Health and Religion

[BADecker]

BADecker,

I understand your position perfectly.  You got yourself deep into this cult and you will always try to explain and justify obvious holes in your religious storyline.

So cancer is people's fault. Nice. I get it.  It cannot be God because God is perfect and good (yeah right)

But little kids, c'mon man.  What sins did a 3 month old child do who died of cancer? Where are your Christian morals.  To kill children with cancer is not right, man.

Next time you pray, say three times "Hey God, af_newbie said you go fuck yourself, you motherfucker!"

You have my vote for Best comment in the "Fuck You" to Badecker's god!

Brilliant!

So much anger and rage.  

The question of why innocents suffer is a hard one.

There is indisputably tremendous suffering in the world. Most of it is created by Man in our inhumanity to each other and our moral failings. Some, however, comes from random disasters such as tornadoes or an unlucky cancer.

In providing us with Ethical Monotheism God has given us the tools we need to build a better and more advanced society. This limits the evils of Man against Man. It also enables us, as we progress, to better mitigate random suffering such as that caused by natural disasters. Someday we will be able to cure or better yet prevent cancer. In some cases we have already made great progress. Childhood Acute Lymphocytic Leukemia (ALL) had a 10% survival rate in the 1960s today that survival rate is around 90%.

See: Religion and Progress for details on how Ethical Monotheism drives progress.

Why does God not simply impose his will on us and remove all evil from the world? Because if God or any other power did this we would no longer be free but the slaves of that power. We have been given free will to choose good over evil. If we all choose good then the random sufferings of natural disasters and even cancer will take care of themselves gradually vanishing with time and progress.

Yes! But when you look at the responses of the majority of people here, these people seem to want ignorance, if they can only maintain the idea of "God" outside of their lives.

There is a little Bible passage that says wording like, If God had not shortened those days, no flesh would be saved. In other words, at the end times, people will set themselves so extremely against God, that even the saved people would be twisted into losing their salvation.

When I explain this, perhaps it gives fuel to the fire of the ungodly people a little. But that's kinda okay. Sure, it would be good if evil did not exist. But if evil people force themselves harshly against the saved, Jesus will return and make the evil to NOT exist. Then, He will take His people to their new home, the New Earth in the New Heavens.

Will there really be a new universe? The language regarding this in the Revelation and elsewhere is a bit difficult to understand. But it seems that God is going to actually make a new universe.

Can God do this? There is only one thing to say about it. We simply have to believe what God says. After all, nobody knows the details of the way God made this universe. We don't even know a tiny touch of how He did it. In the same way, we don't know how He could make another one. All we can do is believe... or doubt.

[Tyrantt]

BADecker,

I understand your position perfectly.  You got yourself deep into this cult and you will always try to explain and justify obvious holes in your religious storyline.

So cancer is people's fault. Nice. I get it.  It cannot be God because God is perfect and good (yeah right)

But little kids, c'mon man.  What sins did a 3 month old child do who died of cancer? Where are your Christian morals.  To kill children with cancer is not right, man.

Next time you pray, say three times "Hey God, af_newbie said you go fuck yourself, you motherfucker!"

You have my vote for Best comment in the "Fuck You" to Badecker's god!

Brilliant!

So much anger and rage.  

The question of why innocents suffer is a hard one.

There is indisputably tremendous suffering in the world. Most of it is created by Man in our inhumanity to each other and our moral failings. Some, however, comes from random disasters such as tornadoes or an unlucky cancer.

In providing us with Ethical Monotheism God has given us the tools we need to build a better and more advanced society. This limits the evils of Man against Man. It also enables us, as we progress, to better mitigate random suffering such as that caused by natural disasters. Someday we will be able to cure or better yet prevent cancer. In some cases we have already made great progress. Childhood Acute Lymphocytic Leukemia (ALL) had a 10% survival rate in the 1960s today that survival rate is around 90%.

See: Religion and Progress for details on how Ethical Monotheism drives progress.

Why does God not simply impose his will on us and remove all evil from the world? Because if God or any other power did this we would no longer be free but the slaves of that power. We have been given free will to choose good over evil. If we all choose good then the random sufferings of natural disasters and even cancer will take care of themselves gradually vanishing with time and progress.

Yes! But when you look at the responses of the majority of people here, these people seem to want ignorance, if they can only maintain the idea of "God" outside of their lives.

