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1021  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Communist Bitshares Wealth Redistribution IS THEFT! on: January 09, 2015, 04:42:53 PM
Maybe a distributed system?

It is easier than "Bitshares is a decentralised system, accepting that you agree with our definition of decentralisation based on capping the nodes to a figure our founder believes gives 'enough' decentralisation".

That's a true statement but a bit awkward to say in a headline or a quick post.  Smiley


Then it is misleading at best or plain wrong at worst.

If I said...

"Bitshares has Smart Contracts, accepting you agree with our definition of having smart contracts based on the planned implementation our founder believes will be launched any day now".

...would you think it reasonable if I repeatedly posted..

"Bitshares has Smart Contracts" ? You have to accept my skewed definition for it to be true, but I also omit the definition I am using. It makes reasonable people believe you have Smart Contracts when you don't.


There are established definitions already, skewing them is misleading.


Two tiered in the sense that those with the stake has to cede control to a smaller minority. They can change the minority whenever they please but they will never be representing themselves in the network. See above about the use of decentralised.



I am not arguing who is the most decentralised, it is you who keeps trying to reframe the argument rather than answering it. I refer only to how Bitshares is described. I can't accept your definition of decentralised because it isn't, in any circles I have moved in in crypto. So you can understand why people (the OP) think you are misleading others.
1022  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Communist Bitshares Wealth Redistribution IS THEFT! on: January 09, 2015, 04:12:13 PM
Maybe a distributed exchange?

It is easier than "Bitshares is a decentralized exchange, accepting that you agree with our definition of decentralization based on capping the nodes to a figure our founder believes gives 'enough' decentralization".
1023  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Communist Bitshares Wealth Redistribution IS THEFT! on: January 09, 2015, 03:31:37 PM
BitShares is a decentralized exchange with unique financial products.

You keep saying this. Bytemaster keeps saying this. The problem is, it doesn't appear to be true.

Remember the colour charts above? How can a system that caps the number of nodes to a small percentage of participants be decentralised? Let alone, more decentralised than a network that can sustain 'n' nodes.


Maybe we can finish addressing this point before going onto others.




1024  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [NXT] The Nxt Technology Tree - Monetary System mainnet release @ block 330000 on: January 09, 2015, 02:22:32 PM
~1 min is the average. If you check https://nxtblocks.info/#section/blockexplorer_blocks, you can see the time between blocks.

Looking now, the shortest recent block time I see is 3 seconds, longest is over 6 minutes. There are blocks that come in in 1 seconds, occasional super long blocks will take 20 minutes. Bitcoin is the same but has an average ~10min block with a similar variance, some will come in in a minutes and others might take more than an hour. The variance is a feature of all decentralised cryptos. The quoted blocktimes are the average.

A planned feature of full Transparent Forging will be every block will be exactly 60 seconds and stop this variance.
1025  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [NXT] The Nxt Technology Tree - Nxt's Sidechains mainnet release @ block 330000 on: January 09, 2015, 01:05:18 PM
You could also add the wiki link in the OP.

Done   Grin
1026  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [NXT] The Nxt Technology Tree - Nxt's Sidechains mainnet release @ block 330000 on: January 09, 2015, 12:27:00 PM
Countdown to Monetary System >>> http://jnxt.org/countdown/?block=330000

...added to OP.

Approximately 1 day, 6 hours, 42 minutes from this post  Grin
1027  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [NXT] The Nxt Technology Tree - Nxt's Sidechains mainnet release @ block 330000 on: January 09, 2015, 12:23:14 PM
quick question, how long are the confirmation times in MS?

Another good question, I assume the same as Nxt as it is part of the same system so ~1min.


I will check.
1028  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [NXT] The Nxt Technology Tree - Nxt's Sidechains mainnet release @ block 330000 on: January 09, 2015, 11:03:56 AM
New Wiki-guide to Monetary System

There is now a Nxt Wiki guide for the Monetary System, based on lyaffe's documentation.


