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1141  Economy / Economics / Re: US National Debt / Deficit - How does it end? on: August 31, 2014, 02:45:32 AM
A government debt is different than a personal debt.  Government spending doesnt just burn away, even if its spent on what somebody may "waste" its spent on jobs and contracts and pushes money into the economy.  Look at the postal service, a collosal waste and cannot keep up with UPS or FedEx, but where does all that money go?

Additionally debt should be in relationship to the GDP output of the country.  If both are increasing at the same rate, then we remain the same.  The actual dollar value increases, along with inflation, so sticker shock always seem high.

Its an interesting subject with much to learn about and of course opinions
The most important thing that "u.s. in debt, omg we gonna default" folks don't understand is accounting.
Debt issued by someone is an asset to someone else. When debt is issued, say, by a private sector corporation, it becomes an asset to someone in the private sector, but a liability to the corporation. Net assets of private sector don't change.
But when debt is issued by US Treasury it becomes asset to the private sector (both domestic and foreign) but a liability to the public sector. So issuing debt is actually adding net financial assets to the private sector, creating financial wealth.

This way budget deficits tend to improve private sector's financial health. Of course it's not a magic bullet, but people should really stop being scared of public debt.
There's no anything special, it's just an instrument to manage the economy.
One thing that you are missing is the fact that in order to buy this asset, someone in the private sector must exchange cash (also an asset) for the treasury bond. There would be no change in the total amount of assets in the private sector. Also the private sector owning a lot of government bonds means they are not able to invest as much money in their own business that will likely be more productive.

You just proved his point that you don't understand accounting or financial markets

Who do you think are buying these Treasuries?  Some corporation trying to decide on opening a new factory or putting the money into bonds instead?  LOL

1142  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Would you name your baby Satoshi for 150 bitcoins? on: August 26, 2014, 04:27:58 AM
That depends, I mean the name is more of an ASIAN name, so people in that part of the world might... Cool Cool

So what?  Plenty of Asians have English names like Jackie Chan.  What can't white people have Asian names?
1143  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Why Do People Believe Bitcoin Will Replace Fiat? on: August 26, 2014, 01:52:26 AM
when you take into account the Zimbabwe dollar saga, and now africans are stepping into non government currencies like bitcoin/mpesa.. you have to ask yourself what will the rest of the world do when you cant even buy a loaf of bread for less than 2000 USD/GBP

M-pesa is not a currency.  Its a mobile  payment system launched by Vodaphone.  Stop fear mongering so you can pump bitcoin
1144  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Would you name your baby Satoshi for 150 bitcoins? on: August 26, 2014, 01:47:07 AM
Pretty common Japanese name.  Like Samuel or equivalent

Why is somebody paying?  I would take the offer
1145  Economy / Speculation / Re: what should I do, I invested a lot on: August 19, 2014, 01:16:50 PM
I am surprised that not a single person here has given the standard advice of a financial advisor.

For the avoidance of doubt, the standard advice is to diversify your portfolio. That advice stands irrespective of whatever may have happened in the past to your investments. Just because they have gone down, does not mean you should not diversify.

Therefore the standard advice would be to sell a large proportion of your Bitcoin and to invest in other asset classes, in order to have a diversified portfolio.

That advice does not rely on a prediction of what the Bitcoin price will be in the future. It relies simply on the fact that YOU do not know what the Bitcoin price will be in the future (neither do I).



I agree.  I think he should take this opp at 470 to reduce position by half.  Use the funds to diversify
1146  Economy / Economics / Re: Am I wrong to think Bitcoin whales should be ashamed of themselves? on: August 18, 2014, 04:25:37 PM
I mean how much more coins do you need, the vast majority of Bitcoins are still owned by a circle of only a few thousand people, do they really feel the need to pump and dump just to get more? At what point is enough is enough, hell i'd appreciate it more if they brought some of that BTC into the alt game if they really want to play around and pump some other coins up for profit, at least seed the money around elsewhere in the crypto world if you want to make more BTC.

People are greedy.  Its expected.  I don't get why anyone would want to buy into a deflationary currency full of speculators
1147  Economy / Speculation / Re: what should I do, I invested a lot on: August 18, 2014, 04:14:18 PM
hi, I invested a lot at the beginning of this year thinking bitcoin would have risen again as usual, I bought many btc when it was 830 and some after when it was 660. I waited for the pump but things are getting bad. I am wo4ried. I am 26 yo I am not rich and I invested a lot of my savings. I can live without, ok, but they were my savings. What should I do now? is this the end? Will bitcoin rise again at least until 830?