There is a little Bible passage that says wording like, If God had not shortened those days, no flesh would be saved. In other words, at the end times, people will set themselves so extremely against God, that even the saved people would be twisted into losing their salvation.

When I explain this, perhaps it gives fuel to the fire of the ungodly people a little. But that's kinda okay. Sure, it would be good if evil did not exist. But if evil people force themselves harshly against the saved, Jesus will return and make the evil to NOT exist. Then, He will take His people to their new home, the New Earth in the New Heavens.

Will there really be a new universe? The language regarding this in the Revelation and elsewhere is a bit difficult to understand. But it seems that God is going to actually make a new universe.

Can God do this? There is only one thing to say about it. We simply have to believe what God says. After all, nobody knows the details of the way God made this universe. We don't even know a tiny touch of how He did it. In the same way, we don't know how He could make another one. All we can do is believe... or doubt.

oh boy are you in for a disappointment... Ok, let's say that in the end god exists but that god isn't that god you were worshiping and that god says"nah bro, you're going to hell for worshiping the false god". How'd you feel then?

[BADecker]

BADecker,

I understand your position perfectly.  You got yourself deep into this cult and you will always try to explain and justify obvious holes in your religious storyline.

So cancer is people's fault. Nice. I get it.  It cannot be God because God is perfect and good (yeah right)

But little kids, c'mon man.  What sins did a 3 month old child do who died of cancer? Where are your Christian morals.  To kill children with cancer is not right, man.

Next time you pray, say three times "Hey God, af_newbie said you go fuck yourself, you motherfucker!"

You have my vote for Best comment in the "Fuck You" to Badecker's god!

Brilliant!

So much anger and rage.  

The question of why innocents suffer is a hard one.

There is indisputably tremendous suffering in the world. Most of it is created by Man in our inhumanity to each other and our moral failings. Some, however, comes from random disasters such as tornadoes or an unlucky cancer.

In providing us with Ethical Monotheism God has given us the tools we need to build a better and more advanced society. This limits the evils of Man against Man. It also enables us, as we progress, to better mitigate random suffering such as that caused by natural disasters. Someday we will be able to cure or better yet prevent cancer. In some cases we have already made great progress. Childhood Acute Lymphocytic Leukemia (ALL) had a 10% survival rate in the 1960s today that survival rate is around 90%.

See: Religion and Progress for details on how Ethical Monotheism drives progress.

Why does God not simply impose his will on us and remove all evil from the world? Because if God or any other power did this we would no longer be free but the slaves of that power. We have been given free will to choose good over evil. If we all choose good then the random sufferings of natural disasters and even cancer will take care of themselves gradually vanishing with time and progress.

Yes! But when you look at the responses of the majority of people here, these people seem to want ignorance, if they can only maintain the idea of "God" outside of their lives.

There is a little Bible passage that says wording like, If God had not shortened those days, no flesh would be saved. In other words, at the end times, people will set themselves so extremely against God, that even the saved people would be twisted into losing their salvation.

When I explain this, perhaps it gives fuel to the fire of the ungodly people a little. But that's kinda okay. Sure, it would be good if evil did not exist. But if evil people force themselves harshly against the saved, Jesus will return and make the evil to NOT exist. Then, He will take His people to their new home, the New Earth in the New Heavens.

Will there really be a new universe? The language regarding this in the Revelation and elsewhere is a bit difficult to understand. But it seems that God is going to actually make a new universe.

Can God do this? There is only one thing to say about it. We simply have to believe what God says. After all, nobody knows the details of the way God made this universe. We don't even know a tiny touch of how He did it. In the same way, we don't know how He could make another one. All we can do is believe... or doubt.

oh boy are you in for a disappointment... Ok, let's say that in the end god exists but that god isn't that god you were worshiping and that god says"nah bro, you're going to hell for worshiping the false god". How'd you feel then?

That's exactly the point. Religions are built on a core of reality - like the existence of God - and consist of faith in the things that people believe God tells them.

What's the matter? Have your itty bitty feewings been hurt so badly by finding out that God is real, that you are out to hurt my feelings for being the guy who pointed out God to you? Be that as it may, turn to accept God. He will forgive you for your opposition at this time, if you turn from it to Jesus salvation.

Many of the studies that CoinCube brings out in this thread show that religion and belief in God bring about better general health.