At block 330000 Monetary System will be launched
1029  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Communist Bitshares Wealth Redistribution IS THEFT! on: January 09, 2015, 10:48:02 AM
...
Let's be honest.  How much does it really cost to run a forging node 24/7/365?  AROUND $30 A YEAR!  Most users run their computers anyway and have unlimited bandwidth.  Even if a business cannot ROI forging with their stake, do YOU REALLY THINK $30 A YEAR WOULD STOP THEM?  That's simply considered a business expense.
...

Because DPOS - BitShares transaction takes ~10 sec to confirm (in case is 50 delegates in a row miss the blocks - 8 min), I hear that Nxt devs promise to implement something similar, do they do it? If not yet, try to think how it's possible to implement same transaction speed using current Nxt forging.
Can you share with us the current transaction confirmation time in Nxt?

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/28350/what-is-the-block-confirmation-time-for-nxt-coin

Quote
Transactions are being included into blocks in 1 minute in average. Longer you wait - higher a chance that a double-spending won't happen. There is no such a number that guarantees 100% irreversibility.

1 confirmation is not secure at all. 10 confirmations is recommended for small amounts, 720 confirmations - for big ones.

Security is based on time so ten 1 min Nxt blocks = one 10 min BTC block. It is an initial number to ensure Nxt is at least a secure as BTC. As it says in the post, there is no such a number that guarantees 100% irreversibility in a decentralised system. Until Instant Transaction, this is what all decentralised systems have to work with.

Bitshares uses Ripples distributed, less trustless system. The network only has to monitor 101 nodes rather than x that occur in an uncapped decentralised network so it allows faster transactions with less chance or reversal. That's great, but if I wanted that I would have bought into Ripple.

Ripple also doesn't cap the number of nodes in the network, AFAIK, so you could make a case that maybe Ripple's distributed system is closer to decentralisation than Bitshares distributed system. But neither are.
1030  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: NXT is dying :-( on: January 09, 2015, 10:30:31 AM
Updated my post > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=917508.msg10089534#msg10089534
1031  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: NXT is dying :-( on: January 09, 2015, 09:02:17 AM
Sorry, didn't realise this thread had some serious questions in it Cheesy


Nxt has been open source since the day it was released, it was a single unobfuscated java class file. You just decompiled it.

Official open source was in March 2014, almost a year. Every version of the software released has come with the source code bundled with it so you can compile it yourself, if required. Development branches are private to stop clones releasing untested software that has been released on Nxt's testnet.

Technically, NXT has never been closed source

Damelon has already posted about our "anonymous dev" Kushti here:

Quote
Have a look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMSA5W7jx1E&feature=youtu.be

It's an open Q&A with one of our core devs. Anonymous?

Here is his blog > http://chepurnoy.org/ Alexander Chepurnoy



Monetary System will allow MScoin to MScoin trading. InstantDEX is third party by JL777 (i.e. not a core feature). That is the buety of Nxt, anyone can build on top of it. It will give 2-5 sec transactions when it is released, coupled with Multigateway you will be able to trade crypto to crypto. Think of Monetary System for MSCoin to MSCoin trading 'inside' Nxt, and InstantDEX for cryptos 'outside' of Nxt ecosystem (but still through the Nxt platform)

Quote
can currencies in monetary system be used to buy assets in the nxt asset exchange?
Good question, I don't know the answer. My inclination would be yes but not right away.
1032  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Communist Bitshares Wealth Redistribution IS THEFT! on: January 08, 2015, 10:12:46 PM
Worst case of selective blindness I've ever seen...  Undecided
1033  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Communist Bitshares Wealth Redistribution IS THEFT! on: January 08, 2015, 09:38:41 PM
Nxt could also be bolted on to MMO games to run in the background of say skyrim.

You missed this bit. No additional cost, many extra nodes. An encrypted messaging app or similar is more likely to take off though before this is finished development. Whatever the market decides.
1034  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Communist Bitshares Wealth Redistribution IS THEFT! on: January 08, 2015, 09:27:26 PM
I think you missed the first paragraph - cost of a node is negligible to a business. They already have servers running 24/7 for any payment processors they run. Nxt could also be bolted on to MMO games to run in the background of say skyrim. Bytemasters post is a strawman.

