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881  Economy / Speculation / Re: Fair value is at 53.31$ ;-) on: March 10, 2013, 03:03:49 PM
No, fair value is $173.70.


Assumptions:
-- Let's say there's a 25% chance that bitcoin is $1500 ten years from today, and a 75% chance that it's $0.
-- Let's assume a discount-rate of 8% annually (roughly historical stock market return).

So, the Present Value of $1500 ten years from now at 8% annual discount rate = $694.79

Expected Value = (0.25)($694.79) + (0.75)($0) = $173.70



This is the wrong way of calculating things. The chance that Bitcoin will succeed must be calculated from the market price, not the other way around (unless you have access to insider information).
882  Other / Meta / Re: Change [btc] to comply with ISO standard on: March 07, 2013, 12:57:39 PM
It's separate span tags through - search engines may see it as X BTC.

<span> tags have no spacing. A search engine that sees it as "X BTC" doesn't understand what <span> means.
883  Other / Meta / Re: Change [btc] to comply with ISO standard on: March 07, 2013, 12:52:07 PM
BTC sounds better, ISO should adopt what people use not the other way around...

Agreed. I don't much care what ISO says.

For those discontent with the reception, here's a workaround:

Code:
[color=transparent]X[/color][btc]

This produces the text XBTC, which is not optimal but still better than BTC.

Does it?

XBTC
Yes, in fact, that is the goal. It looks like a regular bitcoin symbol, but to search engines is more like XBTC.
884  Other / Off-topic / A possible solution to blocksize limit on: March 07, 2013, 04:28:33 AM
Is there demand for a solution that will (hopefully) solve the problems below? I ask because I don't wish to bother the devs with an incomplete and useless proposal.

BIP RFC: A solution to the block size limit?
Changes
This solution requires several changes to the Bitcoin system:
  • The block header has an additional field added to it: the size of the block.
  • The algorithm for chain length is changed. See below for details.
Strengths
There are several strengths in this system.
  • There is no need to increase the size of the block limit.
  • Clients do not waste bandwidth downloading large blocks.
  • Block sizes will be regulated through risk and reward, that is, by the market.
Weaknesses
There are several weaknesses in this system.
  • A 51% attack is more dangerous, as miners have more control.
  • A 51% attack may be easier to conduct, as the attacker could mine empty blocks.
Concepts
This solution relies on several properties of the Bitcoin system:
  • The length of a chain can be determined through only the block headers.
  • The block headers are of a fixed size.
885  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer - MtGoxUSD wall movement tracker on: March 07, 2013, 02:20:49 AM
is trading halted yet?

it looked like bitStamp dictated the rise this time unless gox was just too slow to tell me

there we go..........$7 MILLION

new record volume?

It depends on how you look at the times - Feb 6 UTC 00:00-23:59 (which includes the sell-off as far down as 41) volume was $5.8 Million - or about $50,000 in fee profit by MtGox in just 24 hours.


This is what I see

Timestamp                   Open            High          Low           Close               Volume (BTC)      Volume (Currency)           Weighted Price
2013-03-03 00:00:00   34.2489        34.5          33.8          34.49999          12524.59            427480.57                      34.13
2013-03-04 00:00:00   34.49999      36.7          34.19         36.152             46771.49            1659027.49                     35.47
2013-03-05 00:00:00   36.152         40.64625    36.15         40.33              85425.52             3361374.96                    39.35
2013-03-06 00:00:00   40.33           49.099       40.1446      41.0201          126451.72            5712472.93                    45.18
2013-03-07 00:00:00   41.0201        41.93765    33.83133    34.2               33100.07             1242940                         37.55

He meant March 6, not February 6.
886  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Confirmation Time on: March 07, 2013, 02:18:24 AM
Hello! I sent some coins to Mt.Gox just before the crash started, and it's still not showing in my Mt.Gox account, my Bitcoin-QT client & Blockchain.info all show zero confirmations.

It doesn't typically take this long - any thoughts? Is the network experiencing extreme load right now due to the volatility?

It's experiencing load because of an experiment the developers are conducting. You may need to wait around 10 blocks more than you usually would.
887  Economy / Speculation / Re: Back to $40, what did you expect? Bitcoin is not going to go under $30. on: March 07, 2013, 02:12:04 AM
and it's crashing down to $36 again

I see it at $43!

Was at $44 a while ago. Now at $42. Soon we'll reach $32.