[stats]

Poor baby. You understand perfectly what I am saying. Yet you set yourself up against the Great God of all. Well, your choice. But don't say I didn't warn you.

And yet you cannot defend Your God against the truth. How very ironic!

God is truth. He doesn't want or need any defense against Himself. Too bad you are so full of falsehood. He is letting your evil, the evil of this world, go on for a time. But at the right time, He will put an end to it.

God will even stop you from being evil. This will happen at your death. But you can reduce your evil before death, simply by acknowledging what you know in your heart already... that God exists, and has sent His Son, Jesus, to be your Savior.

Here is the irony for you BADecker.....

You preach how your God is wonderful and merciful and will save people, yet you are always accusing people of being "full of evil", "falsehood".... etc. Yet those of us who are Atheist, do not condone you for your beliefs. We just highlight the discrepancies in your belief system and ask for you to explain. Yet your answers are always the same.... twisted comments which do not answer the question.

Basically, you follow a God who is vengeful and merciless..... yes your bible highlights that! You speak about forgiveness and truth, yet, you fail to exhibit any of those qualities by stating things which you believe are true about someone and are a negative in your world.

I have tried numerous times to highlight this to you and yet you continue to ramble the same rubbish.

Irony much?

[BADecker]

Poor baby. You understand perfectly what I am saying. Yet you set yourself up against the Great God of all. Well, your choice. But don't say I didn't warn you.

And yet you cannot defend Your God against the truth. How very ironic!

God is truth. He doesn't want or need any defense against Himself. Too bad you are so full of falsehood. He is letting your evil, the evil of this world, go on for a time. But at the right time, He will put an end to it.

God will even stop you from being evil. This will happen at your death. But you can reduce your evil before death, simply by acknowledging what you know in your heart already... that God exists, and has sent His Son, Jesus, to be your Savior.

Here is the irony for you BADecker.....

You preach how your God is wonderful and merciful and will save people, yet you are always accusing people of being "full of evil", "falsehood".... etc. Yet those of us who are Atheist, do not condone you for your beliefs. We just highlight the discrepancies in your belief system and ask for you to explain. Yet your answers are always the same.... twisted comments which do not answer the question.

Basically, you follow a God who is vengeful and merciless..... yes your bible highlights that! You speak about forgiveness and truth, yet, you fail to exhibit any of those qualities by stating things which you believe are true about someone and are a negative in your world.

I have tried numerous times to highlight this to you and yet you continue to ramble the same rubbish.

Irony much?

What you or I or anyone else believes isn't necessarily the reality of things. That's why the fact of the existence of God has to be the basis for everything. We don't believe God exists. We know it. However, you can hide this fact from yourself all day long if you want.

[stats]

Poor baby. You understand perfectly what I am saying. Yet you set yourself up against the Great God of all. Well, your choice. But don't say I didn't warn you.

And yet you cannot defend Your God against the truth. How very ironic!

God is truth. He doesn't want or need any defense against Himself. Too bad you are so full of falsehood. He is letting your evil, the evil of this world, go on for a time. But at the right time, He will put an end to it.

God will even stop you from being evil. This will happen at your death. But you can reduce your evil before death, simply by acknowledging what you know in your heart already... that God exists, and has sent His Son, Jesus, to be your Savior.

Here is the irony for you BADecker.....

You preach how your God is wonderful and merciful and will save people, yet you are always accusing people of being "full of evil", "falsehood".... etc. Yet those of us who are Atheist, do not condone you for your beliefs. We just highlight the discrepancies in your belief system and ask for you to explain. Yet your answers are always the same.... twisted comments which do not answer the question.

Basically, you follow a God who is vengeful and merciless..... yes your bible highlights that! You speak about forgiveness and truth, yet, you fail to exhibit any of those qualities by stating things which you believe are true about someone and are a negative in your world.

I have tried numerous times to highlight this to you and yet you continue to ramble the same rubbish.

Irony much?

What you or I or anyone else believes isn't necessarily the reality of things. That's why the fact of the existence of God has to be the basis for everything. We don't believe God exists. We know it. However, you can hide this fact from yourself all day long if you want.

Actually, what I believe is my reality. That is where you are wrong. My mind.... my thoughts.... my beliefs. Once again you are not able to stick to your own arguement. You state many times that your god has given freewill, then you say it isn't the reality of things. Hmmmm..... another contradiction BADecker. Please stick to your thought process and try not to get lost in the meantime.