Forging is not designed for making profits, it is for securing the block chain only. This was very hard for people to accept.
1035  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Communist Bitshares Wealth Redistribution IS THEFT! on: January 08, 2015, 08:11:04 PM
Yes, I think you missed this post. Not to worry, everyone else is ignoring it too...


@OP  you claim NXT is more decentralized, can you respond to specific points here?  http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/article/2015/01/07/The-Most-Decentralized-Proof-of-Stake-System/

Bytemaster's entire argument falls apart when you take into account that businesses using any payment platform will be running their hardware anyway and therefore, the cost of running a PoS node is negligible.

But, let's assume for argument's sake that a node will ONLY forge if it can recoup its operating cost off of transaction fees alone.

An intelligent node operator will use an energy-efficient device (~20W) to forge.  You can get some fairly powerful computers running at ~20W.  Let's say a forger uses a 35W computer.

35W * 24 hours / 1000w/kW * $0.10 kWh = $0.084

It costs the node operator 8.4 cents per day.

Currently, NXT is worth over 1.7 cents.  He needs to generate 8.4/1.7 = 4.94 NXT per day to breakeven.

NXT's current average daily transaction fees amount to 5,095 NXT.

4.94 / 5095 = 0.000969808

The node operator needs to forge 0.0969% of all blocks.  We can now calculate the amount of NXT he needs to have by multiplying by the total amount of NXT.

0.000969808 * 1,000,000,000 = 969,808 NXT

The node operator must own 969,808 NXT to breakeven forging on a 35W computer.

Now, let's calculate how many forgers the NXT network can support running 35W computers.

1,000,000,000 / 969,808 = 1031

The NXT network can currently support ONE THOUSAND AND THIRTY-ONE 35W nodes.

Bytemaster's argument that as the network scales profitability decreases is fallacious, because the number of transactions increase proportionally to the transaction fees per block.  Therefore, if a forger would be required to run a more computationally powerful node, he would be able to afford to do so.  Bytemaster takes his argument to ridiculous extremes claiming that to process 1000 tps, you would need a server with 256GB of RAM, 2TB of expendable hard drive space per week and a synchronous 64Mbps connection.  Most people in the developed world have asynchronous residential internet connections that are close to or above this speed.  I fail to see why such a connection would need to be synchronous as the nodes would be downloading 1000 tps per second, but would only need to publish ONE block if they managed to forge it.  2TB of blockchain space per week seems extreme.  Bitcoin's blockchain is only 31 GB after six years.  If blockchain sizes increased to such a size, I imagine some type of blockchain shrinking would be implemented.  As time goes on and Moore's law continues, computational power and ram get cheaper, more efficient and more powerful.  By the time any cryptocurrency reaches 1000 tps, which I imagine will take years, the hardware landscape will have completely changed and the cost/power ratios of hardware will be even more efficient.  If you take into account the ability for nodes to figure out who the next forger is (aka NXT Transparent Forging) and route transactions only to that node, it makes Bytemasters' node requirements even more asinine.

It seems limiting forgers to 101 necessitates that the forgers run more powerful hardware to handle the load.  Each forger has to produce 0.99% of all network blocks and therefore consumes more bandwidth and electricity.  It also seems to decrease the resiliency of the network by placing the ENTIRE load on 101 individuals/computers.  This make the network an easier target for DDOS attacks too.