Hey I can sympathize you.  I've lost a lot of money in stocks before as well.  I think the thing you should do is sell as much of your holdings to get to a position you can accept losing everything.

You are stressed out because your position is too big.  The price might go up or down more.  Nobody knows.  What you know is the size of your position and how much you stand to win OR lose.  Try to think defensively out it

Ignore the pumpers here.  They are perma bulls.  They don't care about your money.  I have no position so I don't care if price of bitcoin goes up or down.  I just don't like to see people get suckered into a pyramid/ pump & dump
1148  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin already IS mainstream on: August 18, 2014, 03:58:27 PM
When price was 1200 everyone knew about it.  Even my 75 year old father heard about it and asked me if its a good investment cause he heard it frim obscure radio show.  I said HELL NO.  Glad I talked him out of that

Trust me everyone knows about it and nobody cares.

I downloaded a wallet  to play around. Such PITA to use and I'm a geek.  Its like expecting normal people make torrenting mainstream when they rather use Netflix
1149  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: August 18, 2014, 02:07:47 PM
Could someone explain this to me?

I have 18 btc long from 528 on BTC-e. That order was not margin called today. But 40 btc long from 453$ was. How the fuck is that possible.

Which one was bought w margin and which one bought w cash?
1150  Economy / Economics / Re: value on: August 18, 2014, 01:23:54 AM
Its just speculation.  Whatever somebody wants to pay
1151  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: BITFINEX MALFUNCTIONING on: August 18, 2014, 12:52:03 AM
Because Bitfinex are pumpers.  They want more longs than shorts on the book for some reason.  They've never hidden this afaik
1152  Economy / Economics / Re: Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism? on: August 18, 2014, 12:47:48 AM
Quote
I believe that society thrives on education
Yes, more than we can believe.

Quote
If suddenly a large population of children chose work over school we cannot remain competitive in future generations
Why do you think that ? To put things into context the labor demanded in our countries is not manual anymore but intellectual.
Why do you think school educates better than work in today's world ? The failure of schools today makes it hard to believe it can be worse.

Quote
What you are proposing is currently illegal for under 14 in US
That's why I'm debating it. But still I don't see why if the child wants to work and make money he should be prohibited to do it.
Education you said ? work nowadays educate better than school because we need brains, we are in a "knowledge economy" in Peter Drucker terms.

Quote
I dont think minors have ability to consent to matters they have no experience in and it would increase their. chance for exploitation
If the child wants to practice, learn and make money and company need brains, where is the exploitation ? I fail to see.

But I think we are going round, because you think that a "smart third party" can objectively judge that one is exploiting the other.
For children, the parent judges, and for adult, a washington bureaucrat. But as libertarian I say that only concerned parties are the best judges.

Yes under current law under 14 years old parents sign labor contract.  But the employment is extremely regulated.  Child has to have schooling min hours per week and child cannot work full time.  So current law allows parents to decide these matters but parents still cannot overstep regulations like have child work full time

The exploitation occurs when you make contract w minors who dont understand contract law.   Theres a reason why we have separate laws for adults and minor.  I don't know if every individual child understands contracts but probably most of them don't

I think the issue here is you are debating from an individual perspective.  Maybe you were really smart and worldly when you were a minor.  Im debating from a policy perspective.  When legislators mske policy they can't think of every individual case only a generalized case

1153  Economy / Economics / Re: Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism? on: August 17, 2014, 11:00:14 PM
By which standard, you can decide who is weak and need to be protected, and who is strong and need to get robbed ?
To which standard can you point out to someone and tell he is exploited ?
Who judges what the asymmetry is ?
On what standard  the bureaucrats of Washington can judge that the trade between two persons he does not know is asymmetrical, and thus coercion on the strong one should be used to be fair ?
Don't you think that in such system, the bureaucrats will eventually get bribed ?

If an employer is prevented by law to fire his employee, and his employee is not doing his job and profit his position, who is exploited, who lost his free will ? (it is what happen in France)
And then you wonder why enterprise are so fearful to employ someone and on the defensive.
I don't care since I profit from it with my higher rates as fire able consultant, but I am much more secure and free than any employee can be, and always dealt equal to equal with my customers on my free will.