[stats]

[BADecker]

Poor baby. You understand perfectly what I am saying. Yet you set yourself up against the Great God of all. Well, your choice. But don't say I didn't warn you.

And yet you cannot defend Your God against the truth. How very ironic!

God is truth. He doesn't want or need any defense against Himself. Too bad you are so full of falsehood. He is letting your evil, the evil of this world, go on for a time. But at the right time, He will put an end to it.

God will even stop you from being evil. This will happen at your death. But you can reduce your evil before death, simply by acknowledging what you know in your heart already... that God exists, and has sent His Son, Jesus, to be your Savior.

Here is the irony for you BADecker.....

You preach how your God is wonderful and merciful and will save people, yet you are always accusing people of being "full of evil", "falsehood".... etc. Yet those of us who are Atheist, do not condone you for your beliefs. We just highlight the discrepancies in your belief system and ask for you to explain. Yet your answers are always the same.... twisted comments which do not answer the question.

Basically, you follow a God who is vengeful and merciless..... yes your bible highlights that! You speak about forgiveness and truth, yet, you fail to exhibit any of those qualities by stating things which you believe are true about someone and are a negative in your world.

I have tried numerous times to highlight this to you and yet you continue to ramble the same rubbish.

Irony much?

What you or I or anyone else believes isn't necessarily the reality of things. That's why the fact of the existence of God has to be the basis for everything. We don't believe God exists. We know it. However, you can hide this fact from yourself all day long if you want.

Actually, what I believe is my reality. That is where you are wrong. My mind.... my thoughts.... my beliefs. Once again you are not able to stick to your own arguement. You state many times that your god has given freewill, then you say it isn't the reality of things. Hmmmm..... another contradiction BADecker. Please stick to your thought process and try not to get lost in the meantime.

That's great... that you believe your reality. The fact that you only believe it shows that you don't know it. For example, did you believe your reality before you were conceived? Did you know anything before you were conceived? Obviously, yours and all of our realities, are overshadowed by a far greater reality.

Are you adamant in your beliefs? Are you so strong in your beliefs that there is no possibility that they could be swayed? Or is it simply that you haven't come up against the reality that might sway your beliefs? How do you know that such will always exist this way?

You bring up free will again. Don't you realize that our free will exists in the partial freedom we have to believe in God? Then, God takes our faith, and manipulates all creation for each of us, based on our individual faith in Him, and how we change our faith. Free will, yet cause and effect throughout. However, you are welcome to remain dense, if you want.

Regarding contradictions, you go into the kitchen. Then you come back out. You go into the living room. Then you come back out. You go to work. Then you go back home. How many contradictions do you have in your life? As long as you don't accept the context and the details, you will find contradictions all over the place, even in your own beliefs.

[BADecker]

https://scontent.fadl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15356667_1322081751199640_7210045300246232144_n.jpg?oh=421ba4583da22e3cc4121e446462d3bf&oe=58E9C88A

Perhaps when you start to formally accept the existence of God, then I might answer your question here.

[Tyrantt]

https://scontent.fadl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15356667_1322081751199640_7210045300246232144_n.jpg?oh=421ba4583da22e3cc4121e446462d3bf&oe=58E9C88A

Perhaps when you start to formally accept the existence of God, then I might answer your question here.

So you're saying that you'll be forgiven and saved after your death but not while you're alive? After death.. when you die and and no way to return or communicate with the people that are alive. Are you that ignorant not to get it?

[BADecker]

https://scontent.fadl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15356667_1322081751199640_7210045300246232144_n.jpg?oh=421ba4583da22e3cc4121e446462d3bf&oe=58E9C88A

Perhaps when you start to formally accept the existence of God, then I might answer your question here.

So you're saying that you'll be forgiven and saved after your death but not while you're alive?

What silly thing are you asking here? Sometimes I am saying some things, and sometimes I am saying different things. Do you always jump in with questions about what people are doing or saying? Or is it only some of the time?

After death.. when you die and and no way to return or communicate with the people that are alive. Are you that ignorant not to get it?

Maybe if you were not so ignorant that you can't seem to state what you mean, then I might not be so ignorant that I can't understand what you are saying.

[CoinCube]

...
Basically, you follow a God who is vengeful and merciless..... yes your bible highlights that! You speak about forgiveness and truth, yet, you fail to exhibit any of those qualities by stating things which you believe are true about someone and are a negative in your world.
...