And after $32?  Roll Eyes
Hell, you don't even need to answer that, if what you say is so real in your head, you're a rich person. Go for it, dawg!

We probably won't break $32, or at least so I'm hoping. And I already have gone for it, thank you.
888  Economy / Speculation / Re: Back to $40, what did you expect? Bitcoin is not going to go under $30. on: March 07, 2013, 02:07:22 AM
and it's crashing down to $36 again

I see it at $43!

Was at $44 a while ago. Now at $42. Soon we'll reach $32.
889  Economy / Speculation / Re: Back to $40, what did you expect? Bitcoin is not going to go under $30. on: March 07, 2013, 02:00:22 AM
When have we seen this before?

I wish people would stop making excuses. With every sudden rise is an equally sudden drop. Good luck to you bulls—you'll need it.
890  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-03-06 MONEY.CNN.COM Why cyber currency bitcoin is trading at an all-time hi on: March 07, 2013, 12:35:36 AM
Bitcoin does not support gambling, drugs, or tax evasion. That is a complete myth. I ran some numbers, and drugs and gambling combine for approximately 10% of the network. That's about as much as it is for regular fiat.

The people on Bitcointalk have an irrational fear of government, believing it to be more than what it is—an association of people help organize society. Yes, it is power-hungry; and yes, it makes mistakes—but there is zero reason to believe it will attack a currency that benefits its own people.

Obviously bitcoin doesn't support anything, it's a protocol.  But its lack of regulation, allows it to facilitate a lot of things people frown upon.  Prescriptions make the price of obtaining legal drugs more expensive, but the public interest still supports it because a few may abuse it.  The price of healthcare is even a huge issue, yet the idea of making all drugs over the counter is never discussed.  The same people that follow that logic will use it campaign against bitcoin.  Despite all the good bitcoin can do, the fact that it can't be controlled is something people fear.

Citation needed.

People who know it for what it is do not fear it. There are several reasons for this:

  • Bitcoin can be controlled. It is just like cash, subject to regulation as any other. See any large exchange for their AML policy. There is no reason Bitcoin can't be controlled.
  • Bitcoin does not need to be controlled. There is no harm that can be done with Bitcoin. Buying drugs and evading taxes with Bitcoin are just as, if not more, dangerous and easy to detect as with cold, hard, cash.
  • Control is not necessarily a good thing. There are many things that should not be controlled. That's why we have freedom of thought, conscience, expression, and association. People are not afraid of them. Like thought, conscience, and expression, financial freedom is beneficial, not detrimental, to society as a whole. Bitcoin decentralizes the banks, which have done little good for society. People fear banks, and Bitcoin helps save the day.
891  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Block Size soft-limit maxing out this AM 6/3/13 on: March 07, 2013, 12:19:43 AM
Exactly. If you want your transactions processed quickly, attach a nice healthy fee with them. If you can't be bothered to include a decent fee then your transaction deserves to be left behind.

Other way to look at it is if you can't be bothered to include a decent fee then you don't really care about when will your transaction be included.

You are missing the point. If Bitcoin can only support a million people, no amount of fee will allow it to support a million and one. Limiting block space to keep the fee up is like limiting food production to keep food prices up.

The hard block limit is no different than, for example, a government-imposed food production ban to support farmers. Even farmers who want to produce more food, because they earn more that way (compare with miners earning more by ignoring the limit), cannot because of the restriction. And the people who eat, starve. Nobody benefits from this scenario.

What we should be doing instead is letting the market decide the fee. Make block space unlimited, but expensive to produce. There are a few ways of accomplishing this:

1. Pay-for-space. For every kB a block takes up, the miner loses a certain amount of reward. Even malicious miners lose this reward, as it doesn't go to anyone. The reward could be adjusted like difficulty, or some other method, to allow growth in the network. This ensures there is no limit to block size if it becomes necessary, and ensures the blockchain will not be too big, as there is significant financial cost in doing so.

2. Prioritize-small-blocks. Currently, block length and orphans are determined through sum of block difficulty. This could, through a hard fork, add a risk to making bigger blocks, as they are more likely to be orphaned. If transaction fees are high enough that this risk is manageable, then the block sizes will increase. The only problem with this approach is the increased threat of a 51% attack by someone mining empty blocks. Hopefully the financial incentive of mining full blocks will counteract that.

People complain about how low the transaction fees are. I like to pose them this question below. If this isn't an argument for killing the block size limit, I don't know what is.