For labor laws, you guessed it right, I am for voluntary child labor, where the child can decide if he works, where he works, and for how much and trade himself for it.
It will solve the dilemma of school being out of touch with economic needs. (Economic need is nothing but the need of society)
The condition of schools today are way worse than work.

As you may already know, legal framework is always in flux and should reflect the needs of society at the present time.  Regulations are added or subtracted as needed.  

What you are proposing is currently illegal for under 14 in US.  I would protest that type of deregulation for reasons of consent.  I dont think minors have ability to consent to matters they have no experience in and it would increase their. chance for exploitation.  And also I believe that society thrives on education.  If suddenly a large population of children chose work over school we cannot remain competitive in future generations


1154  Economy / Economics / Re: Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism? on: August 17, 2014, 09:19:07 PM
Quote
Either you dont know what a sweatshop is or you think it can't exist because free will and free market
Do not compare the condition of today with sweatshop of yesterday.
Compare the life of the worker in sweatshop in a city yesterday with the life of the farmer in the country before yesterday.
Sweatshop was a big deal and an improvement on the alternative. You can't say anyone exploited them, nobody put the gun on their head to flee the country side.

It is great that labor union made things better when it was not at the cost of the tax payer. (ie without using state coercion for their own purpose)



All you are saying is all historical roads lead to the present.  We are debating regulations vs no regulations.

My position is that it is because of regulations (for example labor laws) that contribute to the conditions that allowed economic output to increase
1155  Economy / Economics / Re: Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism? on: August 17, 2014, 08:48:39 PM
My question was simple...is it ethical to exploit desperate people.  Even if these people voluntrarly amd free willungly accets the sweathop jobs.  Yes or no?

Is it ethical to deny people employment opportunities to maintain protectionist trade relations?  Is it ethical to exploit the consumer by only allowing them to buy local produce, at greater expense.  

Or should we separate ethics and economics and address them individually?

Those examples arent issues of ethics.  I would say things like child labor laws, workers rights are issues of ethics.

Thats why i don't buy the libertarian ideal of "free market is always right".  They ignore the existence of power in reality .  Libertarians can say people cant be exploited because free will.  Common sense says the opposite.  People get scammed or exploited all the time.

 Huh  If thats your point of view, then I don't really think you understand what "ethics" are.  Certainly you've missed that different people hold different ethical views and value assign them different values and priorities.  You apparently hold child labour in far off lands paramount, another might find employment of local population has greater importance. 

The question you pose isn't simple "yes/no", though most would answer "no" to exploitation there are other factors.  Someone might prefer that there isn't child labour in a far off land, but wants to cloth their child or earn a wage, which trumps their objection to sweatshops.

Also, a libertarian view on the "free market is right" is from the point of view of economics.  Not ethics. This illustrates perfectly my point that they should be separated. 

No my argument is regulations enable free trade.  I argue against the libertarian position that the free market (unregulated) is always right.

You cant separate business from ethics.  Impossible.  To think so is naive or delusional.

If I want to argue child labor from an economics point.  I can just compare economic performance of places that regulate child labor and places that don't.  

The problem I have w libertarian ideology is that it is disconnected from reality.  I reject the idea that free will means exploitation is not possible.  If you make a contract w a child and he has free will to agree.  Do you think our laws shoukd honor that agreement?  This is what im talking about.  Not whether some poor family in Bangladesh needs their kids to go to work and pitch in.  The only reason I brought up child labor is to show that not all trades are symmetric.  In reality a lot of trades are assymetrical due to power relationships.  This is why we need regulations.

1156  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: August 17, 2014, 06:06:51 PM
Bitfinex increases allowable margin from 2.5 to 3.33 on Monday.  

That should decrease margin calls and may even spark a rally.

That's pretty awesome news.

if that will spark a rally we all gonna be very surprised and happy :-)

But even without a rally this is a good change.

Why does this sound like a banker or politician wanting to stimulate an economy?

I dunno.  I am not a politician I am not a banker.

Do you think that allowable margin at 3.33 is bad for us?