Perhaps God is neither vengeful nor merciless? The next time you read the holy text of your choice you may find something like this "the penalty for ____ is death". Try substituting the following "the penalty for ____ is (eventual self-destruction/cessation as the natural consequence of your bad choices)".

Why might God allow us think he is vengeful and judging? Because it may simply be necessary not for Gods sake but for ours.

How Religious Belief Shapes Action: Those Who Believe In A Punishing God Are More Likely To Play Fair
http://www.medicaldaily.com/religious-belief-all-knowing-god-play-fair-373278

The daily news offers countless examples of the ways religion influences behavior, but the specific characteristics people attribute to their gods may be the most important factor in deciding their actions. Belief in an all-knowing, punishing god encourages cooperation with strangers, say researchers from the University of British Columbia. In fact, faith in such gods may have been necessary to the development of modern-day states.

Since the origins of agriculture, the scale of societal complexity has dramatically expanded while cooperation increased as well. According to the authors, communal agreement, most usually stimulated by genetic relatedness, reciprocity, and partner choice, should falter, not bloom as people increasingly deal in fleeting transactions with unrelated strangers in large anonymous groups.

So how did the large-scale cooperation we see today develop?

For that we can thank the belief in an all-knowing God who will punish us if we do not cooperate with and interact fairly within wider social circles, the authors hypothesize.

MINE OR YOURS?

To test this idea, they played a couple of games with people from far-flung locations around the world. Specifically, the research team enlisted the help of 591 people from Brazil, Fiji, Mauritius, Siberia, Tanzania, and Vanuatu; their religious beliefs included animism, ancestor worship, Buddhism, Christianity, and Hinduism. Led by Dr. Benjamin Purzycki, a research fellow at the Center for Human Evolution, Cognition, and Culture, the team conducted extensive interviews before the games began.

To play, an individual participant was given money and a two-color die. The researchers instructed the participant to roll the die and drop some coins in their own pot if one color came up. However, if the other color came up, the money was supposed to be placed in a pot for an unknown person who shared their religion in another community. In a second round, the participant was to drop coins into either the cup of a local co-religionist or a distant co-religionist. No one watched as each participant played the game.

Counting the coins in each pot, the researchers discovered participants in both games were more likely to play by the rules and dole out more coins to others if they believed in a god who knew about people’s thoughts and behavior, and punished for wrongdoing. By comparison, those who believed in a god who rewarded good behavior were not quite so equally inclined to play fair.

Based on these results, Purzycki and his colleagues say religious beliefs may have been a major contributing factor in the development of highly complex social organizations. Apparently, fear of supernatural punishment helps us remain on the earthly straight and narrow.

The reality is that Mankind causes most of our own suffering by hurting each other. This point was very well conveyed in the following song which was the number one biggest selling single of 1995.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zICb-9m2dGA

The greatest obstacle to human progress is not a technological hurdle but the evil inherent in ourselves. Humans have knowledge of good and evil and with this knowledge we all to often choose evil. Ethical Monotheism and God offer us a framework for overcoming this evil.

[CoinCube]

Religions trail well behind in the development of ethical and moral frameworks.  The secular thought is leading the pack.  Always had.

...

Your opening premise here is false. The following short 5 minute video clip may help.

Where do Good and Evil come from?
https://www.prageru.com/courses/religionphilosophy/where-do-good-and-evil-come

[BADecker]

...
Basically, you follow a God who is vengeful and merciless..... yes your bible highlights that! You speak about forgiveness and truth, yet, you fail to exhibit any of those qualities by stating things which you believe are true about someone and are a negative in your world.
...

Perhaps God is neither vengeful nor merciless? The next time you read the holy text of your choice you may find something like this "the penalty for ____ is death". Try substituting the following "the penalty for ____ is (eventual self-destruction/cessation as the natural consequence of your bad choices)".

Why might God allow us think he is vengeful and judging? Because it may simply be necessary not for Gods sake but for ours.

How Religious Belief Shapes Action: Those Who Believe In A Punishing God Are More Likely To Play Fair
http://www.medicaldaily.com/religious-belief-all-knowing-god-play-fair-373278

The daily news offers countless examples of the ways religion influences behavior, but the specific characteristics people attribute to their gods may be the most important factor in deciding their actions. Belief in an all-knowing, punishing god encourages cooperation with strangers, say researchers from the University of British Columbia. In fact, faith in such gods may have been necessary to the development of modern-day states.