Quote
One scenario is a billion people paying today's transaction fees, and the other is a million people paying a thousand times today's transaction fees, handling the other people's money because they can afford it.

Both are obviously the same for miners, but which one is in Bitcoin's spirit?

There are so many elegant solutions to this block size problem. Keeping the current limit isn't one of them.
892  Economy / Gambling / Re: Peerbet.org - Play without house edge! on: March 07, 2013, 12:04:59 AM
Well in the last week of tying out this site I lost the 15 btc that I put in, I wasn't expecting it to be drained so fast but maybe that was because of the type of bets that I made, with no house rake I'd expected to be around, up & down, for longer - anyway as it's obviously not so lucky for me atm I shall leave it alone, if it's still around in a few months & getting good feedback then I may try some more - I like the concept a lot & all my bets were of the 'provably fair' type, but as yet I'm not totally confident re that, no offense intended.

What happened here is not because of fairness, but rather because of strategy.

There are strategies in Peerbet that are almost guaranteed to lose one their money. These strategies effectively convert Peerbet to a low-rake lottery. One of the common ones is the proportional bet strategy, which many people subconsciously adopt.

For example, imagine a hypothetical person with 1000 XBT to bet. He always bets 10% of his balance at 50/50 odds. You may expect him to have a 50/50 chance of being in the green. But let's examine the actual case.

After one bet, your expectation would be accurate.
Code:
50% 1100 XBT
BREAKEVEN 50%/50%
50% 900  XBT

But after two bets, it becomes clear that this isn't the case.
Code:
25% 1210 XBT
BREAKEVEN 25%/75%
50% 990  XBT
25% 810 XBT

There's a short return to the mean at three bets:
Code:
12.5% 1331 XBT
37.5% 1089 XBT
BREAKEVEN 50%/50%
37.5% 891  XBT
12.5% 729  XBT

But that is a short-lived return. If you noticed, the chances of each option is also a binomial coefficient. Now, we just need to model the median to determine what the most likely scenario is. For zero or one bet, the median is 1000 XBT. For two or three bets, it drops to 990 XBT. Because in theory betting with 1000 XBT is no different from betting with 990 XBT, we can now deduce that for every two bets, the median drops to 0.99× of what it was.

This means that starting with 1000 XBT, after 1000 bets, you should expect to be at ~6.57 XBT, effectively losing most of your money. So where did the "no house edge" go?

It turns out that this picture is not all bleak. The missing money is in the unlikely rewards. There is virtually no upper limit on the amount you can earn (the practical upper limit is that nobody will bet that high if you get lucky) if you win every game. But if you lose every game, you can lose at most 1000 XBT. This is where the lottery analogy comes in: you play a small amount, and you have the small chance to win a large amount.

There are, in fact, strategies that avoid this problem. Although they have far lower reward, the reward occurs often. However, when they are not rewarded, they can lose a significant amount of money; effectively reversing the lottery. Peerbet effectively lets you either play the lottery or run the lottery without a house edge, which is its greatest advantage. But you must educate yourself on probability theory before you take the plunge, or you will come up with an undesirable strategy.
893  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-03-06 MONEY.CNN.COM Why cyber currency bitcoin is trading at an all-time hi on: March 06, 2013, 10:57:37 PM
You worry too much about government. No matter how many mistakes it makes, it still acts in public interest. Public interest is to embrace a new revolutionary financial technology, not to ban it.

The same public interest that embraces gambling, drugs, and tax evasion?  People like having control over other people.  Bitcoin removes that control.  I disagree that the public interest is behind bitcoin, but I really hope the government is too slow to really inflict any real damage.  Regardless, I plan & recommend on not poking the bear.

Bitcoin does not support gambling, drugs, or tax evasion. That is a complete myth. I ran some numbers, and drugs and gambling combine for approximately 10% of the network. That's about as much as it is for regular fiat.

The people on Bitcointalk have an irrational fear of government, believing it to be more than what it is—an association of people help organize society. Yes, it is power-hungry; and yes, it makes mistakes—but there is zero reason to believe it will attack a currency that benefits its own people.
894  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Block Size soft-limit maxing out this AM 6/3/13 on: March 06, 2013, 09:09:21 PM

It is very good. Now people will start including larger fees with their transactions.

Even with higher fees, if blocks are full then transactions will be left behind.

Exactly. If you want your transactions processed quickly, attach a nice healthy fee with them. If you can't be bothered to include a decent fee then your transaction deserves to be left behind.

