crash for 2 years, while BTC-likers accumulate and shorters pay interest, eventually causing price increase.

If its longs causing it, then the price will bubble immediately, just causing a repeat of 2013 all over again. Bubble-burst bubble-burst each bubble being higher.

The bad situation would be if the ETF was canceled or if it needed to be pulled due to some kind of scandal or concerns over what someone somewhere can label "insider trading."

The less bad situation would be if the ETF didn't take off in popularity/volume, kind of flopped, but continues trading nonetheless.

I would love to short bitcoin on a legit exchange through a legit broker.  I can do it w options with defined risk.   Don't need to borrow

If some famous short hedge fund guy like Einhorn get shorting bitcoin the price will  crash til another famous hedge fund guy buys the bottom.

So far few big investment banks are pro bitcoin so I don't see any big funds getting into it.  It be smaller hedge funds.   Which would do their typical pump and pump
1373  Economy / Economics / Re: Inflation supports economic growth. Prove otherwise in this thread! on: July 09, 2014, 02:27:49 AM
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.

You got it backwards.  Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy.  Booms & busts happen as business cycles.

The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?

... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.

Its not semantics.   Market forces are very difficult to manipulate.   Inflation/ deflation are measurements.   They are symptoms not causes.

Saving or spending can be reactive.  But how do you mandate that?   Can't force people to save or spend if they don't want to.   The only thing the Fed can do is raise/lower interest rates.  Govt can save or spend if Congress approves budget
1374  Economy / Economics / Re: Could take 5-8 years to shrink Fed portfolio: Yellen on: July 09, 2014, 02:22:29 AM
1.04 to the power of 40        or 4% interest over 40 years is alot of growth = 480% I think

I assume if I take it as a decline in value compounded, then 4% less each year or 0.96^40 results in 20% left after 40 years.

Every time they give your gains, they exclude inflation usually.  If you ever wondered why you arent getting any richer, thats probably it.  Hence constant wage increases are demanded by unions which can lead to labour disputes and strikes, production disruption because a company doesnt necessarily have the money just because the workers need it and are poorer.
Wages tend to rise faster then inflation, this is one reason why the Social Security trust fund is in the shape that it is in because it gives recipients raises in terms of wage growth instead of purchasing power (inflation). So someone who received social security 10 years ago will have started with a monthly award that had less purchasing power then their monthly award today.

Majority make higher wages as they compete in the workplace for promotions.   Then they invest in real estate or retirement accounts.   Most people dont care about mild deflation,  they care about employment.   If you are talking about too much inflation or stagflation then thats a different discussion

I don't buy the arguments here for deflation.   Too much assumption about a static economy when in fact economies are dynamic

1375  Economy / Economics / Re: Inflation supports economic growth. Prove otherwise in this thread! on: July 08, 2014, 09:05:45 PM
Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.

You got it backwards.  Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy.  Booms & busts happen as business cycles.

The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?
1376  Economy / Economics / Re: Could take 5-8 years to shrink Fed portfolio: Yellen on: July 08, 2014, 09:03:29 PM
Thanks. I'm going to try regurgitating my understanding with some new assumptions and hope I'm getting close to truth.

-So banks don't get to sell T-bonds at face value, just market price or sometimes even below for cash. The Fed allows this both to prevent problems with reserve requirements (and everything going along with banks not having enough) and I'd guess to also prevent large dumps on the T-bond market, which in turn makes T-bonds relatively stable, thus more attractive.

Many large banks are members of the Fed (paying both dues and fees), but the profit goes to the Treasury. The Treasury does create money, but it doesn't create wealth -- banks don't get free wealth from the Fed, while benefits are all fairly well-balanced to keep money-creation powers not fully divested to either the market or the government, permitting a semi-market-based approach to money creation. Since Fed profits go to the Treasury (less overhead, losses, etc), the Treasury is effectively allowed to issue T-bonds and not pay interest, but only for T-bonds sold to the Fed at or below market rates. Discounting debt devaluation (in real terms) from inflation, this scheme of doing things prevents the government from just printing any financial troubles away (if they tried, the uncertainty from breaking this unspoken contract risks complete USD and T-bond meltdown, which could bring a ruinous banking crisis). In times of banking turbulence, like now and in recent history, lots of money is created this way, but banks use this money generally to meet reserve requirements (either those set by gov't or those self-imposed) after taking losses or otherwise over-extending themselves, so it doesn't just go right back into the economy, at least not until the banks recover and a healthy (or dangerously over-permissive, maybe "predatory") state of lending resumes. Everything works in a very complex, somewhat balanced way that usually (except in cases of extreme political pressure?) prevents quick and extreme reactions to short-term or mid-term problems. This permits long-term health for the US dollar.