Since the origins of agriculture, the scale of societal complexity has dramatically expanded while cooperation increased as well. According to the authors, communal agreement, most usually stimulated by genetic relatedness, reciprocity, and partner choice, should falter, not bloom as people increasingly deal in fleeting transactions with unrelated strangers in large anonymous groups.

So how did the large-scale cooperation we see today develop?

For that we can thank the belief in an all-knowing God who will punish us if we do not cooperate with and interact fairly within wider social circles, the authors hypothesize.

MINE OR YOURS?

To test this idea, they played a couple of games with people from far-flung locations around the world. Specifically, the research team enlisted the help of 591 people from Brazil, Fiji, Mauritius, Siberia, Tanzania, and Vanuatu; their religious beliefs included animism, ancestor worship, Buddhism, Christianity, and Hinduism. Led by Dr. Benjamin Purzycki, a research fellow at the Center for Human Evolution, Cognition, and Culture, the team conducted extensive interviews before the games began.

To play, an individual participant was given money and a two-color die. The researchers instructed the participant to roll the die and drop some coins in their own pot if one color came up. However, if the other color came up, the money was supposed to be placed in a pot for an unknown person who shared their religion in another community. In a second round, the participant was to drop coins into either the cup of a local co-religionist or a distant co-religionist. No one watched as each participant played the game.

Counting the coins in each pot, the researchers discovered participants in both games were more likely to play by the rules and dole out more coins to others if they believed in a god who knew about people’s thoughts and behavior, and punished for wrongdoing. By comparison, those who believed in a god who rewarded good behavior were not quite so equally inclined to play fair.

Based on these results, Purzycki and his colleagues say religious beliefs may have been a major contributing factor in the development of highly complex social organizations. Apparently, fear of supernatural punishment helps us remain on the earthly straight and narrow.

The reality is that Mankind causes most of our own suffering by hurting each other. This point was very well conveyed in the following song which was the number one biggest selling single of 1995.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zICb-9m2dGA

The greatest obstacle to human progress is not a technological hurdle but the evil inherent in ourselves. Humans have knowledge of good and evil and with this knowledge we all to often choose evil. Ethical Monotheism and God offer us a framework for overcoming this evil.

Religions trail well behind in the development of ethical and moral frameworks.  The secular thought is leading the pack.  Always had.

Religions simply are forced to adapt and accept the reality.  Some, like Islam, are centuries behind, others, like Christianity, are decades behind.

Accepting women or gays as church leaders/priests or performing abortions would get you killed everywhere on the planet just a few centuries ago.

Christianity did not stop people from burning other people (heretics) at the stake.  They were doing it until late 18th century.

Legal, secular frameworks work quite well and are easy to change.  Unlike the religious dogmas.

Of course, you neglected to mention the atheism religion... which has been around since people became able to hypnotise themselves out of believing in reality.

[iamnotback]

Religion and Progress

The greatest obstacle to human progress is not a technological hurdle but the evil inherent in ourselves. Humans have knowledge of good and evil and with this knowledge we often choose evil.

Collectivism exists because it employs aggregated force to limit evil especially the forms of evil linked to physical violence. Collectivism is expensive and inefficient but these inefficiencies are less than the cost of unrestrained individualism.

I haven't the time to read all the vast information and deep thoughts in this thread.

I just want to comment on some private messaging between myself and CoinCube. I will make a summary statement of something I realized, which I think it applicable to the above quote and also the thread and religion in general.


Leftism is the religion which promises the individual he/she can entirely free, protected, while protecting the right of everyone else to be entirely free and protected.

Sounds very noble right? Read on...

All religions exist to protect the society (and the family) against the defection of the individual. Traditional religions argue that subjugation of some of the "evil" whims of the individual (e.g. extra-martial affairs) is necessary to maximize the success of the society, e.g. children who grow up without their fathers usually do statistically much worse in life in various metrics, including health.

Whereas, in leftism the "evil" is not "protecting the right of everyone else to be entirely free and protected". But what does this really mean? It is double-speak. It really means to steal from production so as to enable people to abandon their moral responsibilities so that the society can be utterly destroyed by hedonism and other ramifications of offering everyone "state-supported freedom" (which is a guaranteed megadeath hell in the future).