This is of course, patent nonsense.

Bitcoin's merit is in its decentralization. If the block size stays at its current level, it stands that only the current level of users can use it. The ~1000000 people who use Bitcoin today will serve as the centralizers of tomorrow's Bitcoin. That's still 7000 people per centralized authority.

Block size limit should be removed entirely and replaced with a "prefer-small-block" system.
895  Economy / Speculation / Re: XBT market cap exceeds 500 million on: March 06, 2013, 08:58:48 PM
Bitcoin's network can only support transferring 500 million USD every hour (as that is how long confirmations take). This means that if just one million people tried to buy something worth $500 each, the network would crumble. This is why we need to focus on increasing the monetary base, as that is healthier for the Bitcoin economy.

Could you explain this?

The total number of Bitcoin ever created is worth 500 million USD. The total number that can be used is much lower. Because a single bitcoin is tied up for 6 confirmations after being sent, too many bitcoins transacted at once would actually exhaust the network—there simply is no longer the liquidity to transact so much.

To see this in action, try to buy a house with Litecoin. It's not possible, because the monetary base is too small.
896  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-03-06 MONEY.CNN.COM Why cyber currency bitcoin is trading at an all-time hi on: March 06, 2013, 08:56:20 PM
This is major, but I have to admit I'm a little worried.

While the government already knows about bitcoin from other publicity, CNN just puts it right out front and in their face. I hope they don't decide to enact anything stupid on that basis.

I guess we'll see, just flagging a concern.

You worry too much about government. No matter how many mistakes it makes, it still acts in public interest. Public interest is to embrace a new revolutionary financial technology, not to ban it.
897  Economy / Speculation / XBT market cap exceeds 500 million on: March 06, 2013, 08:30:58 PM
Once again, we've passed an important milestone. It won't be long until we reach one billion USD.

To put the current cap in perspective, consider the following example.

Even if all Bitcoin were liquid (which is false, as some are hoarded and others are lost), Bitcoin's network can only support transferring 500 million USD every hour (as that is how long confirmations take). This means that if just one million people tried to buy something worth $500 each, the network would crumble. This is why we need to focus on increasing the monetary base, as that is healthier for the Bitcoin economy.

Many say that Bitcoin should develop its economy before price increases. However, they miss that the economy cannot develop without significant price increases. As a result, it seems that a gradual rise in prices is healthy for Bitcoin, not unhealthy.
898  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Now that we've reached the 250kb soft limit... on: March 06, 2013, 12:55:12 PM

14. Pleased with their profitability, miners refuse to accept any hard fork to block size.


The network isn't controlled by the miners. A hard fork the miners "refuse to accept" will have new miners that take their place.
899  Economy / Speculation / Re: Medium term forecast for US$ / BTC price. on: March 06, 2013, 04:05:46 AM
Please note that did not happen with previous hashrate jumps. Now the impact is much less because of larger coinbase and lower reward.

Also in you diagram the most additional coins are generated right now. the price did not drop today.

Previous hashrate jumps were caused by price increases, not new technology. That said, I don't believe ASICs will drop the price any more than psychologically.
lol. I was not here myself back then but word is when GPUs came one person got more than half of all the blocks for weeks if not months.

That was mostly before any serious Bitcoin trading. We have no precedent to determine that this hashrate increase is the same as any other; for all we know, it is completely different.
900  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: List of Major Bitcoin Heists, Thefts, Hacks, Scams, and Losses on: March 05, 2013, 09:40:16 PM
And the hits keep on coming!

Quote
By doing this, he locked out both my login and Gareths's login and they used this to hijack our emails and reset the login for one exchange (VirWox), enabling them to gain access and steal $12,480 USD worth of BTC.
- http://blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2013/3/4/events-of-friday-bitinstant-back-online.html


Nice find, but the 200 BTC estimate does not meet the barrier.

Losses of $8K USD are immaterial?  I suppose "Major" means something different nowadays.   Does BitInstant's $12K loss even qualify then?



Ubitex, Andrew Nollan, the Mt. Gox gaffé, and Bitscalper were technically all smaller, so I wouldn't say $12K is "immaterial". However, I risk saturating the list if I add too many of these smaller-scale thefts. What I'll do for now is hide these 4 thefts from the severity listing, and maintain the current 1000 BTC cutoff (which I hope to replace with a USD cutoff sometime in the future.
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