Its not a big margin compared to other markets like forex
1157  Economy / Economics / Re: Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism? on: August 17, 2014, 05:41:28 PM

At a restaurant you trade money against a good meal. Wealth just got created.
You valued your money less than the meal, and the cook valued the meal less than the money. The sum of the difference of valuation is wealth.


Not all trade is equal.  Most of the time there is a power relationship where the strong exploits the weak.

An example is sweatshops.  People who need jobs are willing to allow themselves to be exploited because they need money.  This was common in 19th/ early 20th century before existence of labor unions

how is a sweatshop exploiting anyone if they agree to work there out of their own free will, without the sweatshop they would be worse off.

Do you believe its ethical to exploit desperate people? Free will is just a red herring
They are not as desperate as you think. These people can try to get better work or collectively bargen for better wages or work environment.
My question was simple...is it ethical to exploit desperate people.  Even if these people voluntrarly amd free willungly accets the sweathop jobs.  Yes or no?
If people are accepting these jobs out of their own free will and when other jobs are available then they are not at all being exploited. Exploiting someone would be when they would be tricked into accepting a job and then paying them much less then what is promised.

Well too bad for you that in Western world we already have labor regulation in place.  Do propose to undo those regulations?

You dont have to trick anyone to exploit them.  They willingly allow themselves to be exploited when faced w worse options.  However, this doesnt remove the ethical aspect of the exploit itself.  Like i said free will is a red herring

Either you dont know what a sweatshop is or you think it can't exist because free will and free market.  I find this to be naive
1158  Economy / Economics / Re: Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism? on: August 17, 2014, 02:13:09 PM
My question was simple...is it ethical to exploit desperate people.  Even if these people voluntrarly amd free willungly accets the sweathop jobs.  Yes or no?

Is it ethical to deny people employment opportunities to maintain protectionist trade relations?  Is it ethical to exploit the consumer by only allowing them to buy local produce, at greater expense.  

Or should we separate ethics and economics and address them individually?

Racism, ageism and sexism will always be here. You can't solve every social issue using law alone.

You cant solve w law but law should reflect society's ideals
1159  Economy / Economics / Re: Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism? on: August 17, 2014, 02:11:48 PM
My question was simple...is it ethical to exploit desperate people.  Even if these people voluntrarly amd free willungly accets the sweathop jobs.  Yes or no?

Is it ethical to deny people employment opportunities to maintain protectionist trade relations?  Is it ethical to exploit the consumer by only allowing them to buy local produce, at greater expense.  

Or should we separate ethics and economics and address them individually?

Those examples arent issues of ethics.  I would say things like child labor laws, workers rights are issues of ethics.

Thats why i don't buy the libertarian ideal of "free market is always right".  They ignore the existence of power in reality .  Libertarians can say people cant be exploited because free will.  Common sense says the opposite.  People get scammed or exploited all the time.

1160  Economy / Economics / Re: Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism? on: August 17, 2014, 10:29:53 AM

At a restaurant you trade money against a good meal. Wealth just got created.
You valued your money less than the meal, and the cook valued the meal less than the money. The sum of the difference of valuation is wealth.


Not all trade is equal.  Most of the time there is a power relationship where the strong exploits the weak.

An example is sweatshops.  People who need jobs are willing to allow themselves to be exploited because they need money.  This was common in 19th/ early 20th century before existence of labor unions

how is a sweatshop exploiting anyone if they agree to work there out of their own free will, without the sweatshop they would be worse off.

Do you believe its ethical to exploit desperate people? Free will is just a red herring
They are not as desperate as you think. These people can try to get better work or collectively bargen for better wages or work environment.

My question was simple...is it ethical to exploit desperate people.  Even if these people voluntrarly amd free willungly accets the sweathop jobs.  Yes or no?
I wouldn't call it exploitation as they receive capital and jobs that could have been given to a person in the 1st world. But if that's what you call exploitation then sure, that's how the world works, you need a job to obtain wealth. Look at the Japanese, Koreans, and currently the Chinese, they once were "sweatshops" but the foreign capital that was spent on wages and infrastructure has risen salary and living standards for them. So exploitation? No, that would be like calling going to school "exploitation", going to school even if you hate it makes your chances of obtaining more income later in life higher.

But on regards to the original post, I really believe that the unholy hybrid of both Capitalism and Socialism in the form of Cooperatives will solve poverty issues.

So you deny that exploitation exist because you have an example where end justifies the mean  Roll Eyes
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