But don't dare tell the leftist, atheists that their idealism is corrupt, bankrupt, and disingenuous. They will gut you with a knife if you dare challenge the veracity of their beloved social justice.


"Entirely free" means you can do what ever the fuck you want and there are no NATURAL LAW ramifications (the State will always support your right to do what ever the fuck you want), as long as you support the State's right to protect and economically provide for everyone's right to do what ever the fuck they want. In other words, a "free for all" clusterfuck of political correctness and stealing.

But NATURAL LAW in inviolable. No State can protect every individual from the NATURAL LAW. And if you tell people they can be entirely free (including economic freedom for everyone and every whim), then you have lied.

In short, leftism is a Tragedy of the Commons. Thus is a false religion. It lies. It is Satan's religion.

[iamnotback]

In Mensa Magazine Bruce G Charlton posited three fundamental disadvantages of high IQ .

Charlton’s triad:
1)   Socialism
2)   Atheism
3)   Infertility

So, along with high IQ comes critical thinking skills...

1) Socialism is a no-brainer for intelligent people - it just makes sense to help those less fortunate than yourself
2) Atheism is a no-brainer for intelligent people - it just makes sense...
3) Intelligent parents have no need to produce dozens of brainwashed children... 1-2 smart children are better than 6 stupid ones destined for welfare

Newsflash: Atheists are a minority... you cannot blame the world's problems on 3% of the population... try blaming the 97% (religion) for your problems

Per my definition of the leftist religion, all leftists are atheists whether they admit it or not, because they w(h)or(e)ship the State instead of a God (or NATURAL LAW), as the lord pointed out in 1 Samuel 8 of the Bible. Thus more than 50% of the western world's population are atheists.

Perhaps one the smartest men alive on earth today, Freeman Dyson, is a non-denominational Christian. And btw, the 160 IQ Eric S. Raymond who says Dyson made Eric feel like the slowest one at the dinner table, is an atheist.

You atheists think someone of the intellect of Richard Dawkins has a high IQ, but see how Freeman Dyson dismantled that asshat Dawkins. Dyson obliterated Richard's small minded perspective.

Inter alia, that stuff about Freeman Dyson, talking about the ability to see the bigger picture, wow. I'm nowhere close to Dyson's IQ, and I was in line with Richard Dawkins thinking. Till I read and understood Dyson's response, impressive, to say the least.

Moloch, you are espousing the group evolutionary strategy of those who choose mutual self-destruction. I don't consider that very intelligent.

You think it is intelligent to defect from group evolutionary strategy by lying to yourselves with the religion of leftism. Smart indeed!


P.S. my two posts in this thread today are due to information, research, and insight that CoinCube provided, which stimulated my reductionist mind.

Follow-up:

...

We can objectively conclude that leftism is a group evolutionary strategy which results in eventual (but delayed!) self-destruction of large portions of the group, but that doesn't mean it isn't an effective strategy because culling the herd is probably an effective means of refining the gene pool, i.e. by participating in leftism you can gain some leverage if your individual strategy within the group strategy is effective for your genes surviving the periodic culling of collectivism.

It appears that group evolutionary strategy is a complex issue. It doesn't seem there is one correct strategy. Rather I am leaning towards the view that we are all pursuing (i.e. competing+interopting+cooperating) with a diversity of strategies.

I had written to CoinCube in private that it seems to me that rationality doesn't exist without a framework and choice of values. Good and evil are relative to one's evolutionary strategy, per my point above that even culling the herd could be considered "good" from objective standpoint of the evolutionary resilience of the human race. Damned facts are sometimes abhorrent.

[CoinCube]

So the viewpoint I seem to be coming to is that religion is purely a matter of group evolutionary strategy choice. There can't be only one correct way. Religions are purposefully spreading erroneously selfish propaganda (that their way is the correct way) because it is necessary for the optimization of the group evolutionary strategy― refer to my prior posts yesterday on why we need to play this mind control game in order to control defection as an evolutionary strategy.
...
We can objectively conclude that leftism is a group evolutionary strategy which results in eventual (but delayed!) self-destruction of large portions of the group, but that doesn't mean it isn't an effective strategy because culling the herd is probably an effective means of refining the gene pool, i.e. by participating in leftism you can gain some leverage if your individual strategy within the group strategy is effective for your genes surviving the periodic culling of collectivism.