I'm still not sure why M2 increase doesn't eventually mean we'll feel inflation from it when lending fully un-thaws, especially if the effects are suppressed/delayed by low money velocity. It doesn't factor in debts written off by banks for things like mortgages or LoCs, so maybe that acts as a deflationary force, reducing money velocity (lower home prices, less money circulating, especially lent money) and reducing the money supply (houses aren't counted in M2, but banks do have to write off the debts occasionally and usually take large losses in trying to sell the mortgaged property - consumers and businesses taking LoC probably aren't buying CDs, T-bonds, or making demand deposits). -But the housing market's had a huge uptick over the last couple years, unemployment's stabilized, and real wages are on the way up, so if M2 had any impact at all, why hasn't it effectively turned the value of our dollars to ash? Conservative banks?

(side-question: is money for repos also created or even significant compared to Fed T-bond purchases?)
I think it's fair to assume that treasuries are quasi-money. They can be used as collateral in most market operations. And the money thing has been eroded to a degree by financialization of the economy.

What about wealth. I tend to argue that Treasury is the govt entity that creates wealth, while the Fed doesn't. That's because when the govt does deficit spending, it adds net financial assets to the private sector, while the Fed only changes the assets composition. That's all about accounting basics and sectoral balances. On this topic I'd recommend reading Modern Monetary Theory ideas.

Now about M2. I think this money measure doesn't work in this QE reality. Just because a large part of money counted just sits idle and doesn't participate in economic activity. I also think that money velocity didn't fall as much as calculations show, just because it consider this 'idle money' created by QE.

It all looks like a big Théâtre de l'Absurde and does carry very little economical sense. But time will tell.

Very good post.  I think it'll be difficult for folks here to understand MMT without understand double entry book keeping.

But I agree with you.  Wealth comes from the "real economy" rather than monetary policies.  But even with QE & stimulus on a grand scale experiment like Abenomics have not shown to produce results.  Time will tell indeed
1377  Economy / Economics / Re: Could take 5-8 years to shrink Fed portfolio: Yellen on: July 08, 2014, 07:02:32 PM
1.04 to the power of 40        or 4% interest over 40 years is alot of growth = 480% I think

I assume if I take it as a decline in value compounded, then 4% less each year or 0.96^40 results in 20% left after 40 years.

Every time they give your gains, they exclude inflation usually.  If you ever wondered why you arent getting any richer, thats probably it.  Hence constant wage increases are demanded by unions which can lead to labour disputes and strikes, production disruption because a company doesnt necessarily have the money just because the workers need it and are poorer.
A demo of that would be the closure of

That's only if you are an outside observer.  If you are inside the economy inflation lifts everything.  If you sell stuff you can inflate your prices so your income stays the same
1378  Economy / Speculation / Re: I have found the way to drive the price to ATH on: July 08, 2014, 06:59:48 PM
Greed would assure this will never happen.  Knowing that everyone will place at $1100 means I should put mine at $1099.99, because what's a few cents if I sell first?

So now I see this guy at $1099.99 and say "shit, I'll just undercut that guy by a cent".  So then I place my ask at $1099.98.

After everyone's done fucking the other guy for their place in line the last guy says: "Shit, I'll just cut that other guy out by a cent", and places his ask at $624.99.

Yeah classic case of prisoners dilemma
1379  Economy / Speculation / Re: Fundamental analysis thread REVIVED on: July 08, 2014, 06:55:29 PM
Its not Fundamental Analysis unless you can price these things
1380  Economy / Speculation / Re: This Bitfinex Credit Bubble cannot end well on: July 08, 2014, 12:17:50 AM
more and more people are realizing 10% interest a month on bitfinex will almost certainly make more than long term btc holding.

At 10%/month (what I've been making at finex), btc would have to be 6000 in 2 years.

In Bitcoin there's no counter party risk though.

Anyway, how on Earth are these leveraged longs holding on for these periods of time while paying these sky-high interest rates? Especially considering interest rates for USD are at record lows in the real world ... It just makes zero chance. I would not be surprised if something shady is going on.

Because theyre gamblers and they believe the pump
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