I don't see the necessity in centralizing a PoS system.  As others have stated, DPoS is a solution in search of a problem.  When one considers that there is no such problem to solve, they must ask themselves why was such a "solution" introduced.  As I have stated before and will continue to ascertain, it is my belief that the ONLY reason DPoS was chosen for Bitshares was to force centralization on its stakeholders, disenfranchise them of their forging profits and subject them to tax via inflation.  In addition, since DPoS is vulnerable to Sybil attacks and Stan Larimer has stated that it is acceptable for multiple delegates to be controlled by one individual, one can assume that it is the intention of the Bitshares' developers and business interests, which they have a vested interest in, to establish a type of delegate monopoly over the system.  Whereby, they continue to increase their profits at the expense of existing shareholders.  One may ask, why do they need to strip tx fees from stakeholders and impose inflation on them when they already hold, I am sure, a great amount of stake themselves.  The only rational explanation I can give you is that it is unfettered greed and a desire to maintain total control over the system via a delegate monopoly under the guise of free elections.  Ask yourself, since the network can clearly support more than 101 forging nodes, why are elections necessary?

I could sit here all day and debate back and forth with Stan and others who support Bitshares, but in the end, everyone has to form their own opinion on what the Bitshares' devs and business interests are really trying to accomplish with this venture.  Some people might call me a "troll", but the fact is that I intentionally made this post inflammatory to draw attention to what I believe is a threat to the original movement of Bitcoin, NXT and decentralization.  There is no greater threat to decentralization than corporatization masquerading as such.  The corporatization of the Bitcoin movement is what destroyed it.  I don't want to see that same fate happen to the cryptocurrency scene in general.  I don't want to see people fall victim to what I believe are faux movements.  The day when corporations take over the blockchain is the day our freedom dies.  I will admit to being a holder of both BTC and NXT.  If you believe that has skewed my viewpoint, so be it; but believe me when I say, I supported these movements not only in the hopes of making profit, but also because I believed in the ideology behind them.  It is my contention that Bitshares' imposed inflation on stakeholders is nothing less than taxation without representation.  You may say, "I can vote for delegates.  How is it without representation?"  I argue it is without representation because you yourself do not forge on your own behalf and instead are forced to hand over the security of your investment to business interests and developers who believe it is their right to be forever delegates and can easily manipulate the vote to form a permanent monopoly over the system.  Monopoly is the nemesis of free enterprise.  Why should a select group of 101 businesses get stakeholder subsidies?  What about the smaller businesses users might want to start?  Such users are forced to pay a tax to their competitors and fund their operations without such an advantage.  Your "freedom to choose" really isn't freedom at all, because all your choices result in you becoming a tributary slave to the delegates.
1036  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Communist Bitshares Wealth Redistribution IS THEFT! on: January 08, 2015, 06:53:52 PM
... and fewer plugs for Bytemasters blog posts.

I'm an answer questions asked guy. Call me old fashioned...
1037  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Communist Bitshares Wealth Redistribution IS THEFT! on: January 08, 2015, 03:47:03 PM
So did you concede Bitshares isn't decentralised? I stopped reading at the first plug for the forum.
1038  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Join the Dots: "Nxt" name is temporary, "Unfair" distribution was deliberate on: January 08, 2015, 01:10:12 PM
I propose HoldyourbreathwithyourheadbetweenyourlegsandexhaleasyoustandupquicklyCoin

Symbol would be the easy mnemonic HYBWYHBYLAEAYSUQ. We can call them HYBWYHBs for short.
1039  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Join the Dots: "Nxt" name is temporary, "Unfair" distribution was deliberate on: January 08, 2015, 12:51:38 PM
so...  what would NXT's next name be?  

Community will decide.

Quote
...and to what purpose was making the "unfair" distribution deliberate.

To create highest chance of a successful launch based on the Pareto principle for initial distribution phase. "A courtyard common to all will be swept by none".

Community will decide when the bootstrapping phase is over. BCNext had his own idea but we don't need to follow.
1040  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: "Nxt" name is temporary, "Unfair" distribution was deliberate on: January 08, 2015, 11:55:15 AM
You're going in the wrong direction. Whether they are or aren't is irrelevant to the development of Nxt I'm being annoyingly cryptic about  Grin This isn't a conspiracy theory thread, there are enough of those  Cheesy


This is a join the dots > deeper understanding thread.
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