With this opinion you are making a "religious" choice of your own. You are committing yourself to the belief that religion is not an objective measure of Truth. This inevitably leads to moral relativism and it is moral relativism that can take you to acceptance of slavery or genocide or "culling the herd" as the effective strategy of alpha males. I do not deny that reason can take you to these conclusions. However, before reason and before logic comes a critical metaphysical choice! Make a different choice and reason will take you in a diametrically opposing direction! Other have highlighted this choice to you before.

iamback, I have read about everything you posted.

Congratulations, you are probably more right them wrong and even the wrong is not caused by your intellect but your lack of humanity.

My main question now is if you want to help everyone or if you only feel bad that you haven't been invited to the predator's party.

l3552 was... essentially arguing that your error is not one of intellect but of metaphysics.

Fix your life? Fix your metaphysics
http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2016/06/fix-your-life-fix-your-metaphysics.html

Metaphysics are your fundamental assumptions. These are chosen: they were chosen by you (although you probably weren't aware of choosing them, but just passively accepted them).

Fundamental assumptions are chosen - but they are not arbitrary; because the assumptions have consequences. You can choose whatever you want to believe - but sometimes you will not be able to make yourself live-by these chosen beliefs; and other times you will live by them (including thinking by them) such that they lead to nonsensical and therefore self-refuting outcomes.

The trouble is that in a world where people have stopped thinking- and when their assumptions lead to incoherent, nonsensical conclusions, instead of sorting-out their metaphysics - they just stop thinking (easier to do than ever before in human history - due to the ubiquity of mass media and social media).

Anyway - my point is that if you have certain (very common) assumptions, then you will either have a nihilistic, hope-less and despairing world view --- or else you will have to stop yourself thinking about anything serious.

There are innumerable commonly-held assumptions that lead to this: that Man has no free will, that the world is either random and unpredictable or else rigidly predetermined, that nothing exists except what has been described by 'science', that morality is a matter of opinion, that beauty is wholly in the eye of the beholder... oh, there are dozens of such.

Indeed, most of people's primary assumptions nowadays are of a type that lead to nonsensical or incoherent conclusions - so it is futile to complain about the low standard of rational public debate when rational debate is only possible on the basis that people are able and willing to examine and revise their assumptions when they lead to absurd outcomes.

Because perhaps the most absurd modern metaphysical assumption of all is that metaphysics is meaningless and all decisions should be made on the basis of 'evidence'!

Whereas (as quickly becomes apparent in any disagreement) unless there is agreement on metaphysical assumptions then the cannot even be agreement on what counts as evidence, leave aside the matter of evaluating the strength of evidence...

[Mersedes]

https://scontent.fadl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15356667_1322081751199640_7210045300246232144_n.jpg?oh=421ba4583da22e3cc4121e446462d3bf&oe=58E9C88A

Perhaps when you start to formally accept the existence of God, then I might answer your question here.

So you're saying that you'll be forgiven and saved after your death but not while you're alive? After death.. when you die and and no way to return or communicate with the people that are alive. Are you that ignorant not to get it?

Don't understand how religious leaders can inspire people in the head with such nonsense? The person lives in order to live after death,but no evidence that it is really not.

[BADecker]

https://scontent.fadl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15356667_1322081751199640_7210045300246232144_n.jpg?oh=421ba4583da22e3cc4121e446462d3bf&oe=58E9C88A

Perhaps when you start to formally accept the existence of God, then I might answer your question here.

So you're saying that you'll be forgiven and saved after your death but not while you're alive? After death.. when you die and and no way to return or communicate with the people that are alive. Are you that ignorant not to get it?

The fact that life exists shows that forgiveness is effective while we are alive.

[Indijanos]

https://scontent.fadl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15356667_1322081751199640_7210045300246232144_n.jpg?oh=421ba4583da22e3cc4121e446462d3bf&oe=58E9C88A

Perhaps when you start to formally accept the existence of God, then I might answer your question here.

So you're saying that you'll be forgiven and saved after your death but not while you're alive? After death.. when you die and and no way to return or communicate with the people that are alive. Are you that ignorant not to get it?

The fact that life exists shows that forgiveness is effective while we are alive.

Sorry, I had to bump in. Are you saying that the fact that we're alive is the proof of forgiveness? So why didn't God forgive Adam and Eve for eating the apple?